re using water

[scott bowler]

hi i used to breed about ten years ago and we realy didnt worry about water we use to buy it for a 20000lt tank so when we did water changes the old water went out on the lawn day with changes. at the moment i have two tanks up and runing ang when changing water i just pump it on to the front lawn how ever i am playing with the idea of doin a bit of breeding again so have got hold of 4 more 4ft tanks and was wounder if ther is ways to re use the water that i change so i dont waste it. , i was thinking about things like carbon filters with uv and things like that so if any on can help please drop me a line thanks guys.. :idea:

[Ben]

If you were thinking about doing it I would recommend running the old water through a reverse osmosis unit. This will take out %99.9 of the impurities but of course the RO water will need to be buffered with minerals etc.

[Robdog]

And I believe that when using and RO system there is alot of water wastage anyway. Unless the waste water is plumbed back into the system somehow it probably wouldn't be worth it.

[scott bowler]

thanks guy just trying to come up with something ill keep working on it there must be some way that is cost effective to reuse water for our tanks .i know i waste alot and im a gardener so i know how that can be wrong.

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi Scott,

We are also very conscious of the water we use so we are seriously thinking about sinking a bore. We're very lucky here as the drilling guys tell us that we could just about run our home on bore water and not treat it at all, it's that pure. I know that's not the case everywhere though, some places it's unuseable.

I think all of us who have any more than just a few tanks are going to have to come up with something in the not too distant future as the water situation is not improving, it's getting worse.

I started to plan a way of running waste water into a dam/pond, rejuvenating it with reeds and plants and reusing it but it can't really be done without plenty of room on your property. I never came up with any detail as we can't do it where we are anyway but I reckon it could be done with the right system and filtration prior to it going back to the tanks.
MAC

[scott bowler]

hi mac firstly i got some breeders choice pellets yesterday at baulkham hills(waterzoo) it seems to be good the fish like it .so we'll give it a go for a while ,ok back to the water we should be able to do some thing becouse you see the water that we put in the tanks know and the water that we drink gose though filtration and that is ok. there must be a way for us to do it on a smaller scale . but we need to work out how the water is treated .well im my try a few things and see how i go will keep you informed

[elvip]

Hi Scott,
I've been thinking the same thing about recycling used water as well - there must be a way of doing it - but I haven't had a chance to really sit down and think about/work it out.

I have thought of:
- initially running the waste water siphoned out of the tank through a wool type of filter first to remove any course waste particles
-then a carbon filter (as RO wastes too much water and defeats the purpose) to remove any traces of copper, Cl etc
- then a nitratereductor filtration system to remove any nitrates (I have heard that duckweed can do a similar job).
- perhaps another biological filter - not sure about this one yet??
- finally a UV steriliser.
I would mix some fresh water in with the recylced water and add water treatments (Prime etc) to ensure the safety of the water.

Hopefully all these steps would remove the majority if not all the nasties - but as I said, have to think about it a little more. I would be interested to see what other forum members opinions are on this.

Cheers
Elvip :D

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi Elvira, again lol!

As said above I have been thinking about this on and off for a while and I have come to the conclusion there has to be far more to fresh water than taking the nasties out ie Ammonia/Nitrite/Nitrate/metals etc. Have you ever noticed the dimeanor of your fish after doing a water change? Even if you are running a system with zero Ammonia, Nitrite and little Nitrate they still seem to be far happier straight after a water change, the juves seem to be far more active and the adults get jiggy with it and do the cichlid thing, hassle each other for partners. I believe there has to be something else in fresh water that they benefit from. If only I could get one to talk for a minute!

A very interesting subject.
MAC

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi Scott,

Glad your fish like Breeders Blend pellets, the next batch will have a mixture of sinkers and floaters so I hope they will do an even better job. Regardless, you can't go past the Naturose content, in my opinion there is not a better product, not only for colour but for overall health, on the planet.

Also, thanks for the support mate, it's very much appreciated.
MAC

[scott bowler]

hi elvira yeah thats what i was thinking the same sort of thing with all that and more .willm have to try some test and see what we come up with scott

[elvip]

Hi Scott,
Please keep up posted - it will be interesting to see what you come up with :D
Cheers
Elvip

[scott bowler]

ok guys im still playing with this idea but i need some help finding out what ever thing can do . eg uv filter can kill all the bacteria and carbon can take out the elements but it is short lived . and a sand filter will take out heavy mater so how can we put it all together and make it reuse able .any ideas i wes going to get a tank (1000Lt or so )and run the water from my tanks it to it as i change the water . it would be in the sun and store it ther then run it through some filters back to the ageing barrels just dont know what order and how to test it all at the end . see how i go input is welcome guys thanks scott

[Merrilyn]

Scott, I've been thinking along the same lines.

There must be some way to reuse the water, and there must be some way to filter out all the impurities. RO won't cut it. There is too much waste water involved.

We need some of our technical guys to put their heads together.

Contributions please, ladies and gentlemen.

[mistakes r crucial]

I still refer to the above post Scott. I think its a great idea recycling water but I reckon there is still a whole lot more we don't know. There is much more to fresh water than just no Ammonia/Nitrite/Nitrate IMO. I'm just going on my experience with my own fish, you have a system/tanks fully cycled without any parameter problems and yet when you change water the fish love it. Why?? Until we find the answer to that nothing is going to substitute fresh water, there has to be something they are getting from unused water.
MAC

[scott bowler]

i saw on teley the other night that a guy as come up with a system that is glass and the water is run though apipe in the sun evapourates and is cought by a glass screen then runs in to a holding tank but for the amount of water that we need it may take to long for a small amout .but it got me thinking that the sun can be part of something we come up with. that would get ride of the need for uv . so ill see how we go ,thank you re responding im glad im not the only one and i do know that im not , looking it to this thing

[mistakes r crucial]

No you're not Scott, it's a major concern for all of us in this country of ours. I just wish we had all the answers but alas we don't, hopefully we will and sooner rather than later.
MAC

[samir]

i saw on teley the other night that a guy as come up with a system that is glass and the water is run though apipe in the sun evapourates and is cought by a glass screen then runs in to a holding tank
it wouldn't work for fish as that would be distilled water.

[scott bowler]

i have some 20lt olive drums air tight i think imgoing to try and make some filters out off them with diffrent things and see how much water i can put throw them . ill need a good pump .

[Robdog]

Samir how different is the quality of distilled water to RO water??

[elvip]

Hi Scott,
This topic is also something I have thought about and asked around about, and so far have come up with the term Aquaponics:
'...the system most in use would be aquaponics,which recycles water over and over again,it is used mainly in large scale set ups ,however there are a lot of varients.backyard set ups ect.
if you google aquaponics there should be a heap of info. on the subject.
gardening australia run a segment,and has a fact sheet available.
www.aquaponics.com should get you started,on the general workings/then a bit of modifying and planning to suit your needs ect.would be needed.'
I still haven't had a chance to look into this, but it seems like a good reference point to start at.
Keep us posted Scott, likewise I will let you know if I come up with any further info/ideas.
Cheers
Elvip

[scott bowler]

thanks elvip ill look in to it and see what i can do , im a gardener and understand aquaponics just trying to put it in to practice with fish tanks may be a lilttle harder but will see what we can come up with thanks again

[k9outfit]

We're out on an acreage and have water hauled into a cistern. With the w/c I'm doing, we're going through about 2000 gallons of water a week! :shock: Therefore, I've also been thinking about recycling to placate the "other half"....

Shouldn't a ton of plants, aquatic and terrestrial (think pothos or something is the one everyone mentions), in the recycling tank be an integral part of the filtration process? Think people sometimes have terrestrial plants sitting either in their sumps, or have the plants on top of the tank, with roots trailing into the water.

[Robdog]

A Canadian saving water?? :? You guys have about 30% of the whole worlds freshwater right in your backyards! All you have to do is melt it :lol: :wink:

[DiscusEden]

There was a guy on Gardening Australia recently (last 3 months I think), who had a setup in his backyard in suburban Adelaide where he covered the whole area with something - shadecloth or perspex - then underneath had a series of small (less than 2m diameter) water tanks on the ground, with various size fish (maybe perch) in them, which he grew to eat.

The water ran through each of these tanks in turn, then into a series of trays which took up the rest of the backyard. He had a stable growth medium (maybe gravel, looked like mini bio-balls), again the trays were of differing depths. Some ornamental/flowering plants at the start, edible plants toward the end of a very large series. He ran it as a closed system & claimed that it met nearly all of his needs.

I'm pretty sure it was written up in their magazine, or might be on their website.

You'd think if the water was clean enough for him to eat the fish & veg, it might be alright for our fish? Then again, perch live in stinky dams and I don't know discus could.

Sorry for the long post.

[scott bowler]

DE i think this is the site on the show that you were saying that you saw . this is the guys web site very intresting read it can work that way and looks good will have to see if the water is good for discus .thanks DE i looked up the garden site and it gave me the site http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/

[DiscusEden]

No worries Scott, and thanks for doing the legwork.

[k9outfit]

A Canadian saving water?? You guys have about 30% of the whole worlds freshwater right in your backyards! All you have to do is melt it
Unfortunately, not in our backyard. :( The water's about 3 provinces further east; we're out on the bald @$$ prairie here, and drought is an ongoing issue. (We're the province with the oil... though doubt the fishies would like w/c with that... :wink:) And melting snow, well, first we have to get some; though this year we got tons! It's horribly inefficient, and it's only available a few months of the year.

We're paying astonomical amounts for water, therefore the interest in recycling the stuff. :)

[scott bowler]

i think its a good thing and we should all look at ways to save water . there is a number of countrys that should look at it or have the same thing happen to them as is happening here . it is said that our drinking water is so low here that we only have a small amount to get us though the next few years . this is some thing that we should have been doing 20 years ago , hope its not to little to late so good on you and best of luck ..

[scott bowler]

guys i was looking at the site that i posted and there is a book and dvd avalible im going to buy it and have a look ill let you all know when i have had a look . how ever it does look like this is some thing that can work .like i said before though i dont know if the water quality is going to be good for our fish but we can try angd see how it goes . i would try it on a smaller scale and see it my need a bigger area but i can only try .

[samir]

what do you think of this

R. R. Roales (1981)
The effect of growth inhibiting factors on the total lipid content of the zebrafish, Brachydanio rerio (Hamilton-Buchanan)
Journal of Fish Biology 18 (6), 723–728.

The effects of growth inhibiting factors on the total lipid content of zebrafish was studied. Crowded zebrafish were subjected to extraction of the aquarium water using activated charcoal. Control fish were crowded, but were not subjected to extraction. This resulted in a gain in mean wet weight of 10.9% for the crowded, extracted fish (experimentals) as compared to the controls. In order to determine the effects of crowding on the total lipid content of the crowded fish, lipid analyses were conducted at the conclusion of the growth studies. These studies indicate that the fish in the extracted system had a greater lipid content than those in the-non-extracted system (15.4% v. 10.4% mean lipid). It is proposed that growth inhibiting factors libeerated from the crowded fish may affect the thyroid gland, causing lipid mobilization from the tissues resulting in resulting in lowered total lipid in these animals. Extraction of the aquarium water with activated charcoal removes the growth inhibiting factor, possibly decreasing thyroid function with a resulting higher total lipid content.

[scott bowler]

thats handy to know so i guess if we were to put charcoal in our filter that im trying to make going by this it would have to be at the start and then every thing else after .or maybe not at all i dont know weather thats good or bad

[scott bowler]

i dont run charcoal in my filter here at home at all never have .

[samir]

me neither, I've heard both good and bad about activated charcoal. i never use it.
maybe I'll do some evil experiments on a batch of fry :twisted:

[scott bowler]

yeah that may be the go its good to read all the info but in practice it might be diffrent , iknow these guys do it but there might be some thing that is a little diffrent .will have to have a look at that one

[the german]

activated charcoal is good for get medications out of your water but there is one big problem with it:when it has it maximum capacaty and you dont take it out it will empty its full load back into the water!!!

[elvip]

My impression with charcoal is that you have to be careful in using it with discus - as is it can strip all the trace elements out of the water and therefore harden it - and as you know, discus like soft water - therefore water hardness needs to be monitored and trace elements replaced.
Also I have been told that recycling water through charcoal alone will not remove all the nasties - although it certainly could form an integral part of the recycling process.
I was thinking that if you could reccyle the 'used' fish water and then combine 3/4 of that recycled water with 1/4 of fresh/tap water to replace any trace elements etc - this way you would still be saving some water as well as ensuring your fish are (hopefully) getting all the trace elements etc that they need.
Cheers
Elvip

[scott bowler]

yeah all those things are good we can get around a lot of them . charcoal has its good points. yeas it is good after meds and it will take out alot of things we need to get out of water .like german said if left to long it will put it back ,so we will have to work out the life of it to make it part of the systeim that im teying out .but samir also showed us a good point in that some tests on fish Extraction of the aquarium water with activated charcoal removes the growth inhibiting factor , so is that we will have bigger fish or will it do something else to them , if you have a look at what samir posted it intresting and makes you think

[scott bowler]

as a point how long do people leave there charcoal in there filters for any ideas ?

[Merrilyn]

Carbon has a very short life Scott. Ten to fourteen days, and then it has to be replaced.

[scott bowler]

thanks Merrilyn

[samir]

the article suggests that activated charcoal would remove growth inhibitor, which could possibly mean that someone running a system with a nitrate filter combined with charcoal filtration and addition of trace elements, could reduce the need for the huge water changes required for growing out fry.
there was a post by Squid(i think) about an experiment where they had one tank with daily water changes and one with every single filter known to man, and the ones with the filters grew faster. cant find it now.

[scott bowler]

so is that going to lead to othe probes though it will give us larger fish even quicker . but will it give us a prob with long life or short one .

[samir]

If it does actually work it should reduce the need for water changes. the fish should grow at the same rate as fish with multiple water changes. if you could remove the crowding factor (growth inhibitor) and the entire components of the nitrogen cycle ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, then even a monthly water change is a likely possibility.
why we need fresh water is because of the presence of this "crowding factor". If activated charcoal can actually remove it as suggested in the article from the journal then,when combined with good filtration, there should be no need for frequent water changes.

[scott bowler]

well that would be nice will have to give it a go and see what happens . did it say any thing about how long i takes to take the crowding factor out or is it over time ?

[scott bowler]

here is a basic diagraim of a aqaponic system

[mistakes r crucial]

I posted around 12 months ago about a shop owner that a mate of mine knows who run thousands of litres of water and hadn't changed it in 2 years. Someone answered and said that they would be changing water by topping up each week due to evaporation which is fair enough, but, if they are only using a few hundred litres each week out of, from memory I think around 20,000 litres, then I think they have achieved what everyone is talking about here, vastly reduced water usage.

His filtration system is huge and he's a bit of a filtration guru but something that is relevant to part of this thread is that he has a very large carbon filter as part of his system. He's not breeding or growing out of course, just holding in the shop but his tanks are some of the best I've ever seen, the water is always crystal and according to him his losses are way less than the industry average. I think he changes his carbon once a fortnight.

The jpeg is a basic diagram of what I was going to set up if I decided to stay with a closed sump system when we move and this was on the advice of above guru. The difference to what I use now are the carbon and 5 micron filters. I was told this system would negate the need for as many W/C big time, I suppose time will tell!

There are 21 x 4ft tanks on this system and a 400 litre sump so around 5,500 litres of water. It uses 2 Onga pumps, a 29,000 litre an hour and a 10,000 litre to take water out of the sump and up in to the degassing chambers. The big pump pushes water through a carbon filter (Onga swimming pool filter), then a 5 micron filter and then through a 4 stack of UV's and into the tanks. The return then takes it back to the sump and through 5 trays of media. It works well now but it was pure helll getting it to cycle.

I was also considering a drip system for grow outs with no filtration whatsoever changing 100% a day and recycling all water via a dam but I won't bore you stupid, this reply is long enough already.
MAC

[scott bowler]

mac you arent boring me and love to hear about the dam thing .i was wish i was on a acrea or so becouse i wont to run it all to a dam and from there.your mate seems to have had it worked out that is what we wont but we still need to breed and grow out . thanks for the input mate

[mistakes r crucial]

Scott,

Although not tested for growth (I doubt I can do that here anyway, too much hassle) but I reckon it would work. My water, even without the 5 micron and carbon filters is stable and still pretty good even though we've reduced W/C's to a very large extent. A couple of years ago we were changing 60%-70% every day in our growout systems whereas now it's around 20% 3 times a week. No, it's not perfect and it takes probably an extra month or so to get juves to saleable size but it's not all about speed and money.

I'll put a diagram together of what I had in mind but please don't ask for detail as it needs far more thought but the general ideas are there.
Cheers
MAC

[mistakes r crucial]

Scott,

This is the system I was thinking about for growouts but we would have to be on acreage which is our intention sooner or later.

2 x 10,000 litre tanks with the first one being fed from the dam. The dam would have to have certain types of reeds planted in it that purify water. Not sure what they are called but I do know they are out there and available.

The first tank would be filtered with both chemical (carbon) and mechanical filtration to take any debris out of the water. The carbon would be used to make sure any run off into the dam did not contain any ferts or other chemicals. The line in the first tank would be split so that water can be directed to the 2nd tank instead of through the filtration, just a ball valve setup, simple.

The second 10,000 litre tank is then used to push water to the tanks. It would have to have a PH controller on it depending on the Ph of the dam water. Alternatively, if the dam's not too big, I suppose the Ph of the dam could be altered with bales of peat or some other method. The water is then dripped in to the tanks changing approximately 100% each day and not a drop of water is wasted.

As with all new systems I'm sure there would be plenty of Gremlins thrown at us for a while but in theory I can't see any reason this wouldn't work. The main concern would be the initial quality of the dam water but when we start looking for a place I will go armed with a Ph pen, a TDS meter, ammonia and nitrite test kits. Needs alot more thought but I think the basics are there. Sorry but I can't get the drawing the right way round, twist your neck :lol:
Cheers
MAC

[scott bowler]

funny thats the same as the idea i had just need the land maybe one day .with the right plants in the dam and the fillter from the first 10000 lt tank it could work well i think . thanks for shareing mac

[DiscusEden]

In case anyone's interested, Gardening Australia is running a repeat of the segment I was rabbitting on about before, with the fish-vegetable water recycling system. It's playing again next week - in SA it's next Saturday (I'm guessing the 10th Feb) at 6.30pm, with a repeat (of the repeat) at 1pm the next day, Sunday. It's a national program, but I don't know what time interstate.

Just in case anyone wants to see it! :wink:

[scott bowler]

thanks DE ill have a look to see if its on here as well in NSW

[samir]

what about nitrate filtration MAC ? do you have a denitrator running ?

[mistakes r crucial]

No mate, nothing for Nitrate, it's never been an issue for us. I've never seen it higher than 5. As far as the new system ideas are concerned it would be even less of an issue as the water on the growouts gets 100% each day, or did you mean for the dam. On second thoughts, you probably did. Haven't thought about that one yet Samir but it well could be an issue couldn't it, dumping all that "old" water back in there. As I said, far from a finished product, needs a lot more thought yet.
MAC

[fishgeek]

red bed technoloy is used to make communiteis have self sufficent water recycling for human consumption in england

basically a gravel trap for sediment and a lot of marsh reds to remove nitrates etc


piggery effluent is treated in a 3 stage manner, with aerobic and anaerobic dams then a final waterfall over fungal elements

it was even suggested many moons ago that the fungal growth in the last stage would be a good protein source for humans... makes quorn come to mind


the aquaponics is more about producing food for peaople both meat and vegetables rather than recycling ater, obviously the water needs to be decent to get fish growth

andrew

[scott bowler]

thank you for your input andrew you are right about aquaponics being about food more then fish ,but we are looking at ways to reuse the water out of the tanks to goback in and growing something like vege or fruit is a bonus and only part of the big pic . i hope to have some thing up and running soon to give me some idea on how things will work . i need to get some trials started so i can work out all the things that need to be in it .

[scott bowler]

if anyone is intrested the gardening Austraila show on aquaponics is on tonihgt 630 on the ABC. this some thing that we have been toying with to see if it can be part of a system for a filter so we can re use water witch is some thing we should all be thinking about . so it should be intresting to see . i just also wont to thank every one that has put in put in to this idea keep up the good work , ill try and put up some pic of the filter i have been trying to work on ..