Does water have a memory...?

[Del]

My tap water (after testing over a 24 hr period) is 7.5.

I reduce it by aging for 2 days with "sera ph minus" to 6.5 (and heating and running an airstone).

After a few days of adding it to both my empty tank (which I am cycling for a breeding tank) and my 3ft planted display tank, it returns to 7.5.

I have read that "water has a memory" so what should I do? What product should I use?

It is really fustrating...!

DEL

[scott bowler]

no not realy do you have carbon in the filter or crush shell or some thing like that in there that may push the ph back up ? scott

[Del]

No carbon in my filter. Tank is 150lt, gravel (already have tested as well), few plants on driftwood, 2213 Eheim filter, UV, been running 4 years as a community tank, last 2 with discus.

[samir]

what is the KH of your water. If its too high you will have a hard time keeping the ph down. you need to find the best way to reduce the KH. You might want to consider just leaving it at 7.5.

[Del]

No Kh test kit - will have to get one...!

Would Seachem Neutral Regulator used in conjunction with Buffer do this job...?

I already use Prime, then add Discus Trace and Flourish Excel (will be adding Excel as well soon)...?

DEL

[flaggy]

Hi Del

The pH will be the result of your KH and CO2 levels. There's a good chart at the end of the article on the following link: http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm

According to this relationship, your options are to reduce KH, or add CO2, if you really want to set a target pH.

If your pre-existing CO2 levels require you to reduce your KH to very low levels in order to get the desired pH, then you should be aware that a very low kH will reduce your buffering capacity and could result in pH crash if you don't keep up the water changes, etc.

Adding too much CO2 above a certain level will not be good for your fish (the chart shows the safe levels).

Seachem Neutral Regulator with Seachem Discus Buffer is supposed to allow you to set the required pH by adjusting their proportions relative to each other. These are Phosphate-based buffers and should be quite stable. However, Phosphate-based buffers could lead to algae-blooms. In a fish-only tank, this should not happen if the amount of light and nitrate levels are kept in control. Apparently, you need to be careful with using this in planted tanks.

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi Del,

You're not wrong, frustrating it is and at the moment we are having the same problems.

For the last 3 years even though our water has a KH of between 0 and 1 depending on the day the Ph has always remained stable. We set it in the low 6's and the only time it has dropped significantly is if we have had an ammonia issue.

Over the last 4 weeks every time we've changed water the Ph has tried to get back to what it is out of the tap, 7.6 - 8. Most of the time I've caught it and rectified it but we have had to check it 4 times a day and lower it loads of times, it seems to creep by .2-.4 every few hours for a day and then levels out and becomes stable at about 6.7.

Can any of the water gurus tell me why this is happening, it's really hissing me off.
MAC

[mistakes r crucial]

According to the web site in Flaggy's link Co2 makes the Ph drop and if you take it out it makes it rise. Answered my question then.

So how do we fix the problem of fluctuating Ph? In another post I made on Degassing towers we were told getting rid of Co2 was a good thing as it is replaced with Oxygen which has to be beneficial. What the filtration guru didn't tell me was that it would make the Ph rise. Do we just have to cop that one on the chin or is there a way of keeping it down without continually adding acid?
MAC

[FishLover]

I found it the hard way too. Everytime I drop in an air stone, my pH shoot up in few hours. That's why I don't use them any more.

I use Discus Buffer to contorl the pH level at 6.3. It works fine as long as you don't plan to breed the discus and you don't have plants in the tank.

I'm no expert. My understanding is that if your kh is low and pH is high, reducing the rate of Co2 escapes from the tank will lower the pH level. The trick is to find a balance point that your fish will be fine with it. In most cases, you don't need to increase the o2 level in the tank if it is not overstocked and with regular WCs. The Co2 will increase with more fish in the tank or longer period between WCs. That's when you may need to add in some ways of increasing O2 level in the tank.

On the other hand, if you have a relatively small bio load in the tank and you do more WCs, the fish in the tank may not produce enough Co2 to start with. The normal gas exchange should be able to keep up with the o2 requirement to support the fish. When some kind of gas exchange is speed up (like air stone or other methods), it will drive Co2 out of the tank faster than the bio load can create, in return, it will increase your pH level.

[elvip]

Hi FishLover,
Just a question for you - I use Seachem Discus buffer in my breeding tanks to keep the pH around 6.4-6.6 and soften the water; yet in your post you state you should not use it for breeding discus - why??
Cheers
Elvip :D

[FishLover]

I never tried breeding myself. Lots of people saying the eggs have a low hatching rate if you use Discus Buffer. If you don't have problem, then you are ok I guess.

[Del]

So my question is... if my water comes out of the tap at 7.5 and I want to lower it to 6... should I use Discus Buffer? And do I need the Neutral Regulator as well...?

I have a planted tank and a pair that lay every 2 weeks or so, in my community tank. Will it be Ok to use this to condition my water...?

Samir - I have not tested the KH of my water but will do so today...

I do find when I lower my tank to 6.5 (and it stays there) the discus and tetras are more active than at 7.5. Could this be right or am I imagining this.

DEL

[elvip]

Hi Del,
My understanding is that Discus Buffer lowers the pH to within acidic range (pH=5.8 -6.8) and should hopefully have the capacity to buffer the water and keep it within this lower pH range.
Neutral Regulator adjusts pH to neutral (pH 7.0) from either a low or high pH and maintains it there, and can be used in combination with Discus Buffer to target a particular pH - see the following link to product guidelines to give you an idea:
http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/DiscusBuffer.html.

Personally I just use Seachem Acid Regulator to lower the pH and then the Discus Buffer to maintain (buffer) the acidic pH range- I tend to keep my water at pH=6.0-6.4.

Hope this helps
Cheers
Elvip :D

[Margo]

I am struggling with the same issues you are all discussing. I have read a lot and talked to a lot of people at lfs, and never really get consistent answers. Probably because there's no perfect answer, I guess.

Anyway, do you know if I can control the Ph AND the hardness with CO2? I have been told that but then someone else told me it will not control the hardness and the discus have problems with hard water regarless of what you do with the Ph.

I was hoping to use CO2 and water just out of the tap. I currently use RO/Tap combination but the RO process wastes so much water I am concerned about the waste. The latest idea I am thinking about is to run the tap water through charcoal for 24 hours, then through peat (which I read about in a book by Degen). Anyone have any experience with this?

[FishLover]

Co2 will not change the hardness at all. It will lower the pH.

Peat can lower your pH. The problem is, if you have hard water, it will bunce back once you stop using peat. Unless you have peat in your filter too. Peat is not an effective way to lower the pH. It is really hard to use peat to target a consistant pH. Plus, it makes your water look like tea. If you don't mind that, then it's ok. It also takes a long time to lower the pH. At least one day or so. Also, it is not a cheap option, at least not for me. Unless you can find peat at the garden stores that don't have fert in it. Peat you get from pet store is not cheap and you have to use a lot in order to lower your pH.

[mistakes r crucial]

Sunshine Peat, which is a Canadian based company, sell bales of peat that are excellent quality and do not have ferts in them. We are able to buy it here in Australia so I'm sure you would have it in the states. We pay $28 AUS for a bale (approx 20kg) so it's very cost effective.
MAC

[Del]

What is your location Margo?

DEL

[Margo]

Del, I am in Minneapolis, U.S.A. I am sure I can find a home brewing establishment and get the container people are talking about.

Not sure what to think abut peat, though, as it sounds like it is not the best way to go. Still, I don't want to use the RO process. I have a 220 US gallon tank and that's a lot of water when with RO you are wasting more than you are producing.

Minneapolis has great, soft water. But I live "south of the river," (Mississippi), and we have the Jordan aquifer, which is very hard water. Maybe I should just not keep discus. My severum tank does fine on tap but my discus seem to be prone to illness even though I do a lot of water changes and keep everything very clean.

Thanks for all your suggestions.

[Margo]

OK, has anyone used PURA Amazon? It is supposed to generate rainforest water. If anyone has any experience, I'd appreciate a comment. Otherwise, I am going to give it a try - on a test tank first - and see what happens over time.

Otherwise thanks again to all for your help.

[Fisher]

I also use Sera Ph minus.I've got the same problem.My first testing of water showed me that ph was 8 degrees.I've put a teaspoon of Sera Ph minus,and the ph of water decreased.But at the next day the ph of water was 8 degrees.Then i put a spoon of Sera Ph minus,and my ph stabilized forewer.It is coused because carbon dioxide is present in the water,and after some time the ph rises.But be careful with adding Sera Ph minus,you can very decreased your ph!