Sick or what?????

[chrissimalta]

My most beautiful discus seems to be sick but is still eating normally. Until a few weeks ago this fish was so happy and looked so healthy. Then it got a kind of cotton wool fungus which I treated with 'Interpet Aquarium Treatment 8 - Anti Fungus & Finrot'. I repeated the dose afte 7 days and a 30% water change. It got over the disease after about 10 days but never really got its bright orange colour back and remained a bit darker than before. After about a fortnight or 3 weeks it started getting darker again and developed a kind of velvet disease and his eyes are not so clear either. A week ago I treated the water with 'Interpet Aquarium Treatment 7 - Anti Slime & Velvet' but it doen't seem to be getting any better. He still eats normally.
The following are the water parameters at the moment:

pH: 6.5
GH: 8
KH: >1 <2
No2: 0
No3: 10
Temp: 30 Celcius or 86 Fahrenheit

I attached a photo of what he looks like now and will attach another taken a few weeks ago when he was looking well.
He is aroung 4" big and is in a 55g tank with another four 4"discus and some neons and cardinals which are all very healthy.

Your help is much appreciated as I would not like to lose my nicest fish.

Thanks in advance for your advice.

Best regards,
Christian

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi Christian,

My guess is that your fish is infected with some type of flagellate but because there are so many different strains it is difficult to know what to treat with.

Obviously the fish is very important to you so my advice would be to take the fish along to a vet as soon as possible and ask them to do a gill and skin scrape so that they can establish which flagellate/s are the problem.

Best of luck with your fish.
MAC

[fishgeek]

darkening can otherwise be associated with neural irritation
any chance of insecticide or other type of product contaminating the tank?
a large water change will certainly aid if those type of things or simple nitrate etc have gone undetected

as mac has suggested protozoal infections will cause darkening though i thought they tended to have gastric effects aswell
or are you meaning costia etc mac?
if it is early in the course then you have the best chance of correcting the problem and an accurate diagnosis is the best way

if you do not have access to a fish competent vet and mac(or others) believes costia is likely(i have no discus experience!) then prehaps untgassers suggestion of increasing temperature to 32 celsius will help(he states that costia can not live above 30 C) he also mentions copper sulphate, alkaline green,acriflavine,nacl,and methylene blue
most of which can be found in proprietary fish medications

andrew

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi Andrew,

I was thinking Costia, Oodinium or possibly a few others but the treatments vary so much its too risky without some confirmation. Christian mentioned fungus too which can appear with Costia according to my books.
MAC

[chrissimalta]

First of all, thank you all for your concern and advice.
Over here we dont really have any fish competent vets (not that I know of at least - you friends are my vets ;-) and I wouldn't like to stress the fish that much at this stage.
Do you think that I should move the fish into a hospital tank and carry out daily or almost daily water changes, increase the temperature to 32 degrees and treat with medication seperately since the others all seem to be healthy?

[chrissimalta]

By the way, my hospital tank is just a 60 litre tank. Is that ok for a fish it's size?
I remember using a more effective medication than the 'Interpet' one which is the 'Waterlife Protozin' and it is given in four seperate applications to complete the course of treatment. This is what it says about it on the Waterlife homepage:

PROTOZIN - protozoacide

PROTOZIN is used for the control of all protozoan and fungal infections e.g Whitespot, Fungus, Neon Tetra Disease, Velvet, Costiasis and Trichodiniasis.

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi Christian,

Daily water changes are going to do it more good than harm and yes, I would move your fish to the 60 litre tank. Waterlife have some good products and as I said before my gut feel is that your fish has Costia so Protozin would be a good start. Just make sure you give it the full treatment and take it from there. Best of luck with it.

Where are you from, the UK? I'm surprised you do not have access to vets with fish knowledge.
Cheers
MAC

[chrissimalta]

Hi MAC,

I am from Malta, the little island below Italy ;-) There could be vets that have fish knowledge, but I don't know of any myself.
The only problem I have with the water changes is that since the medication is given in four doses on days 1,2,3 & 6, if I do a water change in between I will be diluting the strength of the medication.....or should I still perform water changes during the medication?

Regards,
Christian

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi Christian,

You're redosing for the first 3 days so W/C every day is not an issue. I would be changing water every day.
MAC

[elvip]

Hi Christian,
When my fish look like this - it is usually due to Hexamita (spironucleus), a protozoal gut infection. Also, at the same time they usually seem to come down with Velvet (Oodinium) a microscopic parasitic flagellate - secondary infection?? :x Mind you from what I have read - it is difficult to distinguish between Velvet and Costia (also a microscopic parasitic flagellate with similar symptoms to velvet) unless scrapings are done - so it could be a secondary infection of either.

Signs of Hex to keep a look out for are: white fluffy poo ( a good indicator of Hex), darkening of clour (to almost black), isolation (usually in a corner of the tank) , refusal to eat.
I use metronidazole to treat for the Hex and Velvet. Protozin will treat Velvet Costia, but will not treat Hex. Adding salt to the water will also help in treating the Velvet and Costia.
I also increase the temp of the water up to 32 degrees celcius for about 1 week - but just make sure you have sufficient aeration in the tank when you increase temps.
There is a great stick post by Lady red on treating Hex:
http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2475.

Hope this helps
Cheers
Elvip

[chrissimalta]

Hi Elvip,

Thank you for your advice. The symptoms that you have brought up, to do with hex seem to be the symptoms that my fish has, in fact he is dark and is refusing to eat now too, apart from staying in the same corner all day. I have read Lady red's stick post and even the other link that she posted and I will try and buy some Flagyl (Metro...) from the pharmacy tomorrow and see how it goes like that. I'll keep you all posted and thanks again for your advice.

Best regards,
Christian

[chrissimalta]

When treating with the Metro, after carrying out a water change do I repeat the full dose again or the dosage just for the water that I'll be changing, meaning if I change just 5 gallons of water do I put in a quarter of the dosage that I would use for 20 gallons or the full 250mg again?

[chrissimalta]

I hope that somebody could answer this post asap because I don't know how to proceed with medication. I started treating my discus with Metro but after the second dosage he seemed to go crazy in the tank; at first he started darting from one side of the tank to the other almost crashing into the glass, and then he started breathing heavily and stayed at the bottom of the tank and turned black and was almost on his side too. I noticed that some of the Metro that did not dissolve got stuck to his body too. I immediately performed a 20% water change and sucked up the bits that did not dissolve. After that I did not treat him again and I don't know if I should, because it seemed like he was going to die for me. He is eating normally now but I haven't seen him pooing for a long time so I can't really see it's colour either. How should I proceed?

[chrissimalta]

i wanted to thank all those who helped me to cure my fish, he (or she) is healthy as before if not more, and the boss of the tank again with its vibrant colours

[Merrilyn]

Sorry I somehow missed this thread Christian.

I'm so glad that your fish is back to normal and healthy again. Metro is an excellent drug for treating fish, but some of them do have a poor reaction to it in the beginning, but usually get over it fairly quickly.

I'm glad it all worked out for you.

[elvip]

Hi Christian,
Sorry I did not get back to you earlier - but I am glad to hear that your fish has made a full recovery - it is very satisfying when treatment is successful !! :D
I personally have never had my fish react this way to metro - so there you go, I have learnt something as well - some fish initially react poorly!
Just be aware, that the Hex may return (if the fish gets sick or stressed) again - at least now you know what to look for. If it does return - treat ASAP and run the full treatment course.
Cheers
Elvip