Fishless Cycling progress

[ctvu]

Hows the plans for the tank going mate,??
Got any ideas on what size tank you want or what strain of discus?

Its a fun time setting up a discus tank, infact i think i have the urge coming on. :wink:

First thank you Ryan and Marie for welcome me
Second I already got a 4fter tank and at the moment I am doing cycle with 4 big gold fishes. I have not decided yet, but for the start I might get 4 young ones, as you all know this hobby will drive us broke. Let me know when the urge coming on, I might help some thing.

[flukes]

Have you tried fishless cycling mate??
http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=895

Have a read through it and if you have any question, shoot. Makes things a bit easier because once completed you can load the tank up with all the fish you want.

The cycle your doing atm, might not produce enough bacteria for 4 discus and might create ammonia which can be fatal too them.

Just trying too save you trouble in the long run, also alot quicker.

Then if your tank is ready and your not ready for fish you can keep the bacteria alive by adding more ammonia.

Just remember too keep it out of reach from the kiddies and look after your self aswell..

Cheers
Scott

[ctvu]

Have you tried fishless cycling mate??
http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=895

Have a read through it and if you have any question, shoot. Makes things a bit easier because once completed you can load the tank up with all the fish you want.

The cycle your doing atm, might not produce enough bacteria for 4 discus and might create ammonia which can be fatal too them.

Just trying too save you trouble in the long run, also alot quicker.

Then if your tank is ready and your not ready for fish you can keep the bacteria alive by adding more ammonia.

Just remember too keep it out of reach from the kiddies and look after your self aswell..

Cheers
Scott

Hi Scott

Thanks for that, actually I did read this method, but I was not 100% convinced myself, and plus I read many other forums most of them use the old method ie fish cycling. I have been doing for 2 weeks now. I have not got Nitrite, Nitrate test kit, so I don't know what ppm is?
Let me think it over tonight, I might give it a go not for rushing for discus but for the test.

Cheers

ps Have a nice weekend all

[flukes]

Most people dont have the patience for fishless cycling, they hear someone say its quicker than the traditional method and the expect it too be over in a week or 2.

Cycling a tank the traditional way with gold fish will take you at least 4-5 weeks before it is completley finished.

Even if its not quicker than the old way, there is no harm to fish and no chance of them bringing desease too your tank.

Anyway ive preached enough, do it dont, its up too you.

[ctvu]

Most people dont have the patience for fishless cycling, they hear someone say its quicker than the traditional method and the expect it too be over in a week or 2.

Cycling a tank the traditional way with gold fish will take you at least 4-5 weeks before it is completley finished.

Even if its not quicker than the old way, there is no harm to fish and no chance of them bringing desease too your tank.

Anyway ive preached enough, do it dont, its up too you.

Hi Scott

Please don't be like that, I really appreciated your help, this morning I could not find the powder thing from Safeway, for the time being I returned the gold fish to the owner and I took things from his tank such as gravel, plants, and sponge from his filter as well, and I let my filter run without fish. I'll try some differrent store tomorrow. Thanks

[Merrilyn]

ctuv now that you have returned the goldfish to their owner you will need to 'feed' all that good bacteria that has grown in your filter so far. Without fish producing more ammonia to feed the bacteria, they will die. However you can keep the tank going till you get your discus by simply adding fish food to the tank daily. That will produce a small amount of ammonia to keep your filter going. Naturally you will syphon off all that rotting food, do a big waterchange, and check your water for ammonia and nitrites the day before you plan to add your fish. Good Luck

[flukes]

Sorry mate, i wasnt being rude. Its just ive been preaching about fishless cycling a bit too much lately and some must be getting annoyed by now.

Oh yeah ammonia isnt a powder it is a liquid. Go too the cleaning isle. It will be in a clear bottle.

The home brand has a white lable but i think this is cloudy ammonia you dont want that. Mine is called Power Ammonia and it has a yellow lable with red writing.

What ever you find give the bottle a shake, it should not foam at the top, it might have one or 2 bubbles that will pop but cloudy will foam at the top.

[ctvu]

I found the power ammonia as per your instruction thanks Scott.
OK here what I have done so far today in the tank there are some plants, gravel (not whole tank because it'll be bare bottom) ... and I put roughly 2.5 ml or less of power ammonia then I tested the water it said 1.5 mgl on the chart. I don't know what is different between mgl and ppm? anyway on my chart 5 mgl is the highest so I am guessing what we are trying to get the peak of ammonia in my case it is 5 mgl, am I right?
Please tell me what I have missed out.
Thanks a lot

[flukes]

Yeah 5mgl should befine try not go too far over though, if you can get too 4mgl thats fine. Just keep it there for at least a week till you see some nitrite readings. Once you see the nitrite readings half the amount your adding.

[ctvu]

Yeah 5mgl should befine try not go too far over though, if you can get too 4mgl thats fine. Just keep it there for at least a week till you see some nitrite readings. Once you see the nitrite readings half the amount your adding.

Thanks a lot for that Scott, so I am on the right track I guess. Hopefully it works. Thanks all your helps

[flukes]

JOnly add ammonia if you see if drop past 5mgl. If you add too much or you dont see much happening after a week or so i normally do a water change, which seems too get things going.

[ctvu]

JOnly add ammonia if you see if drop past 5mgl. If you add too much or you dont see much happening after a week or so i normally do a water change, which seems too get things going.

I just did the water test 3 times to get a reading of 3 mgl after I put 7 ml in total of the power ammonia. Tomorrow I will try 10 ml to see if I can get 4 or 5 mgl.


Ps: Would you think that we'd better move this subject to different forum say water chemistry so that it would be much easier for search engine? and this forum is for welcome we have gone too far I think.

[flukes]

Yeah ill move it soon, just got back from work iam lazy.
Ill move it too equipment. etc.

[ctvu]

On Tuesday I put 9 ml of ammonia I got 4 or 4.5 mgl until now I got the same I have not added any ammonia since Tuesday. Let see how we go for couple of days.

[ctvu]

Yesterday I decided to test the Nitrite for the first time to see if there was any reading of it but I got no luck, still the same reading of ammonia i.e 4-4.5 mgl. Today I got a reading of nitrite according to my chart it says 0.3 mgl, ammonia = 4-4.5 mgl, ph = 7.3. So it starts working now I guess.

[Merrilyn]

Right on track mate. You're on the way.

[ctvu]

Right on track mate. You're on the way.
That was the quickest respond I've ever had, thanks Ladyred.

[flukes]

You want too half the amount your adding and you wont wont too add it everyday now. Now the first bacteria as formed all the ammonia is turning into nitrites. So basically now you need the second bacteria too form so the nitrites will be converted to nitrates.

If your adding too much ammonia the tank will be flooded with nitrites. The nitrites levels wont drop till the bacteria is formed to convert it to nitrates. So now dont be so alarmed if your ammonia levels drop down too 2-3ppm. As long as there is an ammonia reading in there.

The main thing you want now is a nitrite reading of 5ppm, there is already plenty of nitrites there because the bacteria hasn't formed to convert it, so you only really want too add ammonia to keep feeding the
ammonia->nitrite bacteria, as long as there is a ammonia reading your right.

Then once you start too see nitrates in forming you know your second bacteria is forming. If you dont have a nitrate test kit you will see the nitrites are dropping. Still try too add a bit of ammonia till the nitrite can disapear in 24 hours.

Once all your ammonia and nitrite readings are back too zero, you want too test the system. Add enough ammonia to get a reading of 5ppm, let it go overnight for atleast 24 hours. By then the bacteria should have converted all the ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate.

If this happens your cycle is completed also if it can convert 5ppm of ammonia into nitrite and then nitrate in 24hours, you have quite a large bacteria colony too do so.

These means there is more than enough bacteria as you would need quiet alot of fish and over feeding to get a reading of 5ppm.

Once you have done test and every thing is back to 0ppm in 24 hours perform just about 100% water change, this is too reduce the nitrates.

Mights even want too do 2 large water changes after each other to make sure all the nitrate is gone. Once you have done the water change all should be at zero and your ready too add your fish.

If your cycle has finished and your not yet ready too get your fish, add enough ammonia too get a 5pm reading each day. Test your water after 24hours and make sure ammonia and nitrates are still 0. This will make sure your bacteria is still being fed and you will have a large colony for your fish bio load. Then the day before your ready too get your fish stop adding ammonia, and do 2 large water changes.

This will make sure everything is at 0ppm and you have enough bacteria.

***Just make sure you do your water changes other wisse there will be too much nitrates which can also harm your fish***

Sorry too blab on a bitjust thought id let you know what too do from now.

[ctvu]

Hi Scott

Many thanks for that It would take me a lot of time to figure out what to do next. You are CHAMP

[ctvu]

After testing the water ammonia = 3 mgl (dropping back a bit) Nitrite = 0.3 mgl (stay the same) PH the same. I was expecting Nitrite getting more but may be my filter is not good enough (1000 l/h) for 4fter I guess. The process is a bit slow. That's all today
Tomorrow I will buy some plants and pots in order to speed up the process I hope, please tell me what kind of plant for discuss culture. Thanks

[flukes]

Plants wont speed up the cycle per say, plants will absorb ammonia, nitirite and mainly nitrate. You will see a reduction on your reading but its not really helping the filter.

Best thing too do is stick it out, wait till your filter has enough bacteria to handle the largest of fish loads, trust me it will happen. Just wait for that feeling when the tank can convert 5ppm of ammonia over night.

Add some more ammonia to get it back too 5ppm, then leave it for a couple of days, still while testing. If you still dont see any nitrites building i would be getting a sponge from an established healthy tank.

Hold off on the plants for now, you will thank me in the long run when your filter is performing at full capacity.

[ctvu]

Plants wont speed up the cycle per say, plants will absorb ammonia, nitirite and mainly nitrate. You will see a reduction on your reading but its not really helping the filter.

Best thing too do is stick it out, wait till your filter has enough bacteria to handle the largest of fish loads, trust me it will happen. Just wait for that feeling when the tank can convert 5ppm of ammonia over night.

Add some more ammonia to get it back too 5ppm, then leave it for a couple of days, still while testing. If you still dont see any nitrites building i would be getting a sponge from an established healthy tank.

Hold off on the plants for now, you will thank me in the long run when your filter is performing at full capacity.

You’ve already been appreciated indeed, Scott . I’ve put my trust in you since I started. And plus I do believe it works but it is a matter of time It could be anything may be my test kits are wrong ones. My friend bought them from over sea. Or may be the filter does not function properly. Ok so I hold off the plants, I will add some more ammonia tonight and let’s see how we go.

[flukes]

Your test kits are fine, most say that the nitrite peak takes longer than the ammonia although from my experience the ammonia peak takes longer.

[ctvu]

What I am doing is now that I compare the last night test and today test, the color of the test is getting darker meaning I got some more nitrite but because it falls in the same range of the chart so it is hard to see it changing, it is definetely working slowly. I just added 4.5 ml of ammonia ie 1/2 amount since I first started out to get 4-4.5 mgl.

[flukes]

Paitience my young jedi knight.. :wink: jking

You can do anythin "wrong" with fishless cycling other than add to much ammonia which can be fixed with a water change.

Its all about giving the filter time to grow the bacteria, there isnt much you can do but let nature take its course,

[ctvu]

Today test: ammonia = 4 mgl; Nitrite = 0.6-0.8 mgl (some more here :) ) ; PH = 7.3.
Have a good weekend

[ctvu]

Day 14: ammonia = 4 ; Nitritre = 1.5 mgl; PH = 7.3

[weird]

Thanks for the info Flukes, i have managed to find power ammonia in woolworths. Started today.

[flukes]

Good luck and all i can say is be patient, remember even if it isnt quicker than a normal cycle (which it probably will be) your not harming any fish.

[weird]

I am in no rush. My major reason is the 'fishless' part, I am just too attached to my potential cycling fish, such as my leopard danios, guppy or molly to sacrifice them.

This is my other tank where I would draw them from ... the actual make up of fish is due to me combining my 3 inital 20 inch tanks (I only got into fish 18 months ago) and making a 3 foot tank ... I did this soon after I found heavy casualites in all 3 tanks after getting back from holidays.

2 bala sharks (the big one in the picture name is PACMAN)
2 rainbow sharks(they use to fight but now ignore each other)
2 upsidedown catfish - my mrs wanted em - they are ok =o
6 botia (clown loaches) - 4 big ones sleep like 16 hours
2 bristlenose - best looking fish ever - Proteus agrees !
2 ottos - hard workers
3 corydoras -> soon to live with discus in new tank
11 neon tetra -> soon to live with discus in new tank
2 sucking catfish - these guys got big but are harmless
2 black widows - yawn
2 leopard danios - breed but young get eaten
1 molly - spawned in previous tank
1 guppy - spawned in previous tank
=========================
38 fish

[weird]

OK been doing it for 3 days, add ammonia then test 24 hours later just before adding again ...

340 litres, 1 week sponge filter and plant - been there for a week.

DAY 1

10 ml of ammonia. Test 2 hours later. Reading : ammonia = 1mg/l, nitrite = < 0.3mg/l
20 ml of ammonia. Test 2 hours later. Reading : ammonia = 5mg/l

DAY 2

24 hours. Reading : ammonia = 1 mg/l, nitrite = < 0.3mg/l
Add 20 ml of ammonia.

DAY 3

24 hours. Reading : ammonia = 0.5 mg/l, nitrite = < 0.3mg/l
Add 20 ml of ammonia.

Not sure if I am doing this correctly, will continue to prod along

[ctvu]

Day 16: Ammonia = 3 mgl; Nitrite = 3.3 mgl ; PH = 7.3
More Nitrite and less Ammonia. Looks like I nearly complete the process. yee haaa!!!!

Hi Dave

It looks like Ok though. With my tank, once I got 4-4.5 mgl of ammonia it stayed there until I got some reading of Nitrite. Then I added just 1/2 amount of ammonia that I got ammonia reading of 4-4.5 mgl. in total I used only about 20-21 ml of ammonia, my tank is about 200 lt, and I think you use the same product with me. Thought I'd let you know anyway it would not matter if you use too much ammonia as Scott said before it will take a bit longer to get Nitrite to form Nitrate. Other than that with a bit patience you'll be fine.

[flukes]

Dave - I wouldnt be adding 20ml of ammonia now you have a presence of nitrite. Now you have nitrite your ammonia doesnt really have too be 5ppm. Your nitrite will keep building up until it can create the bacteria needed. Try 10ml, but first let the readings setting for a few days. Now your ammonia should be dropping and nitrite climbing. Once the bacteria is formed your nitrite will drop and then your nitrates will rise.

Actually hang on a minute.......how are you getting a nitrite reading on day 1?? Either you have been cycling the tank the traditional way or you have nitrite in your tap water. The ammonia -> nitrite bacteria shouldnt be formed after 1 day???

Sort this out first.

CTVU -
Mate when you can add 5ppm of ammonia and have it totally converted to nitrate (No ammonia or nitrite) in 24hours your cycle is done. And this is enough bacteria for you too add 1 fish per 10gal straight away.

Just make sure you change as much water as you can, once its complete. 100% would be good.

Good luck..

[ctvu]

CTVU -
Mate when you can add 5ppm of ammonia and have it totally converted to nitrate (No ammonia or nitrite) in 24hours your cycle is done. And this is enough bacteria for you too add 1 fish per 10gal straight away.

Just make sure you change as much water as you can, once its complete. 100% would be good.

Good luck..



Day 17: Ammonia = 3 mgl; Nitrite = > 3.3 mgl, ph = 7.3

Scott

I will do that test before I order discus. Now I start thinking what strains I should go for any hint Scott, thanks in advance.

[weird]

5 th day, I have uped ammonia to 30 mg, now I have got 5mgl of Ammonia, 3,3 mgl of Nitrite ... its all happening.

[ctvu]

Ammonia = 3 mgl; Nitrite = > 3.3 mgl; Ph = 7.3
The same as yesterday.

[flukes]

Ive always found that the nitrite peak takes longer than the ammonia although others have reported different.

As for the strains, get what tickles you fancy. Iam a huge fan of yellows and reds. Just seems alot of reds are hormoned and color fed. Just be careful who you buy off and most important get something you like.

[ctvu]

Day 19 : Ammonia = 2 mgl; Nitrite = > 3.3 mgl; PH = 7.3.
The Ammonia is going down, I predict that ammonia reading would be 0 mgl in 2-3 days.

Scott
Thanks for reminding me that yes I have been contacting with Kev to see what's in stock, there will be a new shipment in 3 weeks as he said. I am still thinking what strain I die for. Honestly they all are stunning the more you look the more you want them.

[flukes]

Shouldnt be long now!!

With the strains its really your choice. Is this your first shot at discus? If so i would avoid strains like pigeon bloods and leopards. Blue diamonds are always a good one, snakeskins or turqs.

If you want something a bit more than the common fish, there are things like melons, ocean greens or maybe checkerboards.

Your taste will change, 6months ago i was in love with checkerboards, i still am but now i have a thing for pigeons.

Just pick something you like and you cant go wrong.

Also Kev has thoughs starter discus for $29, for that price you cant go wrong.

[ctvu]

Day 20: Ammonia = 0000000000 mgl; Nitrite = > 3.3 mgl; PH = 7.3
My prediction was wrong today ammonia is a big zero. So now I am waiting for Nitrite getting down.

Have a nice weekend all

[ctvu]

Day 21, Day 22 and 23 are very similar with day 20.

[weird]

Excellent advice flukes, I am on day 8. All is going well.

[flukes]

Just as a guide normally if i use the fishless cycle with seeded sponges from another tank its done at about week 2. If i dont use a seeded sponge it takes about 3-4 weeks.

Now u guys a nearing completion, 2 things too remember - 1. Just because your cycle is completed doesnt mean you top adding ammonia, for the bacteria too survive it needs too be fed, continue too add ammonia until the day before purchasing fish, this will ensure the bacteria colony is alive and thriving. 2. Make sure you change 100% of the water more if you can because the nitrates will be through the roof.

After that you could stock your tank with the amount of fish the tank can hold with no problems.

[ctvu]

Day 24 : Ammonia = 0 ; Nitrite = 0.5 mgl that is a bit surprise because yesterday it was still in range of 3.3 mgl but today it dropped drammatically. Perhaps the heat could contribute some thing to it since the weather s a bit warm today I guess.

Dave

How are you doing with the reading of ammonia and Nitrite?

[flukes]

Id say its dropping because the bacteria is forming, shouldnt be long now. Do you have a nitrate test kit? Iam sure they are sky rocketing now.

[ctvu]

Id say its dropping because the bacteria is forming, shouldnt be long now. Do you have a nitrate test kit? Iam sure they are sky rocketing now.


Scott

Thanks for your support all the way. I can say it is completed by now today I got ammonia = 0 mgl, Nitrite = 0 mgl. Atm I am doing the test as we mentioned earlier I added 20 ml of ammonia to get 5 mgl at 5 pm.
at 9 Pm ammonia = 5 mgl, Nitrite = 0.5 mgl. Hopefully by 5 pm tommorow they will be reading of 0 mgl. Once again thank you very much for every thing. And now I start ordering the "PLATES" :lol:

[flukes]

Good too hear mate, once you know how too do it and see how easy it is. The traditional method seems pointless.

[chrissyoscar]

Well done Flukes excellent help as always.

Just one thing to remember guys/girls when making your big water change after the cycle is complete make sure it's aged water so there's no chlorine present.
If you do a large water change without aging or treating the water first you'll kill the bacteria.

[flukes]

Maybe you could teach me something oscar, why would it effect the bacteria? Would the colorine kill it? Iam sure there wouldnt be large enough readings too kill the bacteria..
Please explain........

[chrissyoscar]

Everyone says that chlorine kills bacteria and when cleaning filters always do it in aged water or water from the tank. I figured that 100% water change with tap water that has chlorine would probably affect the bacteria. It might not but always better to be safe than sorry.

Oscar

[flukes]

Thats cool oscar was doubting you just didnt know the reasoning behind it.
Although i dont think there would be enough chlorine in your tap water too kill the bacteria, as you said its better too be safe than sorry.