id help please

[bushie]

I was hoping that someone may be able to identify these little fellas

I have six of them and two are showing the slightest hint of yellow on their tails.

sorry about the photo quality ( little buggers wont stay still)

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i150/bushiesline/nano029.jpg

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i150/bushiesline/nano050.jpg

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i150/bushiesline/nano047.jpg

thanx in advance.

BUSHIE

[Th0mas]

Looks like young cacs.

[Noddy65]

Yep..I agree...are those the ******** apisots Bushie?

Mike

[Robdog]

At first glance it looks like three female cacs. On second look the top one may be a young male with a bit of colour starting to come thru on the dorsal and anal fins. Some females can get colour too so can't be sure.

HTH

[bushie]

mike wrote


are those the xxxxxxxx apisots Bushie?

yeah they are mike, what do you reckon?

is five dollars still a bargain?

robdog......

hope that comment wasn`t too girly for ya :lol:

wasn`t fishin for comments/ complements this time

cheers all

thanks for the info.

just got them in my community at the moment till they grow a little.

can you see any probs with keeping em there.

planted discus tank

temp 29.5
ph 6.8

is six in a 4 x 2 x 2 going to cause probs with fighting?

any advice appreciated thanx guys.

BUSHIE

[k0b0i]

apistos are good at hiding.. so long as there is heaps of room to roam around and spots for them to hide i don't think you'll have any aggression issues.

4 x 2 x 2 is plenty for 6 cacs. let us know how the colours progress on those already showing...

i think $5 for all 6 is a damn good bargain! :lol: :lol: but if you mean $5 each then that is a bargain too.

Mike.. you should probably help him out with finding some males..

welcome to the apisto club :twisted:


out of interest.. what else you got in the community tank?

[Robdog]

That's sounds blokey enough :lol:

They'll be fine in the com tank. The temp is probably a little high but it might help a bit if they have any nasties in their systems. High temps shorten the life span of apistos.
As far as fighting goes, if there are males then they'll work out the pecking order between themselves so they can have their pick of the girls but cacs aren't known to be that aggressive. They shouldn't bother your discus at all except maybe if they spawn in there.

[bushie]

koboi wrote

out of interest.. what else you got in the community tank?

quick list

clown loach (soon to be removed ex snail catcher)
khuli black
1m 2f swordtails (soon to be removed ex cycle starters)
2x bristle nose
4x peppermint bristenose
2x albino cory
2x panda cory
upside down cat
mystery (as in, I don`t have a clue what it is) cat
6x lemon tetras
10x cardinals
10x rummy nose
5x discus
1x male blue ram (his two girlfriends passed on)

I know, I know, heavy bioload but good filtration and well established tank.
discus will be moved to 8 x 2 x 2 when it is set up and various others moved to breeding tanks.

[oskastolz]

Great deal even at $5 a fish (i saw some today that size for $29 a pair), I agree with rob, caca's - 1 x male, 2 x female......

Good luck with it

Oska

[Th0mas]

Probably best to remove the synodontis (upside down) and the mystery cat to avoid possible losses of small fish over night. Synodontis just don't fit in with fish like discus and tetra anyway (same as the swords).

[Ogre]

Wow...I plan to keep that sort of load in a 200ltr tank :o

[gingerbeer01]

I wouldn;t call that a heavily stocked tank - 4x2x2 is a big tank.

Steve

[bushie]

updated......

I no longer think they were a bargain.

due to the fact I have no quarantine tank ( O.K. just ***** slap me now).

they brought with them more than I paid for.

losses include........... wait for it........

1x f swordtail... and I thought they were unkillable. ( is that a word? )
2x peppermint bristenose... ouch!
1x albino cory.......another unkillable
6x lemon tetras....like..all of em.
8x cardinals
9x rummy nose
3x discus.......ouch again..........ooooooh and again...... aaaargh and again!
and the biggest male blue ram I`ve ever seen.

so that pretty much makes everything in my tank.

at least the cacs are lookin happy.

oh well..... always wanted a dwarf cichlid tank.

so can I join you guys now?

actually, I`m currently thinking cacs suck.

but in reality.... I suck...

no quarantine tank is asking for probs and I for one should know better.

let that be a lesson to you kids.

now.... please excuse me while I tear my hair out and my tank apart.

TIME TO START AGAIN!

[parkap]

bushi, no way! :shock:

sorry to hear about the losses mate.

what were the symptoms? were they all the same for all the fish? was it gradual or very quick? do you think the cacs may have been carrying TB?

p.

[wickedglass]

ow man, sorry to hear that,
big losses like that are terrible ... makes you feel like a bad parent or something.
time for that Q-tank

[Th0mas]

Unlikely to be TB, as mainly certain complex of the apisto is more prone to it. Others such as corydora and ancistris is rather indestructable. I've had hell with my tank with apisto dropping dead left right and center, but cories and L-number cats lives through without any losses.

So please let us know what happened, a pair of cacs can't be that destructive (especially it survived).

Thomas.

[bushie]

unsure of any thing other than introduced fish as the culprit.

all water params the same.

water changed three days before introducing new fish.

as per normal schedule.

so all I can make out is some sort of lurgy.

fish started dropping about three days after introduced cacs.

no sign of problems..........two dead.

next day three dead.

checked all water quality issues.....no prob.

next day another dead.

some signs of rapid respiritory.

water change.... airation.....unhook co2

more dead.

some signs of tetra disease.

ie: some pale areas on some (1 or 2 ) rummy nose.

a whiteish area just before the tail of a cardinal.

suspect bacterial infection.

water change... treat with bacterex.

more dead.

and so on and so on for two weeks of watching my babies die.

pulling my hair out and cursing my stupidity.

$600 dollars of fish later everything seems to have settled and ran it`s course.

I tend to think it was a bacterial infection of some kind.

maybe some kind of tetra disease, I just don`t know.

but can tetra disease kill cats... swords?

and is their just one kind of tetra disease or is it a number of diseases/infections grouped under one heading.

as previously stated no change to tank and or routine or water params.
temp 29
ph 7.2
ammonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate ? but heavily planted and regular water change so should be low.
kh/gh ?

your input would be appreciated guys and girls cause I am at a loss to explain.

thanx mob

[k0b0i]

:shock: that's quite a community to lose!

if you were in Syd i'd gladly offer up one of my male Rams to you.. Sorry to hear bout the loss!

[parkap]

Bushie,

You say your tank is heavily planted. Did you move any of your existing plants or put any new plants in recently? Do you use iron supplements in your water for your fish? (Do you test for iron concentration in your water?) Do you know how high your CO2 concentration was in the water (probably not if you don't know your hardness)? What fertilisation do you use for your plants?

What kind of filteration do you use? When did you last clean out the filter media?

How old is your water heater? How reliable is it?

When you did your last water change, what had you been doing prior to it? Would you have had any kind of chemical on your hands, even soap?

p.

[fishgeek]

the only mass killing infection i am aware of is actually a herpes virus in koi
it does affect gill tissue so maybe something similar?

generally infetious disease would prehaps cause some mortalities and some sick fish that recover

neverteless it does seem ogical that you have introduced something with the new fish and been very unlucky t loose such a community

in future even without a tank a small floating jug can give you time to introduce fish ina controlled enviroment with daily water changes from tank to jug then out of system

sorry i havent got many symptoms to even guess at there

pleistophora (neon tet diseae) is a microsporean and yes it can infect other fish though you are right in assuming not normally catfish

infection of the gills can occur though is not common with these organisms and i would have expected some visible signs on the introduced fish such as discoloured areas in musculature or small bdy swellings

[bushie]

ok guys,

A few more bits of the puzzle.

parkap

You say your tank is heavily planted. Did you move any of your existing plants or put any new plants in recently? Do you use iron supplements in your water for your fish? (Do you test for iron concentration in your water?) Do you know how high your CO2 concentration was in the water (probably not if you don't know your hardness)? What fertilisation do you use for your plants?

What kind of filteration do you use? When did you last clean out the filter media?

How old is your water heater? How reliable is it?

When you did your last water change, what had you been doing prior to it? Would you have had any kind of chemical on your hands, even soap?

heavily planted :?
more like a vallis jungle with the odd crypt, anubias, ambulia, java moss and japonica lilly thrown in.
no plants moved rearranged or added.
no iron supplements, no fertilizers.
iron tests... being perth northern suburbs ground water I think they are low.
heavy limestone basin, hence high ph and I guess high hardness.
co2 is only diy ( but works very well ).
filtration is a wet trickle( actually a bit more than trickle).
turns over about 7 times tank volume p/h outleted through 10 dispersal points to minimize current.
filter media was cleaned but only 1 pre filter.
filter runs through 2 linked prefilter compartments before bioballs then ceramic rings.
water heater is only 8 months old and holds temp well night and day...29 to 29.5.
prior to water changing i go through a ritual of scrubing hands with soap but ensure a thorough rinsing to ensure nothing is left to contaminate.

I believe this had nothing to do with water quality and everything to do with introduced disease/ infection/ bacteria.

fishgeek wrote

the only mass killing infection i am aware of is actually a herpes virus in koi
it does affect gill tissue so maybe something similar?

generally infetious disease would prehaps cause some mortalities and some sick fish that recover

neverteless it does seem ogical that you have introduced something with the new fish and been very unlucky t loose such a community

in future even without a tank a small floating jug can give you time to introduce fish ina controlled enviroment with daily water changes from tank to jug then out of system

sorry i havent got many symptoms to even guess at there

pleistophora (neon tet diseae) is a microsporean and yes it can infect other fish though you are right in assuming not normally catfish

infection of the gills can occur though is not common with these organisms and i would have expected some visible signs on the introduced fish such as discoloured areas in musculature or small bdy swellings


some of the rummy nose showed signs of what I assume is neon tetra disease.
ie: pale areas of the body (generally behind dorsal fin )and some muscular impairment.
not all fish showed signs of this and or any other distress.
gill infections are also another theory hence rapid respitory, although this is also a sign of water quality issues, but with daily water changes from the first sign of problems I doubt the water quality was an issue.
I did however lose one of the cacs ( unfortunately the only other male ).

so tetras, dwarfs and cats all succumbing to what I assume was one disease has me stumped.

regardless, everything now seems to have settled.

what I now need is your honest opinions.

do I ......
strip the tank, disinfect everything?
treat the tank and all occupants? if so with what?
leave the tank as is and not introduce anything for a while and let whatever it is run its full course? if so for how long before new tank mates?
or take everything out and just have a tank full of cacs :lol: ?

thanks for your help everyone and please feel free to come up with any suggestion/ solutions/ and or prognosis.

thanks
BUSHIE

p.s. sorry about the long posts.

[Robdog]

$600 dollars of fish later.....

I know the feeling mate. It might not add up to $600 but I've just lost a trio of A. elizabethae due to something unexplained so put me down for about $300.

I love apisto's!

Have seriously considered chucking the whole lot in the bin.

[parkap]

Bushie,

Can't add much to solving the problem you had, but am looking at the details you wrote and might try and save a problem you might get.

29+ degrees water temp is high for cacs. They like it around 25-26.

Also, are you using bore water for your tank? The high limestone content you speak of leading to high pH and hardness are exactly the opposite of what apisto's like. They like low pH, say 6-7 for cac's, and lower for most other apistos and pretty soft water.

Also, if you are using bore water, have you ever had problems with it before? I know there's a lot of mineral content and in the Perth bore water, which visiually leads to discolouration of areas when used for watering, but could indicate there's something unpleasant in there for the fish. Just a guess.

In terms of what to do now for your fish, I'm really lazy so I wouldn't strip the whole thing down, unless you feel like redesigning the tank - which is always a lot of fun. (Make sure you take some photos and post them here so we can see what the set up looks like before and after you do anything.) I'd say try introducing some hardier fish again slowly and see how they go. That being said, I had a whole heap of problems of frequent fish deaths a couple of years ago. It got very depressing and lead to me to all but neglect my tank b/c it wasn't the buzz it used to be. It wasn't until I stripped it all down, gave everything a big scrub and rebuilt it all that things stabilised and I could add fish in without fear of them dying - except for the usual apisto dying not long after you bring it home syndrome. (Rob, can't believe you lost 3 elizabethae!!! I guess most of us aren't as lucky as Thomas, who got a successful spawn out of his elizabethae after about 1 week of getting them home...)

p.

[Th0mas]

Apisto death is quite common as they don't handle to much of abuse.

However whatever knocked out the rest of the tank and didn't wipe out the apisto - I would rather not go into the conclusion to blame the cacs because they're last introduced. Apistogramma species are small fish and don't take as much abuse as a discus will handle.

As parkap has already highlighted, 29+ is quite high and the level of dissolved oxygen at this temperature is less than a tank that normally run at 24-26. So this is another factor to consider.

One item you've not mention - food. What's been fed to the tank and how regular. I know it's a long shot as the setup has been stable before the recent outbreak but if you're feeding live food - it can be a cause as well.

As for being lucky - I do have my run of bad luck as well. All 5 F0 eremnopyge died within 2 weeks of arrival (> $350), lost 4 of 5 F0 gephyra in 2 weeks, 5 out of 6 of the original F0 baenschi are in fish heaven, all uaupsei (6) and trifasciata (6) ..... the list goes on.

Thomas.

[bushie]

hey all,

noddy can you edit your original post ie: LFS, so as I can bitch without people knowing who I`m bithching about :D.
don`t want to tread on toes as you never know who`s reading.

thomas, there are reasons why I will blame the cacs which I will point out when noddy edits his post.
until then I would rather keep my mouth (typing finger) shut.

oxygen levels I highly doubt as the fish most knocked around were fish that are comfortable with these temps ect.
and further more, all have been at these temps for 8 months or more.
I am aware that it is not ideal conditions for apistos but it is basically a discus tank with community fish.
these fish are hopefully to grow and be transferred to individual species tanks as time and money allow.
which reminds me , I better check that lotto ticket :lol:

as for food, they are all basically on frozen foods, ie: discus mix, community mix, brine shrimp, blood worm, daphnia, mysis shrimp and cichlid mix. all rotated randomly.
three different flake foods, krill pellets, vegie pellets and algae tabs, all rotated randomly.
par boiled pumpkin, zuchini, and carrot, one of once a week.
now that I write this I`ve noticed that the little buggers are fed better than me. :lol:

as far as your losses thomas , robdog and all others, sorry to hear about them.
and as they say **** happens.
I`m not :cry: about my losses or the money ( upset.....yeah of course...A lifes a life) but I do like to know why!

oh well, I think it`s time for a full over haul/ rescape/ more tanks/ proper co2 planted.

now to try and convince the minister of finance and all things fun.

I`m sure I can hide away a couple of fun tickets that she won`t know about :wink:

thanks guys

Bushie

P.S. how would cacs go in a nano........seriously?

[Robdog]

Well mine is quite possibly getting worse. My double red aggie pair that was in the elizabethae tank(and now in 4ft discus tank) is lighter one beautiful male with same gaping mouth carcass.
So the current death toll from this one tank is 2x A. baenschi, 3x A. elizabethae and 1 aggie male. Not cool. :(
And now that the male has died in my main tank I've risked all the occupants of that tank too

[Th0mas]

May I suggest let the tank settle and whatever it was run through it's course. Hold back on any new addition (this will be difficult) until you're satisfied the tank has settled.

Thomas.

[Robdog]

I think that's pretty good advice for both of us. My tank is empty so what ever it is will gradually fade away with some regular WC's and no host. Bit difficult for bushie tho.

[fishgeek]

if you want to be certain then you really need to empty and breakdown the tank

all components either need boil and pressure upto 1.5 atmospheres for sterilisation of spores etc
or for the tank i rub down with salt paste leave a day and then rinse and 5% chlorine wash to be sure

plants shouldnt in theory be reused
neither should wood

all nets and filter tubing,media etc should also be treated in a suitable fashion
generally i dont have the patient for all this

andrew

[Robdog]

generally i dont have the patient for all this

BINGO!

[Robdog]

Here's a pic of my male elizabethae. He was having an extended snooze on the java moss one morning. I think he was snoring due to his open mouth :cry:

[Th0mas]

Rob,

Something has certainly gone wrong there, note the lumps at the base of the dorsal, mouth jammed open, colour faded, etc.

This kind of problem seems to be quite common with apisto - have seen it too often in the past. I believe it is related to water condition, but don't have the absolute answer unless someone sent the fish out to the lab.

Thomas.

[Robdog]

Something has certainly gone wrong there....

You're damn right something went wrong Thomas :lol: :lol:

I spent enough on those guys without spending more on an autopsy. Would be interesting though.

[fishgeek]

i would guess tb
colour fading is non specific, though does commonly occur with tb
the pale area may be early granuloma's developing in the tissue

tb is one of the disease's that at least takes time to kill our fish and so we get a good frustrating look at an ill fish we cant do much about rather than just finding a dead one with little lead in

andrew

[Th0mas]

That's my guess as well - but won't know for certain.

TB is a pain to deal with, and the infected fish may not show any symptom for months until at late stage. Making it almost impossible to isolate with quarantine process.

Have found more regular water change seems to reduce the number of occurance though.

[fishgeek]

i have tried treating , what i believe was tb , in 2 fish
symptoms were slow progressive mouth dissappearing and small pink fleshy granuloma's in the later stages

both of these fish were approximately 2 yr's of age and male
prehaps as they get older they cant hold the infection at bay?!

i was treating with a combination of oral antibiotics erythromycin/amoxicillin clavunate/metronidazol in feed with no real chaneg to the progression

andrew

[bushie]

update:

tank has settled down for a few weeks now.
has been bombed with several medications.
first reintroductions started and a few newbies.
my discus tank is becoming a dwarf cichlid tank :lol:
newbies are a pair of aggi double reds and a male trifasciata.

may need help with something though.
my male double red (juvi) has a gill problem.
half his head is dark and every time he eats (blackworm) the worms seem to crawl back out his right gillplate.
I`m assuming there is some kind of paralasis.

does anyone know of anything that causes this?
I`m assuming he may have had a bit of a knock when being caught.
as it was a bit of a chase around the tank at the LFS.

if it was a knock, do these things normally fix themselves?

thanx guys

bushie

[fishgeek]

black colouration on the skin is caused by dilaation in the melanophores

basiclly colour is neural
you will see black distinct area's with no scale disturbance after truma(as you have guessed at and including post injections)
with any lesion that presses on a nerve

the area you ask about is associated with thyroid tumours , do you see any swelling behind the gill plate to confirm this ?

andrew

[Reillin]

Looks like either a virus or a bacteria brought along with the cacs. They probably survived because their immune have already dealt with the pathogens and so they are carriers. There are numerous virus and bacteria out there, way beyond the scope of the general hobbyist, unless you own a microscope and have a lexicon of diseases, quarantine is your answer.

It was a pH crash? Apistos can be quite resilient to lower pH levels.

No quarantine = gambling with your existing tank. Lets hope all newer (and older) hobbyists take heed.

Cheers,
Vien.