CO2 extinguisher - what do I need to get this into my tank

[SandyLynne]

I have a CO2 extinguisher but am so confused with exactly what I need to get the CO2 into the tank.

I have read many articles in the forum and on the net and am even more confused.

Could some please help me and tell me exactly what else I need. I want something automatic that I do not need to play with.

I assume I need the following?

C02 Regulator
http://www.aquariumproductswholesale.com/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=116
http://www.aquariumproducts.com.au/prod1254.htm
http://www.aquaria.com.au/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/5055

PH Controller
http://www.aquariumproductswholesale.com/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=180
http://www.aquariumproducts.com.au/prod1312.htm
http://www.aquaria.com.au/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/6_86/products_id/3902

Are these any good and what else do I need?

I would also really appreciate opinions on brands and which is better and also the easiest to use.

I have read good and bad about Tunze?
http://www.tunze.com/index.php?id=149&L=1&C=AU&user_tunzeprod_pi1[predid]=-infoxunter030

[spudly]

Any one of the regulators there are fine. The Azoo has the added feature of a solenoid valve which can switch the CO2 on / off with a timer. The other two are probably slightly better quality being German. You don't need a pH control unit to succeed with CO2 although it does help getting the dose right, Amano doesn't use one so it's definately optional.

I definately recomend the Aquamedic reactor 1000 rather than a smaller reactor or diffuser. This is because it can be used externally on one of your filter hoses so you have less equipment in the tank, I've used some of the smaller units and they struggle to dose a large tank too. You can count the bubbles going into this reactor but with others you will need a bubble counter so some of the savings with smaller units are offset by the expense of hav,ng to buy a bubble counter.

Cheers
Rob

[shewey]

I have just ordered the azoo regulator/solenoid. As soon as I receive it I will be able to let you know how good it is. For the price it is certainly pretty good. I have heard quite a few reviews on them from people in the US and they seem to be happy with it.

I know quite a few people using the tunze reg and they all think they are great.

Cheers,
Mark.

[kevkoi]

Ah, there are cautions to that statement that Amano does not use pH controllers....

It is true he doesn't but he doesn't need to because of a number of reasons and his line of products.

For starters, he uses the "drop checker" to check the CO2 levels. His kH is a constant, using Aquasoil, so he knows his CO2 levels based on the colour of the liquid in his drop checker.

2ndly, he adds Brighty K daily dosing. Brighty K is also a buffering solution to keep his pH from crashing.

3rdly, in his tanks with full ADA equipment, they raise the Lilypipe out of the water every evening. (Lilypipe is usually fully submerged in the day)This is to create surface rippling to increase the O2 levels at night. Alternatively a lot of other hobbyist have their airpumps on when the CO2 cuts off at night.

In a tank without the above, cranking up the CO2 too high without a pH controller can cause a crash in the tank.

[spudly]

Whatever brand of equipment you are using the basic truth is that you don't NEED pH control. I use one and I have had set ups without one. Whatever you are using you should check your KH and dose CO2 accordingly. With adequate water movement you shouldn't need excessive surface movement at night but if you are concerned use an airpump or switch off the CO2 at night. Most companies (Azoo, Sera, Dupla) make a long term CO2 monitor which are the same as the drop checker only not as attractive. If your equipment doesn't come with CO2 table showing the relationship between KH and pH you can find one at Tropica.com.

Aquasoil would have a tendency to make pH and KH drop, making it less stable. Many users in the US who rave about the aquasoil including Tom Barr say that you don't need to worry about about the KH/pH relationship and that you should slowly increase CO2 until your plants are pearling (making oxygen bubbles) and then leave your CO2 at that level.

Whatever method you choose just gradually increase your CO2 dose and observe all the inhabitants of your aquarium. As long as you understand the basics it's not overly complicated and it's certainly worth the investment in CO2.

Good luck
Rob

[rainbow]

Quote "I definately recomend the Aquamedic reactor 1000 rather than a smaller reactor or diffuser. This is because it can be used externally on one of your filter hoses so you have less equipment in the tank, I've used some of the smaller units and they struggle to dose a large tank too. You can count the bubbles going into this reactor but with others you will need a bubble counter so some of the savings with smaller units are offset by the expense of hav,ng to buy a bubble counter."

I would definately agree with this. This is another awesome product from Aquamedic. Just make sure you use a filter with atleast 100lph flow otherwise it won't function properly (although it still will diffuse CO2).

[duck]

I have a CO2 extinguisher but am so confused with exactly what I need to get the CO2 into the tank.
I'm alittle confused how do you propose to put reg on a CO2 fire extinguisher and if you do,Who's going to fill it once it's empty?

[SandyLynne]

Many of the regulators fit fire extinguishers. As for refilling it that is very easy for me as I work for Wormald Fire and we have our own recharge bay with a large CO2 tank. Many fire companies have their own recharge bay that you can all take your CO2 bottles to be refilled.

I have been looking at the Sera Complete C02 set with Computer Controller as it comes in a kit which makes it a lot easier for me.

http://www.aquariumproductswholesale.com/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=16

I want something automated so that I do not have to worry about it.

If I use my own extinguisher and buy the regulator & Automatic pH CO2 Controller it seems to be getting just as expensive, if not more.

I noticed Proteus used this on a planted tank he setup and the results were amazing.

http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4257&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0&sid=b98d70c59df935f97ba04a3f4a050cf4

[pritch33]

there is an adapter you can buy to fit the regulator to the extinguisher i have heard you can buy in melbourne so would think you can buy it in any state and you can get them filled by places that servive fire extinguisher
but best talk to them first as you will most likely need to remove the adapter for them to fill the bottle and not modify the bottle you just put a cable tie on the handle to hold it open and the reg does the rest as normall if you need i can try find the name of the place that sells the adapter but if you go to a few engineering supplies they may be able to find something for you

Ray

[anti-generic]

I agree you don't need a ph controller. I've been running a fire extingusher CO2 for over a year now with just a regulator and reactor.
I think the key lies in controlling what you put into the tank. If you knowingly dose the right amount of ferts and buffers and have a steady flow of co2 and light, things kind of balance out. Of course there'll be a trial and error period. I think everyone's gone through one of them. So no discus or any other fish when you first start off and watch the progress of your plants. Amano has a very good line where he says if the plants are happy the fish are happy. (something along those lines)

Regards,
Eric

[anti-generic]

It works kind of like the PPS dosage system for plants. I think it was written in the Barr Report by Tom Barr. Where if you apply a set amount of (lights, CO2, Ferts) to your plants, they will adapt and absorb accordingly. to prevent over dose, the tank water is changed and the system starts over again.

Regards
Eric

[SandyLynne]

The tank I want to add CO2 to is an established community tank with 9 discus in it, which I cannot move from this tank, this is why I was thinking of going fully automated to prevent any mistakes.

But then I guess even with automated mistakes can be made?

[anti-generic]

Ok
try this. Dose very small amounts of co2 at first. 1 bubble/2 seconds. I use seachem equilibrium to buffer the water with good success. Also consider putting a bag of coral bone in your filter to act as a backup.

make sure you change water if anything starts to look pear shaped.

what ferts are you planning to use?

Regards,
Eric

[SandyLynne]

Hi Eric

At the moment I have pool filter sand without any substrate :cry:

I have been using Seachem flourish tabs and Seachem flourish excel

The only other things I use in my tank and Seachem Prime and Seachem Discus Trace

Gee I am starting to sound like a Seachem shop :?

My PH has always been stable at about 6.7. I think driftwood helps with PH? I have a very large piece of driftwood in my tank.

But my plants look shocking :oops:

I want to get rid of the large driftwood and just have a planted tank, maybe with a couple of small driftwood.

[Noddy65]

If your thinking of injecting CO2 removed the bubblers (unless theyre bubbling CO2). Any surface disturbance will rapidly remove the CO2 from the water.

It also looks like your directing your filter outlets towards the water surface, this will also remove most CO2, turn them so they are pointing away from the surface but perhaps not directly down as this will only dig up/disturb your plants depending on the strength of flow.

Mike

[SandyLynne]

Thanks Mike

Yes my spraybars are pointing upwards, so I will correct that or should I go back to the lily pipe.

I also find that when I turn the bubbles off all of my discus start praying as I call it, looks like they are gasping for air on the surface.

Will using CO2 help the discus at all or is it purely for plants?

[Noddy65]

Hmmmm...you may have some issues there...
The CO2 will drive down the ph which may be an advantage for discus (however it may cause issues as your going to have unstable pH for a while).
The other issue is that the CO2 content of the water will be higher which may cause the fish some issues, particularly since they may be lacking O2 when you turn the bubbles off. This will become a bigger issue at night if you keep the CO2 running all the time. At night the plants stop producing O2, so the water content of O2 will drop. To make matters worse they (the plants) USE O2 at night, further reducing your O2 levels in the water. Combined with an CO2 being pumped in you may have some severe anoxia problems overnight.

The CO2 is really just for the plants but it isn't a miracle cure all...good plant growth is a combination of CO2, ferts and enough light..

Mike

[anti-generic]

Sandy,
I dont think the poor health of your plants are caused by the lack of CO2. You substrate needs attension. Pool filter sand contains zero nutrients for plant roots and it looks like you have heavy rooted plants like swords. Just using flourish tabs arent enough. You'll need some kind of iron based substate like eco complete.
If not you may consider more grafted plants like anubias and java ferns.
your dosage of flourish excel is already dosing CO2 but you also need other ferts. get yourself some Seachem flouish potassium, seachem flourish iron, seachem FLOUISH and seachem trace.

dose the recommended amounts Bi-daily.
also i think seachem prime is stripping away alot of nitrates for your plants so maybe try and half that dose. or even try not dosing at all but do frequent small water changes. (just a thought)

Since i've started planting out my tank i've stopped all ph buffers and dechlorinators and my discus are fine.

Regards,
Eric

[anti-generic]

BTW beautiful collection of fish you got there.

[SandyLynne]

Hi Eric and Mike

Thank you so much for your help.

Nearly all of my plants are Echinodorus which are heavy rooted. I have lots of amazons, bleheri, osiris etc and some Cryptocoryne wendtii 'Mi Oya'.

My tank is thriving as far as my discus are concerned, they are all very happy and growing at a very healthy rate. 2 have spawned many times in this tank and have now ben moved to their own tank.

But as far as a planted tank I am failing miserably :oops:

Eric I see you are helping build my home Seachem shop even more with the suggestion of more products :shock: but I must admit they IMO they are excellent products.

What brand is Eco Complete? I have looked through our sponsors online shops but am unable to find it.

BTW thankyou for the compliments on my discus, I am truely addicted to these magnificent fish.

I get very upset when you go to some LFS and they say Discus are not all they are hyped up to be, I guess they have never kept discus or with any luck anyway. :wink:

[SandyLynne]

:oops: oops I found it

CaribSea Eco Complete Dry Planted Aquarium Substrate

http://www.aquaria.com.au/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/6_31/products_id/8384?osCsid=b0b09ccf1c112b4ba4c04fe0cfd7925c

[spudly]

The Sera pH control is a good unit. However if your fish gasp without the air bubbles you may need to aerate the tank at night. This would drive off CO2 causing the unit to add more as the pH rises, creating a conflict of sorts between your equipment. Perhaps a better option would be a solenoid valve on a timer so CO2 is only added during the day.

This said though, I would be surprised if your existing filtration in the photo isn't moving the surface adequately to oxygenate your tank. As Eric said, you could gradually increase the CO2 and you should have no problems. Most sytems and from memory the Sera, include a chart showing the pH to be set on the control unit for a range of KH values. As long as you stay within this range there should be no issues with your discus, just be conservative and change your parameters slowly, this includes ferts etc as well, because you don't want a huge alga outbreak either.

Cheers
Rob

[SandyLynne]

Hi Rob

Thanks for your help

What I am concerned about is why the discus start praying at the surface when the bubbles are turned off.

The photo unfortunately does not show the surface, but with the 2 spray bars there is plenty of surface movement. I have just turned the bars around a little as they were pointed upwards towards the water. They are now a little higher on the back wall and directed straight across to the other side.

[anti-generic]

Sandy,
what other fish do u have in the tank? Do they react the same way when the air pump is switched off? maybe try and observe your fish when u turn it off. See if they have increase breathing patterns. also, bare in mind when your plants are doing well, they will fill the tank with oxygen.

when i started with co2 my main concern was the affect on ph. Learnt that the hard way. Thats why i always use a buffer everytime i change water and stopped using the air pump. I figured that my fish will do better in a constant environment. if the amount of co2 is constant, amount of water changed is constant and the amount of buffers constant, discus will adapt.

Regards,
Eric

I hope this is helping and not causing more confusion.

[SandyLynne]

Hi Eric

My tank is home to
school of rummy nose tetras
school of cardinal tetras
4 bristlenose
1 glass catfish
3 clown loaches
5x Cory Cat
2x Otocinclus
4x Siamese Algae Eaters
2x Honey Dwarf Gourami
4x White Tip Ornate Tetra
3x Bolivian Butterfly
3x Blue Ram
3x Mystery Snail

I am very confused but more with what is happening in my tank at the moment. I did a 50% water change on the weekend and added Flourish Excel for the very last time. After the addition of Excel all my discus were up facing the surface of the water. Last night I did another 50% water change and they were still at the surface, and on waking this morning they are still at the surface sometimes face up then somethimes normal angle but not leaving the surface. :cry:

I had turned the air pump down to half way on the weekend but have now turned it back upto full strengh.

I have no idea if the Excel is causing this but it certainly seems this way. Also when I use Excel I see my bristelnose lying flat on their backs.

It this stage it is only the discus up at the surface, but previously when I have removed the bubbles many of the fish are at the surface with very fast breathing.

What on earth is causing this? I have come to the conclusion that I would probably kill my fish if I add CO2 at this stage?

[spudly]

I suggest taking a step back and checking nothing else could be causing this, pH, ammonia, temp, disease etc. As Eric said when the plants do well they oxygenate the tank and the Excel should help them do this. Perhaps do another water change and then when the discus return to normal behaviour add 1/4 dose of ferts, excel etc, observe this for a while and then slowly increase. The suggested dosages for all these prods are for the "average tank" so you may need more or less depending on how quickly your plants consume the nutrients.

Once things settle down, as long as you follow the instructions a CO2 system will benefit your plants and won't adversely effect the fish.

Cheers Rob

[Robdog]

Maybe they're just hungry

[SandyLynne]

Aquarium Products Wholesale must be loving me at the moment. I have ordered Seachem flouish, Seachem flouish potassium, seachem flourish iron, seachem trace & JBL AquaBasis Plus along with other numerous goodies. Their service is fantastic. I placed the order on Sunday and received most of my order today, 2 days later.

I now realise one of my main problems for my plants is lack of nutrients as they are planted in pool filter sand and nothing else.

My challenge this weekend is to get the substrate under the sand. Oh what a big job :?

Any suggestions for making this an easier task?

Then I am hoping that if the plants start thriving I should be able to start decreasing the bubbles without my discus praying.

Only then will I consider CO2 as my precious discus are far more important. But I really do want a spectacular looking planted tank and hope to echieve this.

I would love to post a photo in a couple of months of a beautiful planted tank and not just my bare tank with one oversized driftwood and a few struggling plants.

[shewey]

Hi Sandy,

What is your ph and kh? It will be interesting to look at the co2 chart t osee where you are at. I wonder if your kh is really low?

Mark.

[anti-generic]

Sandy,
I'm afraid theres no easy way to replace substrate. You'll have to remove all the fish and drain the tank. during that process you must still keep all the filter bacteria alive.
do u have another tank? or maybe a large bucket?
I hope you are running a cannister filter too.

please, no matter what you do, dont disturb the substrate while the filter is running and with fish in there. The gunk in the substrate that built over time might pullute the water and cause all kinds of trouble.

Regards,
Eric

[SandyLynne]

I will test my KH today and post results

The pool filter sand has only been in the tank for just over a month so there will dedfinately be some gunk but I am hoping not too much.

I have 2 canister filters on this tank and one on a 3" tank. I was going to move all of the discus into the other tank but was considering leaving all other fish.

I have large plastic signs that I was going to cut up to make dividers in the tank and try and do it in 3-4 sections, I thought this might make it a little easier, but perhaps the best options my be to clear the whole tank.

What a shame I didn't do this when I did the sand :x

[SandyLynne]

PH 6.6
KH 2
GH 5
TEMP 30° C

[shewey]

Hmm..at those values your CO2 is pretty good. It certainly should not cause your Discus to be gasping....however you may want to take your ph and kh value late at night after the lights have been off for a while to see if there are any changes. Take your readings as soon as you wake up and see if there is much difference.
Mark.

[SLS]

Hello Sandy,

Welcome to the addiction!! It great to see your enthusiasm.

I am reading the thread and am most concerned with the gasping issue, this is a problem. This issue must be addressed before any consideration of CO2 is to be introduced.

For starters, lets look at the aeration. In most circumstances, if you choose to use an air pump, and especially periodically, I would suggest, the pump is to be turned on of an evening. This is when oxygen is at its lowest point. Ideally though, the air pump should either be ON or OFF, flipping between the 2 is for specific purpose, and recommended for the more advanced aquarist.

Taking into account, the positioning of your spraybars, aeration shouldn't be necessary, we can only reach a point of 100% saturation, based on atmospheric preasure.

If i understand correctly, did you conduct 2x 50% water changes in 2-3days? This also concerns me. Filtration bacteria requires more stable conditions in order to thrive. Conducting a Nitrate Test should establish wether your filtration bacteria is established or not. There is a possability your filters are not cycled, hence ammonia spikes maybe occuring within the aquarium. This would explain the gasping.

I suggest, back off on the water changes (20% once / wk), slow down on the feeding (once / day and small amount only), add Seachem Stability or equvalent daily, and take a hands off approach for the moment. Monitor your pH daily, and keep a log book.

Personally, I recommend only 2 methods of CO2 application. Taking into account, we sell these items frequently, and must ensure the customer is not to experience problems. This is my advice. Either go the full hog, controller and all. OR, Use the dual timer senerio. Lights on, gas on...Lights off, gas off. This way, we are doing our best to preventing you waking up one morning to a tank of DEAD fish... Both of these senerio's would require an increase in the kH. (preferably 3-4Degree's.)

Amano uses the Dual timer system, and also incorperates the use of an air pump at night... There is a reason for this. LOW kH. From my experiences (and with discus, i think i've had plenty...lol) Higher hardness values tend to stress the fish. Oxygen levels in an ADA Technique System remain stable.

I have studied natural environment, and also have experience in Pond Technology for intensive aquaculture farming. pH values and oxygen fluctuate in a 24hr cycle. Ponds rely holey and solely on the production of algae to maintain water chemistry. The main difference in the Aquarium, is controlled lighting. Theres never an overcast day indoors, (well, unless you have a power out) and in that circumstance, turn your gas off.

The substrate is also an issue for a CO2 planted aquarium, Of course I would recommend ADA. But this is a secondary issue, we can discuss later.

Just out of interest, would anyone like to enter Sandy's values into the CO2 Calculator? I think we may be surprised by the result.

I'll stop "waffeling" now, and give you some time to let this all sink in. I hope its been helpful.

Kind regards,
George :wink:

[Dee]

Hello George,

That is a very informative post, thank you very much for posting. For CO2 and planted tank newbies like myself, there is alot of valueble information there. Thanks again for posting.

Cheers,

Dee :D

[ellwa]

co2 looks like its about 22ppm co2 anyways...

[Stingray]

With 6.6ph and 2 german degrees kh, your CO2 level is 14.8 or rounded to 15 according to my trsuty Dupla bible. A very safe level indeed and certainly not enough to cause gasping problems with your fish. I must admit that I didnt read the whole post, but were those ph and kh levels obtained in the morning before the lights come on ?

[Ozlurker]

Hello all who are following this thread,

I am Sandylynne's DIY handyman and I would like to thank all who have responded to this thread , which I find interesting if not facinating.

Early this morning Sandy & I have moved all discus, 3 blue rams, our bolivian butterflies and a glass cat into a spare 160 ltr tank. Other fish are spread between our quarantine tank and a few 10 ltr buckets, which I might add are heated, aerated and running our various canister filters.

All of this was to facilitate the total emptying of the community tank in question, which has now been upgraded with a 3cm layer of JBL's Pro Flora Aquabasis Plus (Sorry George, ADA was totally outside the budget). A 4-6cm layer of pool filter sand has been added and the tank has been filled.

Unfortunately, due to a faulty heater (which was heating constantly) we lost the 3 clown loaches which were the "snail cleanup crew".

Just waiting for Sandy to get home from work.

I've just worked the last 7 days straight and then spent the first of only 2 days off emptying, cleaning and refilling a 400 ltr tank; does this mean I'm addicted too????? :shock: :shock: :shock:

[SandyLynne]

Hi George

Thank you for your post, I found it very informative.

What I have learnt from your post is perhaps my water changes are too large and too frequent. I do a 50% WC every 2-3 days.

As for feeding I am 100% sure I overfeed and I definately need to fix this.

Tank had a major overhaul yesterday with all sand being removed and 5 bags of JBL AquaBasis Plus 5L put in the bottom. Sand was put back in covering the Aquabasis.

This morning I have tested my water before turning the lights on. At this stage discus are still in the breeding tank with my breeding pair but the rest of my fish have been returned.

PH 6.6
KH 2
GH 4
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Temp 29.8 C

One problem I noticed when the tank was pulled apart was the smell from the massive driftwood. The driftwood was hollow which was great for my bristlenose and clown loaches, but of course never got cleaned out. I have decided to leave this out of the tank as that may have been causing problems.

One week before emptying the tank all of the plants had been removed. This seemed to cause a huge problem with my discus gasping at the top for air.

After the water change yesterday I added Seachem Prime, Neutral Regulator, Discus Buffer. I also added back some of the tank water and water from my breeding tank along with some Sera Nitrivec.

I am a little anxious whether to add my discus back in at this stage or leave it a couple of days for the tank to settle. I am concerned at leaving 9 discus in a 160 litre tank in the meantime though.

[DR.V]

As George suggested, do once a week water change.

As for feeding, only feed the amount of food that your fish can finish within 2 minutes.

IMO, you should wait a little bit longer until your tank is stable enough for the discus to go back in.

9 discus in 160 litre tank would be ok for a short period of time, just make sure you keep the water quality high. (ie: regular water change and dont over feed)

Good luck.

[SandyLynne]

An update on my tank since my water change and addition of substrate 4 days ago.

Temp 30 C
PH 6.6
KH 2
GH 5
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0

I have been adding Nitrivec daily and have removed the air pump and bubbles.

All of my fish except most discus have been returned to the main tank.

3 small discus
3 Bolivian Butterflies
3 Blue Ram
4 Siamese Algae Eaters
2 Otocinclus
Rummynose
Cardinals
3 White Tip Ornate Tetra
5 Cory Cat
1 Glass Catfish
2 Honey Dwarf Gourami
4 Bushy Nose Plecostomus - Bristlenose

In my breeding tank remain my breeding pair and 7 companion Discus.

All looking fantastic at this stage, no praying and gasping for air in either tank even though the breeding tank does have bubbles from the sponge filter :D

After the post from George I visited Slippery Little Suckers. I would like to thank George and his wife for their patience, help and world of knowledge. I learnt so much from George after my one visit and cannot wait to return to the store to purchase a pair of discus. In the meantime I am drooling through a book I bought from George, (The International Aquatic Plants Layout Contest 2005).

I am now even more inspired to have a planted tank but will take my time to plan it correctly instead of rushing into everything as I usually do. :oops:

Thankyou all for you help, this post is far from over as my planted tank begins to take shape and I will eventually add CO2.

George I look forward to seeing you and your wife again VERY soon :D

[SandyLynne]

I am still not using CO2 but the substrate and liquid ferts are working a dream

Any suggestions?

Oh and I have also fallen in love with bolivian butterflys

[SandyLynne]

My Butterflys, I have 6 and just love them.

[Merrilyn]

Tank looks wonderful Sandy, and so do the fish :P

[Robdog]

My only suggestion would be to trim those hairgrass clumps. Cut them off about half way down and it will encourage the growth and they'll spread a bit more if you want a carpet effect.
Apart from that it looks really good

[SandyLynne]

Hi Ladyred and Robdog, thank you for the replies.

Robdog that is exactly the effect I am after, haircut time :lol: