What would you do?

[TW]

My male Apistogramma Bitaeniata died last night & I'm terribly sad about that. He must have made one last valiant effort, because tonight when I got home from work, Mrs Bitaeniata brought out her free swimming fry.

This is her 2nd try. Last time, she lost her final remaining fry at 23 or 24 days.

It is really important to me that these fry have the best chance of survival, doubly so as it seems that my enquries today are that I probably will not be able to source a replacement male easily in Sydney Australia.

The only fish in the tank, other than mum & fry, are 2 otos. I think otos are strictly vegetarian, but someone told me they might eat the fry?

I'd really value knowing if anyone thinks I should:-

1. remove the otos
2. put the fry in a breeding net (but it would be still in the same tank)
3. Leave them with mum

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

[Th0mas]

Mum should be able to fend off the otos, but better to pull them out to be sure.

Since she's proven with fry before, so it'll be safe to leave her with the egg. She'll hatch them and bring out the wigglers when the time is right (3 days to hatch, another 4-5 days to free swimmer). Make sure BBS is ready for them (as usual - live is best).

The three main reasons for apisto fry death are:

- prey from other fish (including inexperience parent)
- poor water
- hunger

I think the first two isn't a problem in your case, only the third one you'll need to watch out for. Parent fish who don't eat the youngs will not eat the carcass, so keep an eye out for dead fry in case of problem.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Thomas.

[TW]

Thanks Thomas, your 2 cents is worth a great deal.

They are already free swimming fry, more than last time. Last time, only ever saw 5 - this time a little better (but not great) at maybe 15 or thereabouts.

50% weekly water change so water is good, but she still may suffer from inexperience. Last time, one single fry made it to day 23 or 24 - but then just disappeared. So, she is yet to prove herself as totally successful.

I have frozen BBS (remember, you helped me out with a source to buy). I'm not allowed to set up another tank to hatch brine shrimp (hubby says no more electricity for tanks or accessories). Also no room in the tank itself either - plus would probably check out the additional power point in use.

Auburn is my closest source of live BBS, so I will try to get there after work tomorrow if I can.

I think you said you were close to Bankstown. Do you know another source around that area for live BBS? Majestic at Taren Point have live brine shrimp, but not the baby.

Thanks for response.

[wickedglass]

I'd go for another small tank for the fry if that option is available to you (I take it that, unfortunately, if you can't set up a bs hatchery, then another tank is out of the question, too) ... if not, then net them. I usually take the fry form the parents at 2 weeks at the latest, often, depending on the individual situation I take them as soon as they're wriggling and sometimes the eggs and rear them without parents. I've had decent success doing this. We feed mixtures of finely powdered flake (ground to dust in a coffee grinder and made into a paste with tank water), live bbs, frozen bbs and hard boiled egg yolk squeezed through a stocking and make a solution from that with tank water. Feeding takes place via a syringe with airline attached to the nozzle so it can be very localised.
I'm very lucky in that my partner not only encourages this hobby but takes an active interest in everything about it and comes up with great ideas and innovations. Lucky that she's just as much of a fish nut as I am.

[jim]

I would like to ask a question,

I have mine in a 80 ltr tank with top filter...(I have shorten the inlet pip to avoid suck to the fry)..they just lay eggs (around 40 - 50 of them..still in black little dots) and I already removed the male as soon as I saw the eggs (female was attacking the male).. The question is, how often I need to change the water. I try not to disturb the mum and frys...

Can I raise Apistos the same way as Krib? I have good sucess in raising Kribs....

Thanks

[Robdog]

I'd say that Kribs are probably better parents than Apisto's. Only because they both seem to care for the fry whereas apisto's have the mother tend to the fry and the dad guards the general area. But if dad gets too close or can't get away, look out!

[Th0mas]

I would like to ask a question,

I have mine in a 80 ltr tank with top filter...(I have shorten the inlet pip to avoid suck to the fry)..they just lay eggs (around 40 - 50 of them..still in black little dots) and I already removed the male as soon as I saw the eggs (female was attacking the male).. The question is, how often I need to change the water. I try not to disturb the mum and frys...

Can I raise Apistos the same way as Krib? I have good sucess in raising Kribs....

Thanks

How often to change is a difficult one to answer. Obviously the more the better but most will do what they believe is enough.

Comparing to krib fry, apisto fry isn't as hardy (and very dependant on species). They requires small fine food to start (BBS is popular) and uneaten food can foul the water quickly. So having parent in with them will ensure all uneaten food are cleaned up by the parents.

Normally if the tank is big enough and there are places for him to retreat, leaving the father in there is fine.

Thomas.

[Robdog]

Back to TW's original question, personally I'd pull the fry out and give them to Thomas!

[TW]

thanks all

I have negotiated a deal with hubby to set up a small 6 litre tank for a short period of time. I'll try to stretch that for as long as I can. I tried to catch all the fry last night & managed about 15 out of 22. Plan was to move both mum & fry into the holding tank - so she could continue to care for them (teaching them how to eat & what not). I got scared though, as when I caught her & put her with the babies, her guarding dress was gone & she seemed stress. I've read that a stressed mum can get confused & eat the fry & thought she might do that, particularly as she had put her party clothes away & was wearing her drab every day dress. So, I put her back in the tank.

Low & behold, tonight her party dress is back on & she has herded her remaining 7 fry together & is guarding them. So, I have 2 chances now - the holding tank & the main tank.

Unfortunately, I find the fry harder to find in the holding tank than I did in the main tank (they have spread out, instead of together in a bunch & they blend in with the gravel). I have only really spotted 3 or 4 tonight.

Thanks for the feeding suggestions wickedglass. I use a syringe. I don't really need the air tube, as I can reach them with the syringe - but in the holding tank I can't tell where they are to aim.

Auburn have been out of live BBS for the last 2 days & they promised me tomorrow. In the meantime, I'm giving them frozen BBS, but not sure they are eating it. I also have some liquid fry food that I had for my baby platys. Can I use that?

My hubby has his own tank (a marine setup in June 06), but it is the accountant in him that already objects to my 3 tanks (plus the fry holding tank) but for the time being, I have the fry holding tank. :)

I'm curious though, how long is it before apistos can take crushed flake or brine shrimp?
Back to TW's original question, personally I'd pull the fry out and give them to Thomas! That sounds like a good idea to me, trouble is, I'd want at least a couple of them back, as I need a new mate for my widowed bita.



Thanks for all the replies.

[Th0mas]

A few suggestions/questions:

Is there any filtration in the holding tank? If not, stick in a sponge filter quickly.

There shouldn't be gravel in the holding tank, leaving it bare makes it much easier to maintain.

Do not use liquid fry food - it's more trouble than it's worth as 6 litre of water can go off very quickly.

Feeding dry food can be difficult to control, it will take at least 2 months or more before the fry is big enough to have interest in normal dry food. Never stick with one single type of dry food as it does not provide a good balance in their diet so it's always best to supplement with BBS and other type of live/frozen food. It'll be at least 4 months before they're large enough to have a go at full size BS, but BS isn't as nutritional as BBS.

Breeding the sibbling with mum isn't such great idea as this lead to in-breeding. Definitely something that most don't encourage.

BBS hatchery isn't so difficult - and your can even feed then to marine (get your husband to set it up and you just pinch some for the fry, 20 fry don't eat too much BBS at this stage).

Have thought of offering to care for some/all of them but I don't have 100% success rate and sometime a bad run (overlook in checking water parameters, etc) can lead to 100% mortality (as it has just happened to my macmasteri batch two days ago). Am more than happy to return 50% of whatever grew up - but there's no guarantee how many will make it through.

Keep us update with the progress.

Thomas.

[TW]

Hi Thomas, thanks for your response
Is there any filtration in the holding tank?Yes, I have a sponge filter.
There shouldn't be gravel in the holding tankI realise that now, as I can't even see them in the tank, so I don't know how many of the 15 survived the transfer, although I don't know why they would die because of transfer, unless stress? Why did I use gravel - Because they came from a tank where I was using ADA soil. It is a soil that has qualities that maintain the pH under 6 & keeps the water really soft. My water out of the tap is pH high 7's. I thought such a large difference might be enough to kill them & I find the pH buffering & lowering solutions not to work that well. What do you think, should I carefully remove the gravel tonight. If I do it slowly, I guess the pH will only gradually rise. Could minimise any rise if I do the daily water changes using water from another ADA tank (instead of the tap) would that be ok?
Do not use liquid fry food Oops, I already gave them a dose this morning.
Breeding the sibbling with mum isn't such great idea as this lead to in-breeding. Definitely something that most don't encourage. I know it's not ideal, but so far no-one has a bita anywhereI have tried. That LFS we spoke of, in a previous pm, told me "no more bitas expected" when I rang him. Someone here gave me a lead in Strathfield that someone suggested, but LFS is unfamiliar with the name bita & I've emailed a picture - waiting to hear back. I've advertised, here & on FP, as well as at petlink. If I can get a matching male, that is my first priority. Apart from that, I want my girl to have a full life, I'd even sell or give her away, but only to a good home & only if they had a matching mate. She won't be returned to a LFS.
Have thought of offering to care for some/all of them .... Am more than happy to return 50% of whatever grew up - but there's no guarantee how many will make it through. That would be so cool of you to offer that - I'd be really grateful. I would be more than happy with that deal, as I am a newbie & if you can't pull them through, I certainly couldn't either. I would suggest that I keep the 6 or 7 that are still the main tank with mum as I don't want to upset her further & give you the 15 that are in the holding tank. As far as it is possible to tell, I'd like a male & a female in my 50% share of the survivors, if you were kind enough to agree to this.

Please let me know if you're interested.

Thanks again for your suggestions.

[Th0mas]

Hi TW,


I realise that now, as I can't even see them in the tank, so I don't know how many of the 15 survived the transfer, although I don't know why they would die because of transfer, unless stress? Why did I use gravel - Because they came from a tank where I was using ADA soil. It is a soil that has qualities that maintain the pH under 6 & keeps the water really soft. My water out of the tap is pH high 7's. I thought such a large difference might be enough to kill them & I find the pH buffering & lowering solutions not to work that well. What do you think, should I carefully remove the gravel tonight. If I do it slowly, I guess the pH will only gradually rise. Could minimise any rise if I do the daily water changes using water from another ADA tank (instead of the tap) would that be ok?

It is not necessary to replicate the substrate environment from the main tank. One way to ensure water don't fluctuate away from the main tank is to fill tank with water from the main tank.


Oops, I already gave them a dose this morning.

Keep a close eye on any problem with fry (especially dead fry - hence it is much easier with bare tank). Given the number isn't high, it should be easy to do a daily count.


I know it's not ideal, but so far no-one has a bita anywhereI have tried. That LFS we spoke of, in a previous pm, told me "no more bitas expected" when I rang him. Someone here gave me a lead in Strathfield that someone suggested, but LFS is unfamiliar with the name bita & I've emailed a picture - waiting to hear back. I've advertised, here & on FP, as well as at petlink. If I can get a matching male, that is my first priority. Apart from that, I want my girl to have a full life, I'd even sell or give her away, but only to a good home & only if they had a matching mate. She won't be returned to a LFS.

Bitaeniata aren't that difficult to find - it's only a matter of time. This also allows the female to rest and mature a bit more before the next mate come along. In the worst case, I do have an old (3+ years - possibly one of the oldest bitaeniata around Sydney) F0 male bitaeniata which I can offer his service - he has out lasted all his mates and still going strong. Have not been able to find something decent for him over the recent months (while I was off from breeding fish for the time I had him before 06).


That would be so cool of you to offer that - I'd be really grateful. I would be more than happy with that deal, as I am a newbie & if you can't pull them through, I certainly couldn't either. I would suggest that I keep the 6 or 7 that are still the main tank with mum as I don't want to upset her further & give you the 15 that are in the holding tank. As far as it is possible to tell, I'd like a male & a female in my 50% share of the survivors, if you were kind enough to agree to this.

Happy to do go ahead but cannot guarantee on the survival rate. As for the gender, it would be difficult to tell as pH plays a major role in determining the apisto fry gender ratio. So far all my juvenile apistos (some over 4 months old) are still not old enough to distinguish their gender so it'll be a long wait if you're after a certain pair.

Cheers,
Thomas.

[TW]

Auburn finally have live BBS & they will hold a bag for me, which I'll pick up after work. Told me it only lasts 24 hrs - I thought it was good for 72hrs?

After I get home, I will carefully pick out all the gravel leaving the fry there & do a head count & a 50% water change. If I have surviving fry in the holding tank, I'd like to take you up on your offer for raising them (thank you). After I get it all done, I'll PM you & see how it all might be managed - how I transport them to you in the safest way & where to, etc.

I realise no guarantee, but I figure if they die on you - what chance will I have.

What is the best pH for which sex?

In a worse case scenario, I may also take you up on the offer to use your male's services - thanks again. We could share the fry. For a while I will try to get a male to match, so I can keep the strain pure - unless your male looks like mine? Is he a match?

Thanks so much for your help. I'll get back to you.

(BTW, Aquarium Strathfield just confirmed no Bita - they had something similar, but it wasn't a Bita. They are going to keep my male's pic on file & ring me if they can source one. I'm going to ask Barry at "you know where" to do the same, but he's on holiday now.)

[Th0mas]

Live BBS does not live long unless there's food and environment to keep them going/growing. But that defeats the purpose as they'll use up their nutrients in exchange for growth.

Hatching eggs take between 24 - 48 hours. Believe me - it's easy to setup. Save you the trouble to look around and ask for it. The only drawback is the effort to harvest and replenish the hatchery to maintain a regular supply.

Am no expert with bitaeniata (or any particular species - only a small step ahead of some of us here), only read there has been experiment done with cacatoides and some other species which shows the sexual development of fry is effected by the water pH. Cannot remember which way favour which gender, and it would differ in range for different species.

My male bitaeniata is a stock stand bitaeniata, don't find him any more special than other apart from the fact that he's very healthy and out lasted many other apistogramma I've had. Also - he's quote big (due to his age). He may not be a perfect match to the female you have, but at least I can guarantee there will be no chance of in breeding as he's a wild caught fish.

Thomas.

[TW]

Thanks Thomas,

You've seen mine. Is he stock stand bitaeniata too? I've never seen another bita.

[fishgeek]

generally more males are produced at higher temperatures, bitaeniata wasnt specifically study and the catei group appeared to move the other way to other fish investigated(ie less males at higher temps)

pH was thought to have less influence on sex determination

bitaeniata are black water species so i would be inclined to have low pH saying that you are 3-4 weeks into this and it is best to just work with what you have been on water small frequent changes (daily if possible)

andrew

[TW]

Thanks fishgeek

I have them at 25 degrees & pH under 6 (that's as low as my test kit goes).

Thanks for the info.

[Robdog]

At around 25 degrees you will probably get a lot of females in your lot of fry. I'd say 70-80% female

[TW]

Thanks fishgeek & robdog. I'll up the temp when I get home. What do you suggest?

[Th0mas]

Don't crank it up too high - apisto are not high temperature fish and dissolve oxygen is less at higher temperature.

Thomas.

[fishgeek]

anything above 27 degrees and you will start to get negative effects on the growing fish , ie delayed maturation, smaller body size at maturation, reduced productivity of adult fish, this is not specifically information relating to bitaeniata though for the fish studied appeared to be general

i would say at 25.5 then from what i have read you should get a close to 50:50 split
in my opinion dot change what you are doing


andrew

[TW]

Thanks for the advice fishgeek. :)