How any people feed live worms with no Ill effect????

[*Chris*]

hi guys
i was just interested to see how many of you all actually feed live black worm to your discus?
also just how many of you feed blood worms? frozen or live alike
recently working at Aquarium industries i got into a pretty lrg arguement with doctor jim Greenwood about feeding both of these items to discus . I have always done it i have always wormed them every 6mnths as well if feeding live worms.
in the fish vet world maybe just Dr Greenwoods world :lol: discus are to be fed nothing but brine beefheart and commercially made foods (tinned foods)
The apparent problem is blood worms these days (frozen) are very lrg and have larger skeletel remains than previously and somehow they get caught in a discus digestive tract ??? i thought this would be an intresting topic
cheers
EX-AI

[Nathan]

i feed my discus both live blackworms an frozen bloodworms. ive never had a problem with them, when i started with discus i also thought the bloodworms were no good but i gave em a try an they love them an havnt ever had any problems with them.

as long as you get your live worms from a trusted supplier then you shouldn have many problems

[FishLover]

I was reading the exact topic in AF mag and it says you carry the same risk with live, frozen or frozen dry food.

The reason behind this is that frozen does not kill nasty things. Think about it, these nasty things can come back alive well below 0 C. Frozen dry is no better because it still has some water in it, enough for the nasty things to survive.

The only difference is the processing. Most big suppliers have some kind of process (UV?) to kill the nasty things. As for the small shops, they may not do so. In most cases, live food comes from small shops. That maybe the reason it is more risky than the frozen food which mostly from big suppliers.

Of course, live food is more expensive.

In terms of nutrition, they are almost the same according to the nutrionist.


I think Nathan was right, trusted supplier is the key.

[Mulisha]

I was reading the other day that some people soak there Live BW in Meth blue before feeding.. Would this kill nasties and the worms though or just the nasties..

I feed frozen BW and never had a problem 8-)

[Nathan]

fishlover the big suppliers do a thing called gamma irradiate, it kills most if not all pathogens an nasty's.

ill only buy my live food from the one place as i havenever had problems an know how they are cultured.

[Robdog]

Well who are these live worm big wigs?

[Nathan]

what do u mean big wigs?

[Mulisha]

Big Wigs LOL

did you mean who is selling these liveworms to the public or something like that?

[*Chris*]

everyone knows live worms carry pathogens protozoas and nastys
dipping your worms in meth blue
well thats a no no they will gaurantee die before your fish even get to eat them
live black worm are intolerant to most water conditioners treatments ect...
but having said that sometimes they quiet happy to live in your gravel :lol:
most fish vets are pretty sure they know every thing is to know about fish
and each one has there own theory ............
the funniest thing ive seen mr greenwood do was tell a customer to bring there fish in for an autopsy because he could gaurantee it was a certain pathogen eating away at the fishes internal organs. He was so cocky and smart that his test come back inconclusive with diagnosis written across it........
then to save face he charged the customer 70 consult and sent them away with 100 dollars worth of metro

[goldenpigeon]

no i dont anymore, i will feed blood worms (frozen) but dont feed black worms. i used to but black worms are just to costly for the amount i have to feed my fish. $3.20 worth or live black worm was a light snack for my fish. i had a bit of a problem with the LBW (live black worm) as i didnt think the source was very good so i stopped using it all togeather after going broke and being unsatisfied.

blood worms i dont feed as much because of the cost factor but i cant see any reason not too.

i think it is fine to feed both of the above provided that they are from a reliable source and you have the cash flow (especially for LBW).

i like to feed my fish BS, mysis shrimp, beef heart mix, breeders premium and im about to try tetra bits and a new food thats about to come on the market.

i think live BS is an EXCELLENT option because the dont carry any nasties that can affect our discus, they are full of protien, interesting for the fish and easy to culture yourself and cheap as chips.

all you need is:

. salt
. spare 2ft tank
. air pump and small air driven filter
. small heater
. BS eggs (you wont need them once you grow your BS to adult size and keep them in good condition because will produce live babies if the salt content doesnt increase).
. small jar of spirulina to feed them
. extra 5 minutes on your hands each day for upkeep

HTH
David

[*Chris*]

arghh but you see when yuo buy bulk you save my friend :lol: :lol:
i buy 500grm for $30 and keep them in the fridge with no water in a bag and take some out as i need them
got to know the right people
most shops if you say i need a bulk buy of worms will be happy to chuck five bucks on top of what they pay for them and send you on your way
but you are right brine is the way to go
thats why your the admin and im the snakeskin
****AI bows in exceptance*****
:wink:

[goldenpigeon]

hahaha dont bow to me, just cause i got the name doesnt mean im any better than you. and as i understand it your pretty knowledgeable yourself mate.

plus i dont know many adults who would bow to a 15 yea old ;)

but then again..... bow to your hearts content!

now who was supposed to bring me my refreshments? *watches my minions scurry about*


now for the serious stuff. there is more than 1 way to skin a cat. when i was buying LBW i was like 12 soooo.... as u can understand i didnt have the people skills i have today so it wasnt as easy to open my mouth and tell people what i want and in a lot of cases how it is :twisted:

these days i bulk buy everything hehe

[*Chris*]

after all i was being sarcastic........
lol
no people its in my opinion all of the above products are fine to feed unless you start to find problems with things
live worms as a precaution worm you discus as often as each six months
but then again it is my opinion

[goldenpigeon]

i didnt see any sarcasm there.... its ok man you can admit it! i am almighty, the one, Neo. i answer to God, your highness and ofcourse Davo ;)

hehe

yup these is no "right" or "wrong" way to most things. everything is according to someones P.O.V.

[*Chris*]

15 and he is the one
21 and im being de throwned by a teen
only on the discus forum people
:lol: :lol:

[goldenpigeon]

lol, well im a mod on AFF and AGA as well ;)

[*Chris*]

no comment
:oops:
hey i have a breeding pair of red golden diamonds i rock
:lol:

[goldenpigeon]

hahaha, wow big man eh!

i have a breeding pair of Roy Khoo Spotted leopards!

what ya gonna do now?

[*Chris*]

i have a breeding pair of peppermints :banghead

[goldenpigeon]

i have a breeding COLONY of sterbai corydoras (14 to be exact!)

[*Chris*]

corys are like guppies put them in a tank and they will breed
i might have to change this threads name to goldenpigeon vs EX-AIFISHBOY
the match of who has the better breeders
geeze
now back to the worms
:lol: :lol: :lol:

[goldenpigeon]

i have better breeders for certain, im Neo!

they are still better than your peppermints! :P

i can go all day ;)

[*Chris*]

so can i thats the problem where is diamiond i like him he takes shit from me

[goldenpigeon]

hahaha, sorry but diamond has a little tied up with being suspended from DF.com. so i guess you will have to put up with me while he is gone!

[*Chris*]

so is my buddy rytis
you will do though
nah what other discus you got??/

[goldenpigeon]

Discus- 2 pairs of spotted leopards (on roy Khoo)
- 1 pair red turq
- 1 pair blue turq
- golden pigeons, pigeons, red turqs and other assorted stuff.

yer rytis isnt comming back

[samir]

Well you guys can go the Rytis way and put up pictures of your pairs with a poll, let the people decide :lol:
oh and i've stopped using blackworms or anything live.

[goldenpigeon]

whats the point samir? my pairs will win hands down! so i think AI can just admit defeat and not waste our forum members time with the "my fish lived" story because frankly that doesnt cut it with me.

ILY AI ;) of course u have nice fish.... they just arent as good as mine :twisted:

AI whats the going rate for bulk BW down your way? they are expensive up here....

[Ben]

Before i go on i would like to seperate the Men from the boys!!!

Here is a pic of me and Roy out the front of his Farm!

[Ben]

Now.....

back to the black worms...


If they are %100 clean, live and healthy they are great for all other fish other than discus!

You feed discus these tasty treats and its hard to get them back eating the good old beef heart!!

[goldenpigeon]

like i said i am Neo. it is ONE thing to meet him, it is another thing to HAVE his fish, who is the man now aye Ben ;)

jks mate

[*Chris*]

well ben all those little farms look the sam to me do we have proof
just joking dude if i traveled well :lol: :lol:
then id love to go over there
trust that trip is coming soon

[Robdog]

Well who are these live worm big wigs?

What I meant was, which are the companies that are the major players in the live worm trade. How do we know we are getting the good stuff.

[Ben]

I believe there is only one black worm farm in Australia.

[Mulisha]

I was told that the only Blackworm farm in aus he feeds then dry Catfood 8-)

So whiskas is the way to go.. :lol:

[Ben]

I heard processed oatmeal..

[samir]

Before i go on i would like to seperate the Men from the boys!!!

Here is a pic of me and Roy out the front of his Farm!

Nice photoshop job Ben. You almost had me fooled there, until, by sheer chance, I stumbled across the original. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[goldenpigeon]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! OMG! LMFAO!!!!! HAHAHAHA! Samir you champion!

well i guess that says it all doesnt it Ben!

[*Chris*]

wtf hahahahahahahahahaha
thats the funniest thing iv seen al day lol

[Ben]

LOL!!

just dont post the photo with me in the little pink G string Samir!!

[goldenpigeon]

i think that was reverse psycology he is trying to use on you Samir! he wants you to post a picture of him in a pink G! snap to it bud!

[*Chris*]

purple maybe pink is not your color ben!!!!!
:lol: :lol:

[samir]

hmmm maybe I'll leave that one to the imagination :lol: :lol: :lol: Ben did you get any fertile eggs from that pair :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Robdog]

After a trip to the farm I believe Ben took the long way home past the Rytis family plantation.

[samir]

lmao :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Mulisha]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I think it was Rytis taking the photo :wink:

Nice mate i jee Bens been coping it lately :wink:

[Ben]

LOL!!!

[Mulisha]

Should get it framed Ben and put it up in ya fish room 8-)

[brettmck]

Hi guys,
I am brand new to this forum after years of keeping nothing but africans. I don't want to tread on anyones toes but I have found this topic rather interesting.

I am a big advocate of blackworms, and can not understand all the bad press and hear say that they recieve. I have cultured black worms for many years and have had great success in raising very significant numbers without much fuss. I first started when i was doing aquaculture at university and after some research managed to get some inside info from one of Aust biggest suppliers.

The first point i would like to make is about why everyone is so worried about possible pathogens and treating with meth blue! shocked. Blackworms are actually very clean animals and present very little threat to your fish. In the ideal breeding environment they require very high quality water. My worm system has far more filtration than any of my other fish. If your worms are dying..... you have a problem with water.

Second is cost, like most things in this hobby they can be expensive but with a little investment you should be able to produce enough for your own needs without much expence. I am happy to help anyone who wishes to setup a system.

There is too much to put in this one post so feel free to contact with any other questions. Hope i haven't made myself look like a worm god but experience is there to be shared.... hopefully in the next few weeks i can get some from you as i set my discus tanks

Cheers Brett

[Proteus]

Thanks Brett, & welcome to DF.com

[*Chris*]

welcome mate
by all means post the plans or pics up of your system the more info we get on these worms and peoples experiances the better

see what happens when you travel ben you end up mixed in with the wrong crowd :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Nathan]

yea id love to kno more about your system an anymore info u have on black worms Brett.

oh an welcome to the forum mate

[Robdog]

It's on your head now Brett! As soon as I read your post I went and dumped a bunch of BW in the tank and my Alenquers went crazy. Even the one I've had difficulty getting to eat anything.
It was good seeing them eat with such gusto but kind of felt like I was signing a death warrant.
Oh well! Time will tell.

[brettmck]

:) Thanks for the welcome guys.

I'm in the middle of moving house at the moment so i'll try dig up all the info I have and post in one hit. I've only just moved to sydney and am slowly get my tanks setup so i'll be able to post pics as well.

Robdog, it only a death warrant if they have not been looked after.

I noticed in another post that someone said they live in and eat detritus, and this is why they can carry pathogens. Untrue. The first guy who started to produce them comercially can across them when he was draining down a trout pond at a fish farm. They had been found before but not in such numbers. He found them in the sludge in the pond when it was drained, so he asumed this was where they were living. In order to try and produce more he filled some troughs with the sludge and water. But they all died very quickly.

In actual fact he later learnt that the worms were living above the sludge in the clean water. Most people who complain that worms have passed pathogens to their fish have probably recieved worms kept in poor water with high bacterial load. Blackworms do not eat detritus either. The reason this farmer high so many worms was that he was over feeding his trout and the worms were thriving on the constant supply of pellets.

So if possible when you next get worms from your LFS have a look at the tank and water they are coming out of and ask yourself does that water look clean. Don't blame the worms if they've been kept incorrectly.

I'll post a full system specs and more worm biology as soon as i can. :P

[Mulisha]

That's very true mate can't wait for plans and pics it will be great..
Another thing if you do kno what temp,ph, etc do they like becuase i had some worms and if used my rainwater to put them in they would die after like 3hrs...

Thanks again mate.. 8-)

[Ben]

A very warm welcome to DF Brett.

I look forward to the details regarding a black worm breeding set up.

I wonder if feeding live black worms is not ideal due to the metabolism and higher temperatures discus are in.

I feed live black worms to all of my fish other than discus.

I have never had any problems with the exception of young fish literally eating them self till they explode.

This recently happed to me with 4 small angels.
The silly buggers gorged them selves to the extent their stomachs blew up and they went belly up!

Ben

[Mulisha]

WHOA Ben they really eploded :shock:

Jee that's not a very nice thing to see :cry:

[Dave76]

I've recently started a tub to try breeding blackworms.

Using a heavy duty plastic tub, a thin layer of gravel, about 20cm of water with a really low powered sponge filter.

Feeding bits of cucumber and pumpkin atm - just boil a couple of extra bits when cooking for the catfish and replace when it's all gone. The murky wastewater then goes into my daphnia ponds outside when it gets 'too murky'

Been going for about a month now & I've just started harvesting the worms.

I don't feed to my discus tho - not yet anyway...once I'm happy they are 'nasty free' (checked under microscope etc) I might consider feeding to fry growouts etc

HTH

Dave

[Nathan]

i think there has been a thread on somethn like that happenin on the forum where a discus has literally killed itself by eating to much.

[brettmck]

Hi guys,

sorry its taken me so long to get back on this topic but moving house has sucked away all my time. There has to be an easier way !

anyways, the worms..... Lumbriculus variegatus Can reproduce asexually by fragmentation or sexually. Protein content can be as high as 60%. temp 3 - 28 degrees, 10 - 16 optimal pH 6.8-7.2


I'll go through two different setups. my current one, not ideal but still works. and my preferred method if you have more room. My system atm consists of one 2' x 18'' x 18'' tank. Temp is not ideal at 18 degrees but that is the stable temp of my laundry. pH is generally between 6.8 and 7.2. Tank is filtered by ehiem 2213 which does about 400L per hour and two air powered sponge filters. a weekly water change of about 20% usually works well but some times i can do upto three a week depending on how many worms and how much food is going into the tank. I also add a product called agramilk, which i'm using as a buffer. I add two drops per 25 L. As for food, well i'm feeding dog biscuts atm as on a tight budget. but if you get get some good quality purpose made aquaculture pellets say for trout or barra, you can expect a more water stable food and better results.

Dave 76 - vegetable matter is good as well but all mine go to my catfish and i like the idea of moving the wateer to daphnia ponds. how i hate living in an appartment !! no room for live feed culture ponds.

This setup is giving me just enough to fulfil my needs but considering my discus sytem is still in the planning stage then i'm going to need to upgrade.

My old system, I was living in canberra so cold water wasn't a problem. these guys will live in water from3 degrees to at least 28 for short periods, but the colder the better. I had two large hard black plastic ponds which where 6' x4' x2' deep. i had 70-80mm of gravel in the bottom, this was because i had vallis growing in one end to help with nitrate removal. Both ponds where filter but two large pond filters i got from bunnings and replaced with my own media. I had a davey pump on the system which did about 5000L an hour !! good water flow !! ha ha ha water change every ten days of about 15%. I never ran out of worms ! they were everywhere. I even pulled hugh handfulls out and fed to the local magpies and kookaburras, though their huge beak made it funny to watch. I was feeding trout pellets that i got up in cooma.

My fish are always healthy and fat! the only loses i've had lately were from introducing fish from a suspect source without proper isolation first ! DUMB ME.

hope that helps, water quality and temp are the things to watch and amount to feed(hardest part)

any specific questions just ask.

Brett

[*Chris*]

very informative mate thanks heaps