Sump vs. Trickle

[80in55]

Okay, so I was going to be setting up a planted discus tank. I will have the display being a 55 gal, 4ft tank. Dims are 48x13x20 I believe. I will be drilling for a calfo style overflow in the top left corner of the tank. The weir will not be very large at all, probably about 5"x5"x? or a little more. I will be draining it into the 40 gal which is another 4ft tank. I was going to be using this as a sump system. I can change to a trickle filter just as easily, but I was just wondering which would be better? I would have some peat, a sponge, and some bio rings in the bottom. Also, I may put some substrate down there with some anacris, or just the anacris floating in the middle chamber. I would have the heaters, probes, and such down in that same chamber to save on wiring and ugly things behind the tank. Would a trickle be better, or should I just stick with what I was planning? This will add close to 30 extra gallons of water in my tank. so I would have closer to 85 gallons of water in my system total. I would like to keep close to 5 or 6 discus, a nice school of tetras, and some BN's. Help is much apprecaited! I just want to see what everyone thinks. Trickle or sump

[80in55]

Here is what I am thinking for the sump. The middle part can be changed out for peat if necessary, or even some java moss or anything that will help keep the Nitrates and Phosphates low! What do you all think?

[Nathan]

i cant see the attachment, can anyone else?

[goldenpigeon]

nope i cant

[bushie]

just be aware that if you do run a trickle filter, this will remove large quantities of co2.

you said that you wanted to have a "planted tank" therefore co2 injection is not absulutely compulsury but a massive help with planted tanks.

and in my opinion a trickle filter would absulutely destroy the benifits of co2.

[80in55]

Yea, that's why I was probably going to stay away from the trickle filter. I like the sump idea.

I can open the attachment at three diferent computers. Do you guys have Adobe reader? It is a PDF file

[Nathan]

yea ive got it, for some reason ech time i log onto DF now the adobe reader pops up for a while, this happening to anyone else?

[Tunnel Rat]

All looks good to me but can you add one more divider and change the last one from a up to a down flow to eliminate the up flows from having any media in them.I think its best to have all the media in down flows so your foam or wool will not pop out.Best of all you can add a thin strip of sheet wool to the top of each down flow and you can easily change that strip as the top will get dirty first.With your up flows you will need to remove the hole lot as the bottom gets dirty first.
The up flow dividers only need to be narrow as they will still flow good with nothing in them.

[/img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/Snaper/plantsump.jpg

cya
Rat

[goldenpigeon]

i dont agree with the image above. the compartment that says "from tank" will have to be empty because there isnt a slot under the glass for the water too flow and if there is mediaq in that compartment it will flow out into other compartments.

i think in this situation its best to have the inlet to the sump breaking straight onto media, woll would be best, which also lowers the sounds and improves your efficiency.

why you need plants in the centre of a sump i have no idea.....

the "your plants" compartment should be the very last compartment before the pump, normally this compartment is filled with bio balls and acts as the major biological filtration provider because the smaller compartments pre cleaned the water, remove the particles etc, before biofiltration.

so, the final "media" compartment should be before the "your plants" compartment.

hope all that makes sense...

David

[Tunnel Rat]

Hi
The pic above is his picture that you guys could not open I put one extra divider in it so he had the flow running down though the media not up.
Why he is putting plants in the sump I am not sure (if 80in55 could add why please do) but I have seen it before they have fast growing plants in there to lower the nitrate in the water I do not know for sure this is why he is doing it.I do not like the idea myself.
He has the first area in the sump empty then his first media was ceramic pipe then the next one was bio mat then the plants then foam then pump.
I like your idea of changing the first area as it is a waste empty but do not like the bit about the plants last they will produce a lot of waste on there own so his idea of a foam area last to stop it from clogging the pump is good in my eyes.

OK if you got to have plants in your sump take II
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/Snaper/plantsump2.jpg

water piped into sump under water level to help stop the remove of co2 in the water. Your poly filter pad can go on top of the matrix if you wish.

cya
Rat

[goldenpigeon]

i dont think plants are even in the same league as filter media when it comes to removing nitrates.

plants in the sump is a horrible idea in my oppinion, to sustain the plants you need light and light means algae and a higher power bill.

i cant see the point in having bio mat etc just before the pump, generally it is best to remove all the particles from the water at the beginning of the sump. otherwise the particles will build up on your bio/ chemical filtration reducing effectivness.

if you use the right matterials at the beginning of the sump to remove particles you wont need another compartment filled with mechanical filtration - compartment can be used for other forms.

[Mulisha]

Could you use Lego as what the bio balls would be doing :lol:

[Tunnel Rat]

i dont think plants are even in the same league as filter media when it comes to removing nitrates.

plants in the sump is a horrible idea in my oppinion, to sustain the plants you need light and light means algae and a higher power bill.

i cant see the point in having bio mat etc just before the pump, generally it is best to remove all the particles from the water at the beginning of the sump. otherwise the particles will build up on your bio/ chemical filtration reducing effectivness.

if you use the right materials at the beginning of the sump to remove particles you wont need another compartment filled with mechanical filtration - compartment can be used for other forms.

OK your bio balls,bio mat,matrix, will not remove Nitrate fast growing plants ,water changing or expensive Nitrate filters are the only way to remove Nitrate.
I think you are getting mixed up with Nitrate & Nitrite your bio balls,bio mat,matrix will remove Nitrite not Nitrate.
I think what he is trying to achieve is a self contained natural eco-system they seem to be big in the states.I will try to explain what little I know about what they are maybe then you will understand what he is trying to do.
It is a system in witch the first part of his sump (bio material) will break down all the pollution turning it in to Nitrate which is safe to most fish in low numbers then the fast growing plants will remove the build up of Nitrate which leads to a self contain natural eco-system when done right it will not need regular water changes to remove the Nitrate because the plants do it.

These system are not my cup of tea but each to there own :D

hope that helped



Could you use Lego as what the bio balls would be doing :lol:
lol so true :mrgreen:

cya
Rat

[80in55]

Hey Rat, thanks for the defense and the ideas!

Guys, Rat is right when he says that I want to have a "self contained eco-system" in my two tanks. The fast growing plants I will have in there will be the floating kind, and yes, they are there to help in the removal of Nitrates. The Nitrites will be removed by the media before the "refugium" (where the plants are), and the sponge at the end to catch any leaves or the sort that may come loose and clog the pump. These systems are very big here in the states, and there is a LFS here that is very reputable in Discus, and this is sort of the configuration that they use.

I think the downflow idea is better! You have made me think that media may get out and flow into other chambers. And, I like the idea of only having to grab the top of the media to have to change it out, rather than the whole thing!

Again, thanks everyone for the input!!

[Tunnel Rat]

Hey Rat, thanks for the defense and the ideas!

Guys, Rat is right when he says that I want to have a "self contained eco-system" in my two tanks. The fast growing plants I will have in there will be the floating kind, and yes, they are there to help in the removal of Nitrates. The Nitrites will be removed by the media before the "refugium" (where the plants are), and the sponge at the end to catch any leaves or the sort that may come loose and clog the pump. These systems are very big here in the states, and there is a LFS here that is very reputable in Discus, and this is sort of the configuration that they use.

I think the downflow idea is better! You have made me think that media may get out and flow into other chambers. And, I like the idea of only having to grab the top of the media to have to change it out, rather than the whole thing!

Again, thanks everyone for the input!!

Make sure you post some picks when its all done you can teach as a thing or two :lol:
For me to make a eco-system work I think I would need a plant sump three times as big as my tank as I only keep carnivores bigs lol.
The eco-system has not kicked off over here yet but big in US & Europe.

cya
Rat

[80in55]

I kept large Africans for a while, and even had a 9" bichir in there with them. It was great to watch, and fun to keep, but the nitrates where hard to keep down!! Even with all the filtration I had, it was hard to do! So, I'm trying something different from what I had been doing in hopes to keep the nitrates down!!

[80in55]

So what does everyone think of this idea? I took the plants out, with careful consideration that everyone has given me. I think that the bio-balls may be removed, and the rings put where the bio-balls are, leaving that chamber open for discussion. What do you guys think I could put in there? I like the set up, and would like to have comments on it!

[Tunnel Rat]

So what does everyone think of this idea? I took the plants out, with careful consideration that everyone has given me. I think that the bio-balls may be removed, and the rings put where the bio-balls are, leaving that chamber open for discussion. What do you guys think I could put in there? I like the set up, and would like to have comments on it!

Looks good just add two dividers one to the first part so it flows down though the filter floss first not just over it one to the part just before the pump so it flow though the matrix not over (I think you just forgot the divider line).
This is what a lot of people here are using now called Matrix sumps no bio balls so where you have the bio balls replace it with matrix you will fine matrix will remove ammonia & nitrite not just nitrite like bio balls.
With five section its a bit of a over kill but I love over kill filtration :D

I pick up my new sump on Thursday(thx to Wayne at xtreme) I went for the best of both worlds I used bio balls/spinner first sheet wool then bio mat then bio balls then the water went though the dividers look at pic.
I left the bio balls /spinner in this new sump as I like the aeration it makes but if you grow plants in the tank I would go just the matrix sump with no bio balls or spinner/trickle.
My sump I said I like over kill :D
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/Snaper/mysumpfinished-1.jpg

cya
Rat

[80in55]

So, add the one like this? So that it flows down, then back up?

[Tunnel Rat]

So, add the one like this? So that it flows down, then back up?

Yes thats it but one more at the bio ball chamber so it does the same

cya
Rat

[80in55]

Here is my new idea with the UV filter instituted.

[Robdog]

I would have thought the UV would have been better installed on the return line to the tank.

[80in55]

I could do that, but then I would need flex tubing for the return. I want to have hard lines, allowing for less head pressure. I like the ease of flexline,butI like the hard lines better b/c of them being out of the way all the time