Apparantly, we Discus Keepers are living in the dark ages

[Proteus]

Just thought I would share this with you...

There has been a lengthy debate over on CichlidCity.com.au regarding feeding methods and what to feed. A select few are trying to say that New Life Spectrum shuould be the only food fed to your fish and that we are living in the 70's using nasty ingredients such as Beef Heart and we are cutting the Discus's life span to 4-5 years by feeding them poorly...


I can count the number of discus people that feed any single food exclusively (at least in these parts) on one hand. The vast majority of them are still stuck in the 70's, and feed D grade sources of food such as beef heart, and are happy if their prize fish reach the ripe old age of 4-5 years. Wow, that's impressive.

D grade food sources??? living in the 70's???

...and to think, this person is trying to sell and promote NLS...

http://www.cichlidcity.com.au/-forum-/viewtopic.php?t=7741&start=140

[Merrilyn]

Quick, someone tell all those very successful Asian breeders that they are doing things all wrong and they should be buying terribly expensive dry food to feed their fish.

Ohh hang on. Hasn't this kind of thing been done before ....... Like when the powdered milk companies told all the mothers in third world countries they should be feeding their new babies on bottles cos it was much better for them, than feeding them naturally.

Now that was a huge disaster.

This sounds like the same sort of thing.

JMHO

[Cuong]

First mistake - telling cichlid keepers that NLS isn't any good :lol:
Just the same as telling discus keepers that beefheart isn't very good.

Cult food.

[Proteus]

it continues...


So answer my question, what's the average lifespan of a beefheart raised discus? I don't care how many ribbons they win, if the vast majority of them are dead within 5 years.

Mammal fat simply cannot be assimilated by freshwater fish, simple fact, it accumulates over time causing premature death in fish every year

schmuk, it isnt just Cichlids they are using as a reference, apparently even the most delicate Marine species are better off on a lone diet of NLS... bah

[Merrilyn]

Dry foods have a very important place in feeding fish, all kinds of fish, but it's terribly important to have a balanced diet by feeding some protein foods and some vegetable matter.

Scientists admit that they don't know all the vitamins and minerals that ornamental fish require in their diets. There hasn't been enough scientific work done in this area. So the safest way to ensure you fish are getting all they need is to feed a varied diet. I do agree with the comment about not being able to assimilate animal fat. That's why we use beefheart as a base (it has very little fat) and trim it of all fat and sinew before use.

I really can't agree with feeding one food to the exclusion of all else.

I feed a variety of dry foods as well as beefheart mix, bloodworms, brine shrimp and mysis shrimp, exactly the same as a lot of other very successful discus breeders, and my fish breed and thrive.

Asian breeders produce their top winning fish on a diet of beefheart and minced vegetables. I don't think any of them feed prepared dried foods. They rely on a varied diet and clean water.

Seems to work for them. :wink:

[Proteus]

cough cough... gotta love this, from the same person...


The requirement of feeding fish a wide variety of food is perhaps one of the largest misconceptions in fish keeping. Aquarium raised fish do not demand a varied diet; but they do require a highly nutritional & highly digestible diet that contains a wide variety of ingredients.

Usually the reason given is to ensure that all of your fish’s nutritional needs are being met. This may have been true in the past, but with New Life Spectrum there is no need to supplement with any other product.

Sometimes it's difficult to not get caught up in the hype of mass-market advertising by various fish food manufacturers, but quite often that’s all it amounts to, hype.

Most fish food companies design & market their products for people, Pablo Tepoot makes fish food for fish.

With other brands of food there is no guarantee on the overall health and longevity of your marine fish, and feeding only one formula of food exclusively to marine fish, with long term positive results, only applies to NLS.

Now I have see some marketing mumbo jumbo in the past, but that takes the cake.

[sammigold]

I have noticed alot of people on another forum that also use this NLS stuff and swear by it... I was wondering if it is some sort of "sect" LOL...

there is not much room on some forums for difference of opinion... I am very glad that our guys on Discusforums are so friendly ... I am loathe to give my opinion on some forums but never worry on discusforum as I know that everyone here is friendly and informative without shoving it down your throat.. and they dont crucify you for having a different way... its all about sharing and caring.... and I am sure that NLS is as good as any other food but as a part of a varied diet not an exclusive diet... JMO (I can have that here. LOL) starts humming.."Im livin in the seventies....."

[samir]

Just goes to show that there's a Brilliant in every forum :lol:

[Proteus]

and I am sure that NLS is as good as any other food but as a part of a varied diet not an exclusive diet... JMO

Exactly... I have used NLS in the past and was not happy with it. I also know a lot of people that either wont touch it due to various reasons, on the other hand I know people who do use it, not exclusively, but the majority of the time.

My main issue is the hard sell the people that sell it employ, plus other factors such as price consolodation amongst several retailers. As for the people that sell it and use it, whatever rocks there boat. Personally I use no less than 6 or 7 brands or types of foods... it works, the fish are healthy, thats all that matters.

[mistakes r crucial]

We entered the world of producing fish food around 9 months ago and all I will say is that I was quite amazed at the BS that flies around. This one, that one, when you get down to brass tacks the ingredients appear to be pretty much identical. All we've done is added a brilliant product called NatuRose and taken as much crap out of our mix as possible, oh, which includes allegedly toxic preservatives such as Ethoxyquin, take a look at your flake and pellet food people and then do a Google search on that preservative.

The one thing that does amaze me is that every product that I've looked at that states it will naturally enhance the colour of our fish neglects to tell us what that natural ingredient is. I often wonder why!
MAC

[Proteus]

In regards to the product MAC talks about, that is something I will support. The product is scientifically proven to do what it says, and is naturally derived. Most people here know what astaxathin is, and it has its place in this hobby.

The same company that will be producing this product, as mentioned above will be a sponsor here on DiscusForums.com very soon. Aside from personally supporting all the sponsors here, I would not allow a product, company or service that is dubious be part of this community, and IMO, that is where the NLS product stands, due to the way in which it is promoted and the false truths that are perpertrated daily by there henchmen.

[marg]

Sounds like the person promoting that Food is a Salesman for the Company :lol: :lol: .,

Marg.

[Proteus]

Sounds like the person promoting that Food is a Salesman for the Company :lol: :lol: .,

Marg.

That they are, and the sad thing is they are so tunnel visioned over the product. If it works or not, so what, but to actively promote only feeding one type of food is irresponsible IMO

[taksan]

Geeze NLS is just fish food .... nothing more nothing less then a brand of fish food. Why on earth do these people think its something special ?
Anyone who feeds only a type of prepared fish food of ANY brand and doesn't feed a varied diet including fresh and frozen foods is not following best practice.

[mtchye]

Totally agree with you Proteus about the hard sell tactics employed by NLS proponents. Funny thing is that it is those people who HAVE been feeding a good and varied diet to their fish that see NO difference using what used to be a really expensive product. However, I would like to say that it is a decent food, which the fish do like, but I did not find it better or worse than a whole host of other types of foods out there.

Apparently it is much cheaper now. When it first came out I wanted to see what the hype was all about and was severely underwhelmed.

The marketing strategy works though because there are a whole lot of people spouting a huge amount of anecdotal "evidence" due to the differences they have seen when their fish are fed an acceptable diet. :D

Again, nothing against the food at all, but I just think it is very over rated.

I'll stick to scientifically designed foods with ingredients and components that I know... based on proper, documented evidence rather than anecdotal. I think accusing discus keepers of being from the dark ages certainly takes it too far and they may have been better off letting sleeping dogs lie so to speak lol...

My 2 cents,
Vincent

[Proteus]

We entered the world of producing fish food around 9 months ago and all I will say is that I was quite amazed at the BS that flies around. This one, that one, when you get down to brass tacks the ingredients appear to be pretty much identical. All we've done is added a brilliant product called NatuRose and taken as much crap out of our mix as possible, oh, which includes allegedly toxic preservatives such as Ethoxyquin, take a look at your flake and pellet food people and then do a Google search on that preservative.

Thanks for raising a valid point MAC about Ethoxyquin.


Ethoxyquin is listed and identified as a hazardous chemical under the criteria of the OSHA Hazard Communication Standard (29 CFR 1910, 1220).

The Chemical Toxicology of Commercial Products says that ethoxyquin has a toxic rating of 3 (on a scale of 1 to 6, with 6 being super toxic requiring less than 7 drops to produce death). At that level it can slowly develop depression, con-vulsions, coma and death; skin irritation and liver damage.

In a recent study by The Department Of Pathology, Nagoya City University Medical School Japan, it was found: ethoxyquin promoted kidney carcinogenesis. Also, it significantly increased incidence of stomach tumors and enhanced bladder carcinogesis.


As a result of publicity in pet magazines and newspapers, there have been inquiries about the safety of ethoxyquin. Some have suggested this approved food additive is responsible for a wide range of common health-related problems such as lethargy to thyroid and
kidney problems, reproductive disorders and even cancer.

Ethoxyquin is a chemical preservative used in animal feed to prevent
ingredients from reacting with oxygen and becoming rancid.

Now lets look at what NLS has listed as ingredients... using Marine Fish Formula as an example...


Krill Meal, Fish Meal, Wheat Flour, Amino Acids, Algae Meal, Soybean Meal, Fish Oil, Beta Carotene, Spirulina, Vitamin A Acetate, D-Activated Animal-Sterol, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Niacin, Folic Acid, Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine, Biotin, Dl-Alphatocopherol, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate, Choline Chloride, Cobalt Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Ethylenediamine Dihydroiodide, Ethoxyquin

Aside from Ethoxyquin, I would not want Copper sulfate in my reef tank no matter how small the dosage.

I will point out that other brands of food do contain Ethoxyquin, however they are clearly labeled stating it is a preservative, and used well below FDA maximim allowable levels, none of which appears on NLS labeling.

[Proteus]

However, I would like to say that it is a decent food, which the fish do like, but I did not find it better or worse than a whole host of other types of foods out there.

Vincent, I agree with all your comments and my beef is not with the food, the people that use it or sell it. It is with the importer and distributors. Obviously there are some distributors out there that realise we arent stupid, and that we can do our own research into what we use, however there is a small band of so and so's that continue to push the same line. If anything they are doing more to hurt the product than promote it.

[Robdog]

Just goes to show that there's a Brilliant in every forum :lol:

Speaking of pushy salesmen, has anyone else recieved any special PM's from our friend Brilliant? I got one this afternoon. Quite a funny fella.


Content removed, however it was totally unacceptable and will be dealt with - admin

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: K Thx

{admin edited}

[Proteus]

But Rob, you must remember, we live in the dark ages still...

ug

[samir]

Nope Rob looks like you're the lucky one, :lol: :lol: :lol:
I think Brilliant's an RO salesman

[dcarmau]

I dunno Samir, I'm wondering if he's planning on shipping Amazon Water direct? I mean, surely that's what needs to be done if you're -really- recreating Discus Fishes' environment! :lol::lol::lol:
Maybe he was performing pre-sales marketing for it?

[Robdog]

I'm gonna start growing some huge sideburns and crank out my dad's flares if we are still in the 70's!

[k9outfit]

Meanwhile, back at the ranch :) ....

I've been feeding my Africans NLS exclusively for around a year & 1/2 now, and I have noticed quite a difference in them. Mainly the reds/yellows are way more intense than on the high quality food they were getting before. Also, once mature, my fry are considerably more colourful and intense, than their parents. I won't go back to using anything else, unless something I personally feel is better, comes along.

On the other hand, my Discus won't touch the stuff, and so they get everything, but NLS.

And before I'm tarred & feathered, no, I don't sell the stuff. Also, I don't buy into the food hype - whether it's fish food, dog food or human food. If it works for me, great, and I'll keep using it; but I won't try to convince everyone that it's better than whatever else is available... All I can say is I really like the stuff, and I'll definitely stick to using it on my Africans.

[goldenpigeon]

k9outfit no one is going to tar and feather you for using it. i used it once upon a time, fish hated it, stopped using it, oh well, it works for you and thats good.

no one here is saying its a good or bad food. its beef is about people marketting it and giving rediculous claims that the product is all you need to sustain healthy fishes.

if you use it exclusivly, good on you, obviously it works for you, might not work that way for others. its all good man. we all need to have different oppinions otherwise everything would be boring.

thing is there is a lot of good stuff out there and what works for me might not work for you.

its like the old saying "everything is good in moderation", while that is pretty general its very true. you wouldnt like to be fed steak all your life (unless you really like it lol), i guess we can say the same for our fish :)

[RD]

And the band played on ...........


Whilst there seems to be some serious concerns about marketing, I'll leave that issue up to the people who market the food in OZ to deal with.


My only concern is with the spread of misinformation, which seems to be rather common from what I've read over the past several days.



Now to address some of your previous comments.

For a starter ...... the ingredients listed on the previous page are not entirely accurate. The formula has changed somewhat since that label was used.

Yes, ethoxyquin is still on the label, but a little news flash for you, NLS does not add ethoxyquin to any of their foods.

It's added to most fish meal products that are made, or shipped into the USA (and various other countries), at the initial stage of processing that particular raw ingredient.
While some manufacturers may add 'extra' ethoxyquin to their formulas, NLS does not.

The overall inclusion rate in any NLS formula is miniscule, far below the FDA max, and I believe that by law New Life was not even required to add it to their labels, due to the fact that they do not add it to any of their formulas themselves.

So much for that ..........

BTW - not that I believe everything that the US govt has to say, but here's their spin on ethoxyquin.
http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/ANSWERS/ANS00119.html


FDA REVIEW FINDS NO ADVERSE HEALTH THREAT FROM ETHOXYQUIN

As a result of publicity in pet magazines and newspapers, there have
been inquiries about the safety of ethoxyquin. Some have suggested this
approved food additive is responsible for a wide range of common
health-related problems in dogs, from itchy skin and lethargy to thyroid and
kidney problems, reproductive disorders and even cancer.
Ethoxyquin is a chemical preservative used in animal feed to prevent
ingredients from reacting with oxygen and becoming rancid. It is also used
in human foods as an anti-oxidant as well as to preserve color in paprika
and ground and powdered chili. The following may be used to answer
questions:
Ethoxyquin and other anti-oxidants, such as BHA and BHT, have been used
in animal feed for more than 25 years. FDA has published food additive
regulations for safe levels of ethoxyquin's use in animal feed at a maximum
of 150 parts per million -- equivalent to 0.015 percent of the finished
product. Specifically, the approved animal feed uses of this additive are
(1) to retard oxidation of carotene, xanthophylls and Vitamins A and E in
animal feed and fish food, (2) to retard oxidation of Vitamin E and carotene
in dehydrated forage crops and (3) to retard organic peroxides in canned pet
food.
-MORE-


Page 2
A five-year study in dogs (1959-1964) by Monsanto Agricultural of St.
Louis, Mo., found no pathological changes attributable to ethoxyquin. A
1982 literature search by FDA's Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition
found no evidence that ethoxyquin was carcinogenic. In 1988, a second
literature search carried out by FDA's Center for Veterinary Medicine found
a 1987 paper that reported on a 23-week study in rats. The study used a
dose level of 5,000 ppm ethoxyquin -- far higher than approved levels --
that suggested a carcinogenic potential. Because of this, the agency
nominated ethoxyquin for toxicity testing under the National Toxicology
Program in Research Triangle Park, N.C. A decision on whether this testing
will be undertaken is expected to be made late in 1990.
To date, FDA has found no scientific or medical evidence that ethoxyquin
used at approved levels is injurious to human or animal health. Also, FDA
has found no documentation of the claims of harm to any animal. The agency
will continue to review any new data generated on the safety of this
ingredient. Should any adverse health effect be documented, FDA will not
hesitate to enforce the Federal Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act to protect the
health of humans and animals.


The FDA allows ethoxyquin levels of up to 100 ppm in human grade foods (such as chilli powder & paprika) and up to 150ppm in animal-grade foods, although I believe there are certain groups that are now lobbying the pet food industry to reduce the level to 75 ppm for dog & cat food.

Just about everything in life is harmful if one consumes too much, including vitamins. And yes, I still eat chilli, and use paprika from time to time. :P




As far as copper sulfate, you said
Aside from Ethoxyquin, I would not want Copper sulfate in my reef tank no matter how small the dosage.

That's interesting, considering the fact that copper is an essential trace element in all living things, sea water contains copper, as do all marine salt mixes on the market. (in the ppb range)

see link below
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/12/aafeature1

Copper sulfate is even used in certain meds that are designed specifically for marine tanks. http://www.aqcraft.com/s9907.html

So while one certainly has to be careful with the levels of copper sulfate in a marine system, the amount used in NLS foods is undetectable by even the most sophisticated equipment. Don't believe me, feel free to take some NLS into an independant lab & have my claim verified.


BTW - I have never once (ever) stated that every single last fish (fresh water or marine) will eat NLS, and if I owned a fish that I could not convert to NLS, I'd certainly find something else that I could feed them.

Having said that, beefheart wouldn't be on the list. :P

[Proteus]

RD, isnt it funny the amount of forums that NLS is not welcome at now...

Seems waruna is so pathetic he cant mount any form of an argument so calls you and his other little girlfriends to help him.

First rule in business, KNOW YOUR PRODUCT, he doesnt, all this copy paste rubbish, then calling for help from you is hilarious.


Yes, ethoxyquin is still on the label, but a little news flash for you, NLS does not add ethoxyquin to any of their foods

Rubbish, are you blind? It is clearly labeled on all NLS foods that I have seen. Go do a google of any supplier who has the guts to list all the ingredients...funny thing, Ethoxyquin is there. If it isnt there, why label it?

And yes the band plays on, with more and more people and businesses boycotting this product you keep trying to ram down our throats.

To those that use NLS, I will make it clear, I have no issue with that, it is the deceitful and BS tactics used to market the stuff.

I wonder why several of the sellers are banned here, due to fraudulent activities trying to coax interest in the product by setting up bogus usernames and trying to post and reply to promote what they are trying to sell. Sorry but those tactics dont work down here, and all the offending posts, user details and ip addresses are on file for anyone who is interesed so as not to conduct business with them.

[Proteus]

btw, waruna, RD, pacco...

One thing I will not tolerate is having some lowlife like one of you abuse another admin on a partner website, especially when the abuse was directed at a Female.

Yes, I may be old fashioned, but I am so glad to see the NLS sponsorship cancelled there, and that is only the start of it. Now it is personal.

[mistakes r crucial]

RD,

First and foremost, what a load of crap. Do a bit more reading on Ethoxyquin before you start your propaganda on this forum. Take a look at the debate that is raging in the States and the amount of damage the stuff is doing to animlas over there. It's convincing to say the least!

Secondly, you mean to tell me that you registered on this forum purely to continue your propaganda? I feel sorry for you, now do us all a favour and run along, there's a good chap.
MAC

[Proteus]

Yes, ethoxyquin is still on the label, but a little news flash for you, NLS does not add ethoxyquin to any of their foods.

It is my understanding that it is a prosecutable offence in the U.S. under the FDA & the USDA laws to have ingredients not labeled, or labeled if they are not actually present.

I can assure you that AQIS & The Australian Customs Service would be interested to hear such claims, as every food item or product derived from a raw ingredient needs to have a detailed permit to be legally imported into Australia. We have some of the most strict laws in regards to this and if you dont dot your i's or cross your t's correctly they can reject all such products, and destroy all stock that is currently within the country if it is found to have been mislabeled.

So RD, are you willing to stand by your comment now?

[goldenpigeon]

HAHAHAHAHA!!!! RD you ******* idiot! OMG! hahaha ur a dumbarse! you really know how to draw negative attention to your product dont you! hahaha what a joke your making of yourself.

tell me, why is beef heart bad? if you and me too one fish each and you fed it on NLS and i fed it on my beef heart food do you think yours or mine would live longer, grow faster and to full potential, have greater colour, be more lively? and i could keep going. i could 99% guarentee mine would be the greater of the above! (i think it would be best tested on discus)

you make your product out to be a joke! keep going bud! you will be out of business very soon hehe! more room for better products on the shelves!

[samir]

see link below
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/12/aafeature1


if only someone gave me a dollar for everytime advanced aquarist was mentioned on this forum. :roll:

[Proteus]

I will add, before anyone thinks the bossman has lost it, or gone too far... :roll:

I consider this to be a very happy and helpful community, with very few, if any flare ups or issues. However, when somebody attacks anybody that I consider as either a friend, a collegue, a respected and contributing member of this or other sites I own, or have an affiliation with, watch out. I will do everything in my powers to bring you down and destroy whatever you are doing. harsh words, but that is the way I operate...

This started out as a reference to false or fictitious comments made elsewhere, some of which went against what many of us have been doing, or for that matter feeding our fish with for many many years. At this stage only one of the offending party has attempted to try and smear us with more of this NLS mumbo jumbo, I am sure more will come.

Let me ask you this, S****** Australia, previously known as Hydro Pacific used to import NLS, they dumped it very hastily for very good reason... Now I am sure people will do some asking, and some will find out the answer. Then see if you would ever use this product again.

[RD]

Proteus ..... you might want to read this again, real slow. Just in case you still don't get it, I've bolded the important portion.


Yes, ethoxyquin is still on the label, but a little news flash for you, NLS does not add ethoxyquin to any of their foods.

It's added to most fish meal products that are made, or shipped into the USA (and various other countries), at the initial stage of processing that particular raw ingredient.
While some manufacturers may add 'extra' ethoxyquin to their formulas, NLS does not.



I also want to add, I haven't said anything to anyone from admin, or otherwise on the other site, so please direct your rants at those that you feel have. One of the admin left a link to this thread on cichlid-city, and I'm assuming that they got that link from you.

Either way, I didn't come here to convince anyone that chilli powder & paprika won't kill them, and I didn't come here to start WW III.

Happy fishkeeping ........

[Proteus]

Ok, I read it slow, and quickly, doesnt matter... still says the same thing.

NLS is responsible for the Ethoxyquin being there.

Why?

NLS controls what is added to the product, if they didnt want it there they would seek another supplier. Whereas NLS chose to keep using the same supplier, that means they endorse the additive and might as well put it in themselves.

Doesnt matter at what stage it goes in, it is there...

NLS is responsible for the finished product, end of story

[RichVic]

Just wanting to get a bit philosophical for a sec,
Did anyone ever have to do a big promotion on anything that was so obviously great? I mean news of breakthroughs spreads like wildfire
by word of mouth. Not paid, professional mouths but kinda, well, User mouths. Let the product be sold by word of mouth, thats the proof of the pudding (that's in the eating!)

[Xtreme]

Hmmm.
May as well have my say.
Living in the 70's? Born there, - perhaps the person who made this comment is still there themselves, or at least is as broad minded as someone still living in that era - who knows.

As far as feeding fish NLS exclusivley, if we ate only one type of food forever, how healthy and good would we be feeling??
NLS is not the be all and end all of fish food. There are many varieties out there that are far better and much cheaper - in my opinion.

All I can say is it is a great thing to import a product and market it, everyone has a right to earn a dollar. But to not take any opinion on board from established well respected and informed fish keepers / breeders is pathetic - in my opinion.
And to disrepect people for having an opinion, is disgraceful.

And to blatently get personal and slander small, very hard working businesses who have nothing to do with any of the BS going on, well, I wont say what I really think.....

Every respectable company takes on board any comments made by users, and chooses to use them accordingly. To throw it back in a user or even non users face is irresponsible, again in my opinion.

BTW we do not stock or use this product. Nothing against the product or its users, we just find that a variety of food works, and good old commen sense prevails when it comes to feeding our fishy friends.

And I agree with the saying, "If you dont have anything nice (or intelligent) to say, bugger off and dont say anything at all!"

[marg]

Very well said Xtreme.

As for saying that you should only feed one particular type of Food, what bullshit!!. How boring for the poor Fish.

I cam miles from being any sort of an expert however may I say that there are many members on this Forum who have been keeping and breeding Discus quite successfully for many years by feeding them a variety of Foods - INCLUDING a Beefheart mix (one person we all know has been in Discus for over 30 years and has some beautiful Discus - fantastic shape and size) - and their Fish are perfectly healthy and happy thank you, so IMO a varied Diet speaks for itself.

Go annoy another Forum.

Marg.

[samir]

Well you're always going to get an idiot or two in each forum. I think its best to just ignore them. There's no point arguing with retards, I feel its best to just have a laugh at what they say rather than getting into heated arguments. The're probably some teenagers with half a brain.

[mcloughlin2]

Well i use NLS on my africans ... and to be honest there colour has not changed at all....yes its a decent food....but its nothing special....

Im a member of cyphos.com (a frontosa forum) and alot of the members there feed there fish NLS as a base food, however they add flakes and brineshrimp etc to the diet...

Now i have never heard of any other forum that compliments NLS as much as they do, but when one of you idiots went on there trying to sell your food - war broke out...keep the story short, im pretty sure it was said that there is no other food needed in the diet just as what was said here.....

I will try to dig the thread up. But what im trying to say is if the frontosa nuts dont feed their fish NLS exclusively, then it must not be all its said to be....

I feed my cichlids NLS purely because i found a container at a very nice price, is a nice sized pellet and i wanted to add another brand of food to my fish's diet....

Theres been no colour change, there not breeding any more then usual and i havnt experianced above average growth rates...

JMHO...

[Merrilyn]

Well, gee, I just want to see some scientific proof for some of these wild claims.

I bought some of the stuff and used it on my fry and older fish. Couldn't see much difference after 2 months, so you're going to have to do something serious to convince me (and others) that it's better than most of the other quality foods out there.

Otherwise, as someone else on here said, just run along, there's a nice fellow.

[RD]

When you dilute NLS with other foods, you will also dilute the end results.


BTW - I happen to be on very good terms with the admin on cyphos.com, and no, I don't sponsor their site, and the owners have no vested interest in the food. Many members there add nothing more than the occasional treat of mysis/krill to their staple of NLS.

Here's a poll that was taken on cihlid-forum in Nov 2005, where 85% of the voters, voted NLS as the best pellet food for cyphos.
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=97223

Also, I have no problem with people that feed a varied diet, I never once have said that I do. What I have said is - if your fish will eat NLS, they will thrive long term on that diet, and that diet alone.

[Merrilyn]

What I have said is - if your fish will eat NLS, they will thrive long term on that diet, and that diet alone.

RD I'm not saying that the food isn't good. I raised a batch of angel fry on NLS alone. Couldn't find any difference between them and the batch fed on a varied diet. They both grew.

But geesh, where's the scientific proof.

Where are the results of the double blind study done by an independant testing facility.

You just can't go making claims about a product without providing proof. Discus keepers, and fish keepers in general, are a highly educated bunch. They have valuable fish in their care. They need scientific proof, and so do I.

[discusmaster]

RD, I give you credit for having the nads to stand up for what you believe in, regardless of how flawed it may be.

I also applawd the admins & advisors here for allowing this to be debated without getting too far out of hand.

I think you will find most of the issue down under is the person or persons marketing and selling NLS, some of which have had no experience in the actual aquarium industry until they took NLS onboard, and now they are just being too argressive in the tactics. To also have the importer abuse not only admins on websites which are provided free for the public, but then to have to call others in to back them up is a little weak.

I would suggest that since you would probably have regular contact with Pablo, a serious discussion be had, as from word travelling around the hobby down here, NLS is getting a very tarnished name, and it is not because of the product.

[RD]

But geesh, where's the scientific proof.

Where are the results of the double blind study done by an independant testing facility.

New Life would welcome any independant testing facility to perform a long term feed trial on NLS vs any/all other brands currently on the market. Pablo would pay for the testing himself, but obviously there would be those that would feel he had somehow influenced the results, if he paid for it.

BTW - are there other commercial foods that can provide data such as what you request of New Life?


You just can't go making claims about a product without providing proof.

The proof is in the fish that have already been eating NLS exclusively for the past several years, and there are plenty of fish keepers world-wide that do just that, myself included.


Discus keepers, and fish keepers in general, are a highly educated bunch.

Like the people on this forum that have referred to me as an idiot, a retard, a teenager with half a brain, and a dumbarse?

Look, my skin is as thick as a rhino's, and comments like the ones made in this thread by 'some' members give me a good chuckle, but I would prefer to debate the simple facts on fish nutrition, and not play tit for tat with the childesh remarks.

When it comes to fish nutrition, I can swap spit with the best of them, but usually what happens is the facts tend to get ignored (such as what happened when I responded to Proteus about copper sulfate) and people
respond with their personal beliefs, and/or snide comments.

When it comes to aquaria products, including fish food, trust me, I am the biggest skeptic out there. I don't own my soul to Pablo Tepoot, or anyone else. My words are just that, mine, and if I could find a better commercial product that gave me superior results than what I have been seeing when feeding NLS exclusively, I'd the first one in line to buy it, and I'd be spreading the word far & wide.

[RD]

BTW - I have no intention of getting involved in the various politics etc of what is, or isn't, taking place in the sale of this food in Australia. I don't know, nor do I care. If there's a problem, I'm sure that Pablo will address it.

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi RD,

We are in the middle of a labour of love right now, launching a little boutique food for tropicals which will include a natural colour enhancer called NatuRose.

During our research we looked at many of the commercial colour enhancing foods including Spectrum and without exception none of them mention how or what they colour the fish with. As you obviously know this product very well can you tell me what ingredient is used to colour fish. Is it a natural form of Astaxanthin, a synthetic form or some other carotene. I'm not trying to be a smart ass here, I'm genuinely interested as I find it rather strange that no brand I can find lists the actual ingredient that enhances colour
MAC

[Jadels]

Hi RD,
During our research we looked at many of the commercial colour enhancing foods including Spectrum and without exception none of them mention how or what they colour the fish with. As you obviously know this product very well can you tell me what ingredient is used to colour fish. Is it a natural form of Astaxanthin, a synthetic form or some other carotene. I'm not trying to be a smart butt here, I'm genuinely interested as I find it rather strange that no brand I can find lists the actual ingredient that enhances colour
MAC

This would have to be because they dont want to give away their unique and special ingredient that 'dramatically' enhances the fishies colour. If they put it on they would be giving the secret away to the world and then everyone could steal it and make an equal fish food, to their superior food. bahahaha!!! :wave2

[RD]

Hi Mac,

Many commercial fish foods now contain astaxanthin, some use natural forms such as Naturose, some synthetic forms such as Carophyll Pink, some use both. One of the color enhancers that NLS uses is Haematococcus pluvialis, and it is indeed natural, and comes from Cyanotech, the makers of Naturose.

But here's the rub, the fish food biz is a multi billion dollar industry, and some of these specific ingredients, as well as their percentages, tend to also fall under proprietary information. No fish food manufacturer in their right mind is going to lay everything out on a silver platter for their competition.

Also, there are virtually no state or federal agencies (here in North America) that actually check these ornamental fish food products before they are sold to consumers. A fish food manufacturer can say almost anything they want, and place almost anything they want on a label, or their web site, and there is very little to stop them. Overseas companies have rather loosey goosey rules & regs as well.

Unfortunately some manufacturers take advantage of that fact.

Canada's only real concern is with mad cow disease, so if the food contains animal products or by-products, or was even produced in a plant where these ingredients are used, then they take issue & importing can become complicated.

NLS has a clean bill of health in that regards.

Keep in mind that there are numerous forms of color enhancers, astaxanthin is only one of them, and if used excessively can make fish take on unnatural coloration. A Cyanotech rep once told me that it can also increase aggression issues in fish if one uses too much, although I have found no data to support that.

The key to natural color enhancement is finding the proper blend, and balance of these various ingredients. Some manufacturers can't be bothered, and use lakes & dyes to achieve low cost results. They work, but can have long term affects on the fish, just as they can humans. They also tend to 'over' enhance certain species, especially fish that are primarily yellow. Ever see an "electric yellow" Labidochromis caeruleus turn orange, that's why.

I won't name any brands, check for "lakes & dyes" on your fish food labels, one brand seems to be very popular with discus keepers.

HTH

[RD]

Another quality product that Cyanotech produces is their spirulina.
IMO one of the best on the market. Most hobbyists have very little understanding about this ingredient as well, and assume that a high inclusion rate will produce superb results in most herbivores.
Not exactly. You can read more on this subject here:
http://www.cichlidcity.com.au/-forum-/viewtopic.php?t=7894

[mistakes r crucial]

Thanks for that RD, I'll get back to you shortly.
MAC

[shayesmommy]

i use nls and frozen of many kinds. Im sorta late on this one but i like nls and its more habit to feed my babies frozen then nls. Nsl is easier when im running out the door and they want to eat. lol
But i think of it this way. would you like eating bread everyday all day? Thats all you were allowed.
I feed all my animals, fish and everything a very varied diet. And it works for me

[RD]

Wow, a fellow Red-Deerite, small world ......

What if that varied diet could be contained within one staple food? I can understand a fishkeeper wanting to mix things up for their fish, it's human nature, but let me ask you this, exactly what, if anything, do you feel that your fish are receiving nutriton wise from a varied diet, that they aren't receiving if fed NLS exclusively?

Is there an essential amino acid, lipid, carb, vitamin or trace mineral missing? Something else perhaps?

Hey, don't get me wrong, for years I too fed a varied diet, now I feel that I no longer have to, and the kicker is that my fish look better now, than when I was feeding 4-5 brands of commercial foods, as well as frozen.

Take a look at the fish shown in the pic at the bottom of the page in the following link:
http://www.newlife.ipbhost.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=159

Do those fish looked bored of their diet?

With my fish I now have to feed them though an opening at the back of the glass top, because if I lift one of the lids the fish go into a frenzy & send water flying everywhere, and these fish certainly aren't underfed. (African Cichlids)

I understand that Discus can be finicky feeders, and that in some cases they may not take to the food, I've never argued that point, and of course if that's the case then one obviously needs to find an alternative dry food. But, if they will eat it, they will indeed thrive on that one food, as my experience & research has proven to me that everything that a cichlid needs to truely thrive, is already in the jar, and more importantly, in the proper balance.

If one mixes things up too much, there's always the chance that your fish will receive too much, or not enough, of some of the essential nutrients.
The link to the spirulina thread posted above is a prime example of something that you do not want to feed in excess, yet many people do, in the belief that herbivores require large amounts of this ingredient. It simply is not true, and in fact will most likely cause long term health issues due to the incredibly high vitamin A content.

Some people believe that copper should not be used in a commercial marine food (as posted earlier in this thread), yet the fact is that the vast majority of commercial dry foods do in fact contain this essential macronutrient in their vitamin & mineral premixes used in their formulas. It's an essential trace element in all living things, but like most ingredients can also cause serious issues IF it's used in excess. It may not be listed separately on the label, but chances are good that it's in there.

[sharn]

perhaps we should take all the nice bugs and bits and pieces out of the wild for our wild discus friends and just send some planes over a few times a day with some NLS in it to sprinkle down to them? i hear your beefheart gripe but i wonder if you realise how many things go into it, it can potentially contain so many vitamins that it can be used as a complete food if you wanted to, heck it could probably be used as a staple for humans. if it tasted good i would eat my recipie!

seeing as you are trying to market and get customers i think perhaps its best to silence a bit, your definatly not making any of us who havent tried it want to. if you stand behind it so much why dont you get independant tests done, ones that we cant say have been tampered with.

i wonder if you can find any highly respected people in the fish industry that will agree with your statement that it can be fed solely with nothing else in their diet? you wouldnt eat the same thing day in and day out just cause its good for you, i feel its only fair that my fish get some varity also and no amount of marketing by you, or anyone else is going to change my opinions on that one. hand me a food for them thats 100% complete and i will feed it, but along with other foods also.

[RD]

FYI - if I was attempting to market & get customers, I wouldn't wate my time on a forum based in Australia, as I live in Northwest Canada. :wink:


i wonder if you can find any highly respected people in the fish industry that will agree with your statement that it can be fed solely with nothing else in their diet?


http://www.ida-may.com/other/new-letter.jpg


Last I spoke with a professor at the University of Florida in the Dept of Fisheries & Aquatic Sciences, who happens to specialize in dietary habits & nutritional disorders of fish. I was told they had used New Life Spectrum "for years", as a control diet in studies, as well as for newly arrived fish that are placed into quarantine, and that it "performs very well". I suspect that if they are using it for newly arrived, stressed out wild fish, for years, that they must consider it to be a VERY well balanced nutritional diet.


Having said that, once again I'm not in any way attempting to tell anyone how to feed their fish, I'm only saying that if your fish will eat NLS, they will thrive on that diet alone.


Feel free to prove me wrong.

[Ben]

RD

You have bought up some very interesting and valid comments. I actually agree with you that specific NLS fish foods can be fed solely as a staple diet and that those fish will live and breed well.

Personally I choose not to, I find it becomes a moral issue for my fish. I want my fish to eat varied foods, even including clean and parasite free live foods. No creature in this world should be forced to eat only one type of food if a varied diet can be fed.


With my fish I now have to feed them though an opening at the back of the glass top, because if I lift one of the lids the fish go into a frenzy & send water flying everywhere, and these fish certainly aren't underfed. (African Cichlids)

I find this a poor example, (most) African Cichlids behave the same way simply by walking past their tank.

I must thank you and everyone else for keeping this debate/subject organised and clean :!:

Regards
Ben

[RD]

Fair enough Ben, but here's a moral quandary for you.

What if you kept certain marine species that were very prone to certain ailments such as lateral line disease, marine ich, and hole in the head, and no matter what you fed these fish they would never last more than a few months before starting to slowly wither away. Not even the widest of variety of fresh/frozen & commercial dry foods would keep them from getting ill.

Then one day someone gave you a fish food to try out, and slowly but surely all of these conditions were eventually reversed, to the point where the fish were now border line fat. IOW, these fish looked better than you had ever seen this species in captivity.

Would you now consider feeding this particular food exclusively, or would you still feel that you should go back to using various other foods that you know for a fact were not providing the nutrition that your fish required?

Which diet do you feel that your fish would prefer?

[Ben]

I would do whats best for the fish so RD, in that scenario I would feed solely NLS.

[RD]

Thanks for your honesty Ben, I appreciate that.

Of course with most fresh water fish, keeping them alive, growing, breeding, and showing decent color should never be a serious issue. But the same cannot be said for many of the more delicate marine species.
Some marine keepers consider keeping certain species alive for 6-12 months as a major achievement, while others have been keeping these same species thriving for 'years' on an exclusive diet of NLS.

Here's a review from a marine keeper that was having some serious health issues with his fish, and what he had to say about the TherA formula.
http://216.187.96.54/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=20606

The person above is just an average hobbyist, with no vested interest in NLS. I know maybe a handful of local people on that forum, and I do not sponsor the site.

Over this past year I've been reading more comments just like the one in that link, from hobbyists, not distributors or retailers, and these people are thrilled to finally have a food available that does what no 'varied diet' ever seemed to achieve for them.

Personally I can't think of anything negative about a situation like that. Healthy fish, and happy fish keepers is always a good thing in my books.

[Merrilyn]

RD what is your commercial interest in this product?

In Australia we have laws regarding "Honesty in Advertising".

It's actually illegal to make claims about a product without having the facts (scientific, not heresay) to back it up.

Did I understand you correctly ......... there have been NO independant scientific studies done on the nutrition of this product?

Is all your passion simply based on anecdotal evidence provided by the manufacturer?

If you are a genuine fishkeeper who is an NLS convert, well and good. Thankyou for your opinion, but I think enough time has been spent on this debate.

If you have a commercial affiliation with NLS, again thankyou, but your time of free publicity has definately come to an end !

[RD]

Sorry, I thought that was clear from the previous thread.
I sell NLS within Canada.
http://www.cichlid-food-canada.com/

[Merrilyn]

Then I thank you for your comments, and your opinion.

I am now closing off this thread, and will allow equal time to the manufacturers of other fish foods if they so desire.

[RD]

You're very welcome. 8-)

[mistakes r crucial]

RD,

For someone that doesn't have an agenda you sure can talk the talk, you're obviously a very polished sales person and that is a compliment, there aren't too many around.

I also agree with much of what you have said but I am not convinced and never would be that one particular food, regardless of what it is, is the B all and end all of fishkeeping and breeding. I agree with the majority of people on here, variety is the spice of life!

One question I will ask you though. As NLS allegedly uses Haematococcus pluvialis (natural micro algae/astaxanthin), why on earth, with all the brains NSL must have behind it, would they use clear containers when the same Haematococcus pluvialis is extremely sensitive to heat, light and oxygen?

In my opinion and according to the research we have carried out, your colour enhancer would be rendered useless within a matter of weeks once opened or left on a shop shelf?
MAC

[RD]

Nonsense, I suggest you do some more research .....

[Merrilyn]

Time gentlemen please.

Thankyou all.