Aggression & feeding problems - Apisto Bitaeniata [Archive]

Sun Jul 02, 2006, 12:05 PM

I have a juvi pair of Apisto Bitaeniata in a 90L tank, with the only other residents being 2 otos. The female is not at all tolerant of the male. She must have let him close on at least one occasion, as within a couple of days in my tank there were eggs, but she has eaten them now.

But whenever she sees the male, she goes after him. He doesn't need to be anywhere near her, but if she spots him on the other side of the tank she charges, tries to nip his retreating tail & chases him away. He is bigger than her, but seems a wimp & just runs away.

I don't have a spare empty tank, but thought perhaps I could move her into my community tank for a couple of months (provided she behaves in there). Then after the male has had a couple of months alone to establish his territory & maybe even mature a bit, I could move her back in & watch what happens.

Has anyone had this problem and how did you solve it. While fry would be nice, having the male fish survive is my highest priority. If need be, I'd rather have a happy male swimming around than either one who spends his life hiding from his female or (worst case) a dead male.

Also, finding it very hard to get these fish to take pellets. I try to drop them, so they fall right in front of their faces, but whether on purpose or by co-incident, they always turn away just before the food would have been in vision. These fish are supposedly tank raised, so I'm surprised that they don't get the hang of eating pellets.

How do I solve this problem. By day 5 of no eating, I gave in & bought some brine shrimp, which they did eat.

What to do? Any advice would be appreciated.

Th0mas

Sun Jul 02, 2006, 12:45 PM

Firstly congratulation on your aquisition, and they've spawned so soon.

This kind of agression is common for a spawning female, here's two things you can try:

- place log, wood, plant, etc to provide places for him to retreat
- place him in a fry saver, so he can recover while keeping her away.

It has been reported domestic agression of spawning pair often resulted with the death of the male. Totally understand your situation as the bitaeniata "Tefe" aren't readily available in Sydney (probably you've got the only pair).

As for the eggs disappearance, I wouldn't blame on the apisto - could be the ottos as they do remain active in the dark and can wander into the spawning site where they've snacked on the eggs. How long did the eggs lasted? Any fungus on them?

What pellet do you feed them with? Generally apisto can be quite picky on food, but they won't resist on bloodworm or brine shrimp. One word of caution on bloodworm - don't start on them too quickly as some apisto cannot tolerate in their system and can die from having too much of it.

Tank raise doen't mean they're trained with dried food. Also it can be hexamitas (where the fish just don't have any appitite), watch out on the fish's condition and if they're getting thinner and thinner treat them with flagyl.

Cheers,
Thomas.

wickedglass

Sun Jul 02, 2006, 01:04 PM

in addition to what Thomas has suggested, another trick for hiding places is to place floating tubes in the tank so the male can hide there, or divide your tank visually with rocks or plants or easter island heads or whatever you like to about 15 cm high. This has worked for my A. agassizii trio, I have them in a 2 ft tank and both females have their territories on either side of a stacked slate wall where they can't see each other, which the male can swim over from one side to the other. And if your female can't see the male, she won't aggro him, but he can keep checking on her readyness at will.
I don't feed my fish blood worms, but use blackworms instead, as the hard bits on bloodworms, such as the mandibles, could injure a fish's gut. One way to get a fish to accept the taste of flake or pellet food is to grind it really fine and mix in a little water, place your live or frozen worms (thawed) in the mixture for a few minutes and then pick them out and feed your fish with them. It may take some time, but I've weaned fish off live/frozen food using that technique successfully. Another one is to get them to take live worms from a worm feeder, and once they come to expect food from there place some pellet/flake into it before adding worms and they will get some of that with their worms.

Th0mas

Sun Jul 02, 2006, 01:43 PM

Used to feed live blackworm as well but found them too much trouble and costly.

Buying in bulk keep the cost down (especially when you have discus), but the worm cannot stay alive for too long in a small container and has to be kept in the fridge to prevent it from going off (and this is where the missus disagree).

The other factor with blackworm is potential of parasite.

If the live worm escape from the fish's mouth, it can somhow survive and multiply in the substrate. This can server as occassional treat for your fish (and they're clean from unwanted parasite), but somehow I've found the blackworm that lives in the tank's substrate just don't have the black colour (turns purple/redish colour).

As for trouble with bloodworm, therefore they should be given a good mix of food (and not purely on the worm) to avoid the potential of digestive problem.

But most importantly, if the fish is getting thinner by the days - take him out and treat him with some flagyl (before he gets wasted away). Even though he may pick up occassional live food, but it may not be enough to get him back on track unless treated.

Thomas.

Sun Jul 02, 2006, 03:12 PM

Wow, thanks to you all for replying so quickly. I had thought about putting the male in a fry net, but thought that might have been mean - but I might give it a try.

It was definitely the female who ate the eggs, this first batch of eggs was near the front of the tank under some driftwood & I watched her eating them. The colour of the eggs looked good, very similar to the colour of spectrum small fish pellets I'm trying to feed them with. But maybe they developed fungus & I just couldn't see that.

They seem to be scared when I drop the food in the tank. I've been using Spectrum pellets for small fish. I will try all the various tips for feeding that you've all given me. Thanks very much.

If I need to treat with flagyl, do I get that from LFS?

I have tried to visually divide the tank - but maybe I didn't get the divisions high enough. I found a long, thin (but curvy) piece of driftwood, about 8-10cm high, when I was using as a sort of fence for the male to swim across, but I guess I should have gone higher. Next time I'm at LFS, I'll see what I can find that's higher. Here's a pic & you might be able to see the driftwood I used. On the left hand side, the driftwood might appear to have "disappeared" but it's just that I've tied some java moss to it.

So I think I had the right idea from what you guys have suggested, but the division is probably not high enough to allow him to swim freely behind it. Trouble is, before she ate her eggs, her territory seemed to be at the front of the tank - therefore I provided most of the cover at the back - but she seems to have moved to the back herself now.

Sun Jul 02, 2006, 03:14 PM

My camera & photography skills are very poor, but here is a picture of my male.

Sun Jul 02, 2006, 03:15 PM

and another with his fins spread. He is a juvenile & LFS said his colours will improve as he matures.

Sun Jul 02, 2006, 03:16 PM

and a shot of the two together, before she turned into such a terror.

Th0mas

Mon Jul 03, 2006, 12:51 AM

Flagyl is a prescription drug for human consumption, but the active ingredient is exact identical for treating fish as well.

Some LFS may have some on hand for emergency, ring around and they may let you have a few. Otherwise explain your situation with your GP, the dosage can be found in the following thread:

http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7289

As for the pics, are you using a digital one?
What is the max optical focus you have on it?

Mine isn't great, takes a while to figure out how to get a better/clearer pic. The problem with most digital camera (not the latest and greatest one) is the small optical zoom with the auto focus only option. This make it extremely difficult to get a clear shot at a small fish, so what I had to do is to get focus to a bigger object near by and move your hand either forward or backward slight to adjust on the offset. Just keep shooting until what appears on the small LCD screen looked sharp (but may not be the case when you load it up in the computer).

Thomas.

Mon Jul 03, 2006, 01:01 AM

Thanks for the advise re the meds.

Re: the camera. I have a very basic kodak easyshare digital camera. From what I can see, I have no way to sharpen the pics. I can zoom in & out, but the more I zoom in, the worse the pic seems to be. I can take pictures on non moving items (rocks, plants etc) but my fish are always a blur. I wish I could take better pics. I'd love a better camera, but unfortunately, finances don't allow this at the moment.

kevkoi

Mon Jul 03, 2006, 02:15 AM

Not to pour cold water, but that really doesn't look like A.bitaeniata "Tefe". Tefes don't have that yellow/orange band running on the base of the dorsal. And the face of the Tefe variant is yellow. Not metallic blue.

These are A.bitaeniata "Tefe".
http://www.rva.ne.jp/apisto/32307-20060428.htm

The fish you have look like the A.bitaeniata "One of the Peru variants". Nonetheless, beautiful fish... bitaeniata's are generally stunning.

As has been said, try a little bit of live food (black worms) every once in a while to get the pair into spawning conditions. It's quite normal what you are seeing when the fish are breeding.

kev

Mon Jul 03, 2006, 03:02 AM

Thanks for the input Kev. As you say, a stunning fish, whichever variant. I'd never even heard of A.bitaeniata until I stumbled across this pair in a LFS. You know me, it's all about the colour & he has beautiful colour & finnage. My camera sucks & can't really capture the fish & in real life, he is no-where near that blue. He has the irridescent blue specs on his face & body, like on your link, but not the yellow on the face. Only thing I can say, is LFS had a labelled picture in a hard cover book & it matched the fish. If can get him to eat & survive the females aggression, he should colour up more as he matures - at least I hope so. For interests sake, it would be good to know which variant, if only so that I can correctly label fry (if I'm ever that lucky).

One day in the future Kev, I hope I can buy a fish through you. I know I'm not going to get this name right, but I'd be interested in Apistogramma viejita II (or something like that). I'd like a pair of them one day. But I have yet to get my hubby to allow me to set up my next tank - I'm still in the scheming stages. I've got as far as the tank is bought & sitting in the garage & the light is ordered - but the rest will take time.

In the meantime, I hope the female doesn't kill him & I hope everyone's advice works & I can get these guys to eat something other than live brine shrimp. I bought some frozen cichlid dinner today & I hope they will eat that tonight. I hope I don't need the meds, but glad I have a name to ask for if I do.

Thanks Kev for the input.

Mon Jul 03, 2006, 03:02 AM

Robdog

Mon Jul 03, 2006, 04:46 AM

They should happily go for the frozen stuff you've got. Every apisto I've ever had has had no problem with those FishFuel Frozen dinners if they are the ones you are referring to.
The marine one is really good too. My inka's tear it apart!

Mon Jul 03, 2006, 10:08 PM

No luck with the frozen cichlid dinner. I'm going to see if I can find the flagyl. So, I dissolve the tablet in the water, doing a water change every 24 hours & re dosing for 4 days? Does that sound right?

Thanks

Th0mas

Mon Jul 03, 2006, 10:16 PM

Best to dose him in a small tank so other fish aren't effected (while saving on your dosage). Perhaps an ice cream container floating in the tank (to keep the temperature up) while replace the water when needed from the tank.

Shouldn't need to water change so often (as it will dilute the medication) unless he's in a small volume of water without any filtration.

Thomas.

Tue Jul 04, 2006, 01:14 AM

Thanks for the tip. Will an ice-cream container float? I didn't know that. In an icecream container, floating in the tank - there'd be no filtration. If I'm able to find the meds, do I redose daily? My GP wasn't available today (not till 5pm) & didn't want to ask a GP that I don't know, as I feel awkward asking anyway. In the meantime, will also try to get the Waterlife produce.

BTW, how do you feed with the cichlid dinner. I thawed half a cube out & then dropped a little bit in for them, but it went uneaten. Any special tips when using this food.

Robdog

Tue Jul 04, 2006, 03:17 AM

Tue Jul 04, 2006, 03:25 AM

Little bit of tank water in one of those measuring cup things that often comes on top of medication bottles. Drop in your cube of food or half a cube or whatever, mash it around with your finger of choice when it's thawed and pour into the tank. This way it gets to all parts of the water column so everyone gets a feed. :)
Unless you have a footlong ghostknife then just give him a whole cube to himself so he stops eating your cardinals :xThanks Robdog, so I almost make it into a liquid & pour it in?

At this stage, they are alone (other than 3 otos, who won't eat this food anyway) the problem has been to get them to eat at all (they're a new purchase & so far have only taken live brine shrimp & that only sometimes.)

Robdog

Tue Jul 04, 2006, 03:34 AM

I would say that most of the rarer apisto's in my experience take a little longer than average to aclimatise to being in new surroundings. Saying that though, you can be lucky and move them one day and have a spawning seesion by the evening.
If they're not eating or only occasionally then only put a little of the frozen stuff in. When it's mashed up it goes in like an upside down mushroom cloud and if the otto's aren't interested in the cleanup duties then you'll have a lot of decaying food sooner or later.
Some people have suggested adding the medication to food but would be pretty tricky if they'll only take live BS.

Th0mas

Tue Jul 04, 2006, 04:20 AM

Problem I've found with flagyl is the tablet doesn't dissolve readily, so it would be difficult to say how long before the whole thing gets dissolved.

Thomas.

Tue Jul 04, 2006, 09:20 AM

How do I tell if the fish are sick & need treating, or it is just that they refuse the particular food I'm offering. They only ate a little of the brine shrimp I gave them today?

My husband went & picked up a packed of tablets that the LFS has packed as own brand, but handwritten the name Octazin on it - so I assume it is like a "no frills version". There are no dosage instructions on the package & the tablets themselves have nothing on them to suggest the strength of each tablet.

The tablets are about 1 & 1/2 cm diameter & 4m thick. I'm reluctant to dose when I don't know the strength, or even if they are sick. I note from advice here it should 25mgs per 1 litre bath - but I don't know what to do. LFS is shut until after I already will have to leave for work tomorrow - so another 24 hours before I can treat, if it is required.

What else should I be looking for to establish if the fish are sick. So I can treat them & observe their eating habits, I have each of them in a separate breeding net, in their tank. Maybe they didn't eat the brine shrimp as much because they are depressed being in the breeding net? Or maybe because they are sick.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Th0mas

Tue Jul 04, 2006, 10:23 AM

Octazin is the same stuff as flagyl - just made by Waterlife for aquarium uses (instead of human). The main different (from memory) is the concentration of the active ingredient is less with Octazin, while they'll cost more. So in the end you'll be paying more for the same purpose. Chemically there's no different.

The decision is really up to you - if the fish is loosing weight and thinning out, while passing stringy poo (when you catch them doing it), then it need to dose.

The drug is relative harmless to the fish (at recommended dosage), so it should be safe to treat when you're feeling uncomfortable about it's condition.

As for the dosage level, you'll need to check the amount of active ingredient per tablet to work out the what to use per litre of water. Perhaps someone here can help out.

Another alternative is to feed live blackworm as suggested by Chris, most apisto cannot resist them and will keep eating until they're all gone. However if he's not interested, then it is fairly certain he's got a problem.

Thomas.

Tue Jul 04, 2006, 11:00 AM

Thanks Thomas

It's not Octazin by Waterlife, but some tablets in a plastic bag with LFS name on the bag with a handwritten name "Octazin" . No dosage instructions & nothing to say amount of active ingredient per tablet. I'm a bit annoyed about that, because I feel I now can't treat for another 24 hrs, after I ring LFS to find out amount of active ingredient per tablet.

I think I would like to have started treatment tonight, but I don't like guesswork.

I will try to find live blackworm, not sure who has it near me. It's not the same as bloodworm is it. I have some frozen bloodworm, but I've read how bloodworm is not that great for cichlids.

fishgeek

Tue Jul 04, 2006, 01:32 PM

octazin is a trade name , and as such it should not be a cheap version of the stuff
bit like selling home brand cola as coca cola

to tell if your fish are sick and actually need the metro is another matter
1st check their enviroment , water conditions are the most important things
nitrite levels can put apisto's off there food before other fish

if you are happy with the enviroment

then look at faeces
a small floating chamber,plastic jug,ice cream tub with the fish in will catch the poo whilst you cotinue to do other things
this should be examined microscopically fro any protozoan or worm egg's

generally observation and experience are what give you an idea on health of fish
respiration rate and gill colour
body posture, fins clamped etc

inappetant fish can be due to slowly progressive problems of a simple internal nature, for instance worms, early diagnosis and appropriate treatment is important in those instances

secondly ask the supplier of the fish what they were eating previously

Thomas , how did you discover that octazin contains metronidazol? waterlife are extremely secretive with there medication content in the u.k
and also i believe metronidazol is still a prescription medication and as such if it is inoctazin would not be able to be sold without a prescription at the fish shop or such?! confused on that
andrew

Robdog

Tue Jul 04, 2006, 01:42 PM

Everyone has their own opinions about live foods and whats best for apisto's or cichlids in general. Some people swear by blackworms and some don't like them at all (Thomas :wink: ). But one thing is for sure, as Thomas said, they find them extremely hard to refuse just like a fat kid and a cupcake.

I also think it was pretty careless of the LFS to supply you with a controlled (prescription in humans) drug without any sort of dosage info. Thomas might be able to correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Octazin by Waterlife comes in liquid form in a bottle not a tablet. It might be easier to administer rather than disolving a tablet so might be worth the extra that you pay.
If you ever see a Waterlife bottle of meds, you'll also notice the lack off anything informative on the bottle such as what it actually treats. Just to make it not only expensive but confusing aswell.

Robdog

Tue Jul 04, 2006, 01:44 PM

Actually Thomas never mentioned fat kids or cupcakes so...... :?

Th0mas

Tue Jul 04, 2006, 02:46 PM

Octazin is variant of metronidazole which is a commonly known fact around Sydney (not sure where it started from but I think it might be written on the bottle many years ago - and that's how I had the impression it's at a lower content of metronidazole per tablet when compared with Flagyl). All Waterlife's meds are liquid form except for Octazin.

I've never used Octazin, but had access to Flagyl (another form of metronidazole) which were sourced from other people.

Keep monitor of the poo, and if it's stringy without much solid - then metronidazole should do the trick.

Go to the other board "aceforums.com.au" and do a search for "metro", "flagyl" and alike. There should be plenty of results where some will disclose the dosage.

Thomas.

fishgeek

Tue Jul 04, 2006, 05:05 PM

i have emailed waterlife to check this
i doubt i will get a straight answer , hopefully i am proven wrong

seems strange to me that metronidazol is a controlled medication in both australia and england and the powers that be would allow it to be sold with no specialist advice

andrew

Robdog

Tue Jul 04, 2006, 05:28 PM

Octazin isn't actually available anymore for sale in Oz. I'm pretty sure most of their other meds are available tho.
I got some tabs of metro through an LFS but I don't think it was an advertised sale item and therefore I won't mention the shop. I was asked what fish it was for, what was wrong etc and was informed of the correct dosage and steps to take so I have no problem with them issuing it. I'm also NOT anyone of authority that would care enough to blow the whistle on them.
Play on I say

Wed Jul 05, 2006, 01:59 AM

Thanks for all the extra advice. I suspect that my LFS is doing the same as Robdog's and that was the reason for no labelling etc. I now have the dosing info so I can start treatment when I get home from work.

Thanks, I'll let you all know how things go.

Robdog

Wed Jul 05, 2006, 02:11 AM

Good luck TW. Hope you get good results as they are beautiful fish. Keep us updated.

Wed Jul 05, 2006, 08:49 AM

I have the female in a breeding net, so she is separated from the male. I put some black worm in with her and she ate them all. So, because she ate, does this mean that she is not sick & doesn't need the medication.

The male is free swimming in the tank and I put a couple of the black worms in one of those worm cones. I can see my tank getting very infested. I only put a couple of worms in the holder, but the make their way out very quickly - quicker than he even knew they were there.
Any suggestions on how to stop them escaping so quickly from the worm cone.

He ate at least 2, but might have eaten more if more were still in the cone, but they had all well & truly escaped - probably to multiply in my tank & make an awful mess.

Any hints on these worms & worm cones appreciated.

Also, I've seen no funny poops from the fish & now that they ate these, does this mean they don't need the meds? Would it hurt them (or my otos) if I did a "just in case" treatment?

Thanks, Robyn.

Th0mas

Wed Jul 05, 2006, 01:48 PM

Metro should be safe with ottos, and if you noticed your fish has picked up weight, it's a good start. I would hold back from the med and keep the food going in daily until he's back to the usual active self again.

Recently I've got too many apisto too quickly, and work got a bit out of hand and didn't pay enough attention until tonight - and discovered having some massive problem with many of the species (some already disappeared without a trace).

Took the whole evening to isolate all visually ill (as well as potentially) fish, and they're going through their metro treatment now. Not sure how many will pull through as I fear some are already too far off from bringing back. (luckily I've always keeps a few metro around for security, just like having panadols for our own self)

The MIA are: 3 x gephyra, 1 x bitaeniata kleei, 1 x trifasciata and 1 x dicrossus filamentosa.

Fortunately this chaos is only happening in holding/community tanks. All species/breeder/honeymoon suite tanks are safe.

Fingers crossed.

Thomas.

Robdog

Wed Jul 05, 2006, 04:05 PM

TW I doubt the worms will go off somewhere and multiply. They'll most likely go off somewhere and go off. Most of the blackworms that we get in Australia are cold water worms bred for trout I believe and don't live very long in temps above 10 degrees. Can't remember where I read that but thats why you should keep them in the fridge.
The worms will burrow down into your substrate and kark it and become an organic fertiliser provided there aren't hundreds of them because then you'll have a big decaying problem.

Robdog

Wed Jul 05, 2006, 04:10 PM

I'm having a bit of strife too Thomas with my community tank. Recently lost an Aggie trio, caca female, massive male krib and two big bristlenose. I've been noticing huge, fat, off colour poo around the place too. Orange Flash has a permanant string out his bum too. I'm thinking I've got a good case of worms. What do ya reckon?

Th0mas

Wed Jul 05, 2006, 10:00 PM

Rob,

Overly fat or thin collaspe tummy while the fish is showing lack of interest/activity with food as well as stringy poo - it's likely to be flagellate. Without any laboratory test to check out the sample of their poo, it will be difficult to confirm. But I would start treating with metro at this stage to avoid further degradation to their condition.

Take out what you believed is ill into a bare tank and treat them there, while do a water change in the tank where they came out from. That's what I done last night.

Thomas.

Wed Jul 05, 2006, 11:02 PM

Sorry to hear some of you are also having trouble with your apistos :cry:

So I shouldn't worry about the escaping worms - but also shouldn't feed worms more than once or twice a week?

Just so I can get all the different meds straight in my head, Octazin is the same stuff as flagyl (but more expensive). But what is metro? Is it that the same as flagyl & prescription only?

Cause he only ate 2 worms & I didn't know if that was enough or not, I put in some live brine shrimp too - I didn't see him go for any of those, but maybe he did in some dark corner of the tank. He is a timid fish & does not like me near him (thus the difficulty feeding him the live worms, as when I was putting them in the tank, he just ran (swam) away & hid.

I don't see them losing weight yet, or doing stringy poos, but in my mind I still think that they are not going to make it, due to their fussy eating habits.

BTW, what is it with fish disappearing without a trace. This happened to me too, with some otos in the community tank. They are simply just not there :!:

Th0mas

Thu Jul 06, 2006, 12:25 AM

It's quite common for apisto to develop such problem. Being small fish - they don't have the capacity to handle infection for too long before it's terminal.

When I used to feed live blackworm, I used to feed daily (yes, can be VERY expensive). Now I've gone to hatching brine shrimp and it's more economical (still feeding daily with dry food suppliment for most species).

Escaped blackworm will survive and breed/propagate in the substrate. The aquarium substrate provides enough nutrient and oxygen for them to live (unlike a tub of stagnate water), and occassion fish will detect the worm near the substrate surface and they'll dig them out (especially with corydora and loaches) - it's great fun watching them work their way to their favourite food.

Metro is short for metronidazole. Given no-one can confirm Octazin uses metro as an active ingredient, so this believe is only based on the word of mouth from experience fish keepers around Sydney. Best is to check with the LFS where you got the tablets from. Flagyl contains 400mg of metro per tablet, while I believe Octazin is 250mg per tablet (not exactly sure, but definitely less per tablet compared with Flagyl).

Those MIA occur when there are catfish/loach alike in the tank where they'll happily scavenage on the carcass. cichlid will rip open any dead fish's gut in no time and consume the content at the first instance (rotting meat is really soft so it's easy to rip apart). Given most apisto are small, the remain can be finish off by other catfish type of fish during the night. There's skeleton, but small fish have small thin bones, and only noticeable when the structure is still intact. After a few days, it's most likely to be ripped apart into individual pieces. And in my case, these bones will disappear without a trace over a few days due to the acidic nature of my tanks.

Thomas.

Thu Jul 06, 2006, 12:34 AM

Thanks again.

I know I have too many questions & it must get annoying.

So, now I'm thinking from your response, that surviving worms aren't a problem anyway, cause my apisto will/may find them & eat them. No bottom feeding fish in there to help out with this task.

I wish I had the experience to tell if they are sick, but as you say they are small, & I note your comment that they don't have the capacity to handle infection for too long before it's terminal. So I think a "just in case" treatment wouldn't hurt.

What you say about the disappearing fish bodies would make sense, but I don't have any of those fish you mention. In the tank in question, I only have B.rainbows, platys, guppy, sterbai cory, otos - that's it. I stripped down the tank looking, but cannot find 2 missing otos. :shock:

Th0mas

Thu Jul 06, 2006, 12:41 AM

The guppy, rainbow and swordtail usually responsible for the start of cleanup while cories and ottos will finish them off during the night.

If your tank is planted, it is possible the carcass is hidden amongst the vegetation somewhere. It maybe difficult to spot by human eye, but will will find them as these are food to them (however it should be taken out as eating dead fish can lead to outbreak of infection - I think that's what happened in my tanks).

Thomas.

Thu Jul 06, 2006, 12:44 AM

Thanks Thomas,

I know its important to find them & remove - that's why I stripped the tank out. Pulled out all rocks & driftwood, removed all my stem plants and looked really well into the the leaves of my low growing plants. So I guess all were eaten & nothing to find. I didn't know otos would eat dead fish, as I thought they were strictly algae/vegetable eaters.

Thanks for everyone's help.

Fri Jul 07, 2006, 01:28 PM

I feel a bit more positive today about feeding them. Spoke to LFS who sold them to me. He said they will only eat the frozen brine shrimp & blood worm and I had success today, with both male & female spotted eating the frozen blood worm. LFS said to get Hikari brand - he says they are enriched. Don't know if that's right, but will try to get some of those. He said they won't eat the dry processed food. I think he should have told me all of this when I bought them, but I know now & I feel happy that they are feeding.

Temporarily, I have the female separated from the male, so he can acclimatise in the tank on his own hopefully, when I return her in a couple of weeks, he will feel like he is the king of the tank by that time.

Fingers crossed that all will be well. Thanks for your help.

Fri Jul 14, 2006, 01:27 PM

All now is well. The feeding is sorted out & the aggression appears to be sorted out too. Temporarily removing the female, while the male settled worked. They are back together & he appears to be the dominant one now, but all is peacefule for the time being.

Thanks for help.

Sun Jul 23, 2006, 10:18 AM

Yippee, I have wrigglers in the tank. The male does not appear to be helping out with guarding at all, so I hope she can keep the pencil fish (dithers) at bay.

The female leaves them from time to time - she still seems to be trying to tempt the male. She is still wearing her beautiful breeding dress, which is sooooo much nicer that her drab every day look.

Don't know how to get liquid fry food to them. I hope at least some survive, but at least I know my water can support both eggs & hatching (at least).

Yippee

Sun Jul 23, 2006, 10:19 AM

Be sure to read my above post though - I have wrigglers. Tried to delete this - as was double post - must be blind, I can't see the delete button.

Robdog

Sun Jul 23, 2006, 12:17 PM

Well done TW.
They should be okay feeding on algae and stuff in the tank until you can find a way to get some BBS to them. Got any pics to share

Sun Jul 23, 2006, 10:21 PM

Hi Robdog

They are really tiny. She is not moving them around the tank yet, but seems to keep them in a little group near some driftwood, which is tucked behind a grouping of java moss balls. They are hard to spot with the naked eye, against the dark wood & the dark ADA aquasoil in the tank. My camera is very poor & I know it would never be able to capture them (I think I posted a picture here - you will see how blury it is - my camera cannot cope with movement.) If I am lucky and they survive to a bigger size, I will definitly try to get pics. I probably can't get any BBS until Thursday & then I still have to figure how to get it down to them.

I left a small desk light pointed at their little hiding spot, while the lights are off, as I've heard that helps her protect them from fry eaters. But I don't think she's very experienced yet, as she leaves them for a few moments at a time (always quickly returns) but still, that's enough time for a pencil fish to have a snack, particularly when the male doesn't seem to be helping out at all.

Not all that many either - so maybe that is another sign of her inexperience. Still, I am pleased that she got this far. :D

Th0mas

Sun Jul 23, 2006, 10:31 PM

First round usually have less from the female. Also depends on the size and age of the fish.

My juvenile pair of agassizi "Tefe" redback only produced around 30 fry on her second attempt (first round was a false start - eggs eaten within 24 hours).

Thomas.

Sun Jul 23, 2006, 11:28 PM

Th0mas

Mon Jul 24, 2006, 03:30 AM

Thomas, this is at least her 2nd attempt. I spotted her eating her first batch of eggs. I'm sure that she has much less than 30 - I would say she only has 1/2 dozen or so. Maybe some have already been someone's snack, or maybe just not a large hatching rate, or maybe I just need glasses. I only have 2 otos & 4 pencil fish in there with the parents & the otos shouldn't be a threat at all.

Someone has suggested I get food to them via a small air tube, so I will try to get some liquid fry food to them that way tonight. Probably can't get my hand on BBS until Thursday night.

I'm guessing I should put this weeks water change on hold.

Pencil fish should be a problem for them, the only concern would be the otos.

Using a air tube feeding is one way to direct food to the fry without having it spread around and get wasted and foul the water. BBS is always the best choice when it come to food for fry. Where are you located? If it's too much bother with live cultivation, you can use frozen ones (but will cost more).

If water change is gentle enough, it should be fine.

Thomas.

Mon Jul 24, 2006, 04:08 AM

I have frozen brine shrimp already - but not the baby. Guess I could cut it up really fine though - that should work ok. I also have frozen daphnia & bloodworm (all hikari brand) as I can't get the adults to eat anything else. Daphnia is really small - how would that be?

thanks,

Th0mas

Mon Jul 24, 2006, 04:45 AM

Frozen BS isn't the same as frozen BBS. BBS is more suitable for fry due to the BS hasn't used up it's nutrition into developing as well as the lack of hard exoskeleton for them to digest.

I've used frozen daphnia before, not really good for fry (a bit too big). Hikari don't make frozen BBS, and it's another manufacturer (but it's quite costly). Alternatively get a small sachet of BS egg and cultivate them (a small sachet will last a long time as you'll only use a small amount everytime unless you've got a huge number of fry). But this requires you to spend 15 minutes harvesting and redo the cultivation with new egg and salt daily.

I use an eye dropper and squirt the BBS into the area where the fry is located, there's no need to use an air tube (and taste testing BBS).

Thomas.

fishgeek

Mon Jul 24, 2006, 07:09 AM

i never redo my salt waterwhen hatching brine shrimp
just top up the water as it evaporates and add more egg's to the same mix
as i only cultivate small amounts this seems to work fine for me

the smallest fronze food i have found(other then bbs) is cyclops, the others you mentioned are way to big

becareful with the liquid fry food it can be quite problematic with water quality

you can even just feed decapsulated brine shrimp egg's , though the movement of hatched ones is much more enticing to the the fry

if the young are in a large tank then natural fod may suffice

andrew

Mon Jul 24, 2006, 07:18 AM

Thanks Thomas & Fishgeek. Thomas I see you're from Sydney too. Is cyclops the more expensive brand you're thinking of. Do you know where in Sydney I can buy it. As I assume it will last quite a long time, I don't really mind if it's on the expensive side. To hatch my own, I'll need to buy the kit & an air pump, so thats a few dollars too & the frozen form would be convenient.

If I can't find the frozen BBS here in Sydney, I will try that hatching my own though. I can buy some live napauli, hopefully tomorrow, but I'm without a car today & it's out of my area, so today wasn't possible.

At least some are still alive tonight when I came home from work, so my fingers & toes are all crossed.

Th0mas

Mon Jul 24, 2006, 07:58 AM

Can't remember the brand - I paid around $90 for 1/2 kilo. of egg and I expect it to last a loooooong way given the pattern I'm using.

I tried not to change water, but ended up with really foul water and it does get messy when excess amount of shell are floating around on the surface.

To hatch, you'll need some rock sea salt (from supermarket), dechlorinated water is better (I use filtered water) and a air-pump with airline (no air-stone). There are plenty of information on the net and the most difficult part is to develop the most effective way to harvest (I'm still working on that myself). Egg will start to hatch from 24 hours and most will be hatched in 48 hours. Hence most people will run two hatchery and alternate between them to ensure a continuous supply daily.

If you don't have a car, you can order the egg online. One of the sponsor here sells them and you can have it sent over to your office.

For my hatchery, I just use a small pet bottle (juice/ice-tea/milk type), locate it next the tank (making sure there's enough light and warmth). Takes almost no time to setup.

Cheers,
Thomas.

hengeli

Mon Jul 24, 2006, 08:32 AM

To answer your question - the frozen bbs for your bit fries is available at most LFS. The brand that I use is POSAQUA and yes I think it will be fine for free swimmers.

Cheers!

Mon Jul 24, 2006, 12:15 PM

Thanks for all the helpful suggestions.

My camera is not really very good for these shots, but I have taken a few. She only has 5, which is about the same as last night - but I think the pencil fish are now more aware of the wigglers prescence, so we'll have to see how she goes as a first time mum.

Here are some shots - each time look for little white things on the wood, while mum hovers nearby.

Mon Jul 24, 2006, 12:16 PM

another shot

Mon Jul 24, 2006, 12:17 PM

last one

Robdog

Mon Jul 24, 2006, 12:57 PM

Th0mas

Mon Jul 24, 2006, 01:13 PM

To answer your question - the frozen bbs for your bit fries is available at most LFS. The brand that I use is POSAQUA and yes I think it will be fine for free swimmers.

Cheers!

Yeah - I've got that in the freeza as well (emergency food). It has a blue cover sheet.

Thomas.

Th0mas

Mon Jul 24, 2006, 01:21 PM

I've seen worse attempts at fry photography TW.(mine)
I used the Posaqua BBS for my fry and I've still got half the sheet of cubes left. I think they are about $8-9 for the frozen stuff.

All I did was melt off a little of each cube into some tank water then dump it in and the cube goes back in the freezer for the next feed.

Depending on the number, I've found one cube isn't enough for those hungry baenschi fry. They usually keep eating live BBS until their belly is fat and glowing bright orange (almost visible in dark).

Thomas.

Robdog

Mon Jul 24, 2006, 02:03 PM

I suppose I am only going on the fact that I had about 20 fry compared to your 100+

Th0mas

Mon Jul 24, 2006, 11:09 PM

Rob,

Don't mean that at all - adult fish will also benefit with the BBS so I feed them to all fish as well. If the fry can't finish them off, the adult will.

Thomas.

Mon Jul 24, 2006, 11:17 PM

I suppose I am only going on the fact that I had about 20 fry compared to your 100+ Well, I only have 5, so one cube will lost quite a while I would think.

Thanks for the brand name. Will try to track it down today.

Did a head count this morning & all 5 are still accounted for.

My female is quite an interesting character. If the male comes close (but not too close) she swims out to meet him, leaving her fry for a sec or two. She does her submissive pose thing (tilts to the side & shows him her belly). But if the male should come too too close for a look at his babies, he is then chased away with her trying to nip his tail. How confusing for the poor thing. Maybe, if she'd let him, he would help her with guarding after all.

This tank has turned from being a real worry a couple fo weeks back to something that is now so interesting to sit and watch.

Thanks for the advice.

Tue Jul 25, 2006, 12:12 AM

Having trouble tracking down frozen BBS, but LFS is suggesting that frozen rotifiers (spelling ???) is even smaller, as it is fed to BBS. Will this do. They can order BBS in, but I'd like to get some food for them today - will the rotifiers do just as well. They tell me it is plankton.

27.07.06 EDIT: I have the frozen BBS & feeding is working out now. She still has all 5. Fingers crossed.

Thanks.