PH for discus ?

[revkev]

Went to my local LFS at the weekend the subject came up about discus and ph they said discus these days are kept at a ph7 all the breeders are doing it???
Revkev

[Nathan]

yea ive heard that to, because there has been so much breeding over generations they have become adapt to higher ph, however if you were to have wilds they would most definitely die in ph as high 7.

HTH

[Phlipper]

Guess it also depends on the individual shop selling them, most I buy from try to maintain PH 6.8 to 7.0, and that's what I keep all my Discus and Angels in. Now and then my PH will rise to about 7.3 to 7.5, and I can always tell because my Discus seem to become quieter, not necessarily unwell, but more subdued. As soon as I lower the PH they perk up again.

[mistakes r crucial]

All the breeders aren't doing it or at least not the ones I know. Most of the breeders I socialise with, and especially long time breeders, keep their Ph around the mid 6's. Keeping breeders above 7, in my opinion, is asking for trouble, ammonia is far more toxic, bacteria thrive and although tank bred fish have become accustomed to a higher Ph it's not what they were built for.

I have been told of a breeder in Qld that purposely keeps his breeders in a Ph around the mid 4's. Although I wouldn't recommend doing this unless you really know what you're doing I am starting to agree that lower Ph values have considerable benefits with Discus. I now keep all my breeding pairs between 5 and 6 and have not had health issues for a very long time.
MAC

[Squid]

Yeah - my wild Heckels and stuff live quite happily at about pH of 4-5. Problem here is the water starts to get unstable and pH can vary a bit - but my wilds are all kept at pH around 6-7 and have no worries. The bit about them adapting/evolving to high pH is most likely BS. A pH of lower than 7 is optimal - and water hardness goes hand in hand (soft)

[ozarowana]

Agree with MAC, a lower pH has more health benefits to both adults and fry.

[Gump]

I talked to a personal retailer who had a school of 6 in 8.3-.4 for over a year before he finally sold them.

[Mulisha]

Do you guys think 5.0 - 5.5 rainwater and then after a week may buffer to 6.0 at the max would be ok for adult rt's :shock: ?

[Nathan]

I talked to a personal retailer who had a school of 6 in 8.3-.4 for over a year before he finally sold them.

thats unbelievable, are u sure?

[Phlipper]

That does sound high, but honestly so many of the breeders here in Adelaide breed them very succesfully in the same PH as is the tap water, that being around 7.5. When ever I mention about low PH's for Discus to the people that I buy my fish off, or some of the shops they generally just scoff, point at their fish and reply............there's proof ???

I maintain my tanks at around 6.8 constantly, mainly because of Co2 dosing and my pair lay a new batch of eggs almost every fortnight, and Adelaide is not know for its water softness or quality....... go figure ?

I also breed a hundreds of various Angels these days, which according to the books, and so called experts also require water conditions much the same as Discus....I have hundreds of living proofs that that is rubbish :idea:

I think the main key in success with general care and breeding is not so much a low PH, but to keep those parameters stable. To keep the PH low in Adelaide, at least in bare bottomed tanks is not possible without the constant use of PH lowering chemicals, which I believe in themselves create more trouble than they are worth.........keeping it simple is the way to go and lots of fresh water, my experiences anyway .

[Mulisha]

So Phil is a ph as low as 5.0 maybe 5.5 any good for discus?
I use rainwater and i add bi carb to rasie it and i think it flucates alot through w/c etc so i was thinking maybe just use what tap produces ..
I'm going to be adding some Coral Bone thanks to Proteus so this will rasie all 3 hopefully ph, kh and gh but i thin this will slow rasie them slowy so my tank will have a ph hope fully around 5.5 - 6.0 what do you guys think?

Cheers Rick

I hope i wasn't trying to steal this thread.. :oops: :oops:

[mcloughlin2]

I think the main key in success with general care and breeding is not so much a low PH, but to keep those parameters stable

I completely agree with you .. :P



use rainwater and i add bi carb to rasie it and i think it flucates alot through w/c etc so i was thinking maybe just use what tap produces ..

Sounds good to me just keep the ph stable @ about 6.8

[mcloughlin2]

So Phil is a ph as low as 5.0 maybe 5.5 any good for discus?


Yes it can be good for them but its best to keep it higher as its harder to keep stable when its low, and it makes quick water changes a sh*t as you have to make sure the pH is spot on or you could create unstabiltiy in the water ..

[Phlipper]

Sorry, I'm no expert on Discus, just a sound knowledge on most things fishy, and I cant see why a PH of that level would do any harm, and possibly it is beneficial, but in my experience not essential, that is all I am suggesting. I guess it may be more important with wild caught fish ?

Rain water is good to use as it is very soft, but even rainwater should have a PH around 7.0, ie : neutral. Rainwater as is however contains very little in the way of hardening and buffereing agents, virtually no minerals at all so it would be wise to add some calcium, carbonate minerals etc to buffer it and as a consequence raise the PH a bit. What Proteus suggests about using crushed coral is a great idea, my self I just use the readily available and cheap "Neutralising" blocks commonly sold in fish stores or the pet section of your local supermarket, these do the same thing. They dissolve slowly and buffer the water and realease beneficial minerals in the water for fish and good plant life.

My PH is relatively stable, varies slightly between 6.5 to 7.0, and this is mainly due to Co2 dosing and I dont get sudden crashes at all.

[Mulisha]

Cheers mate! 8-)

Thanks

[Phlipper]

So Phil is a ph as low as 5.0 maybe 5.5 any good for discus?


Yes it can be good for them but its best to keep it higher as its harder to keep stable when its low, and it makes quick water changes a sh*t as you have to make sure the pH is spot on or you could create unstabiltiy in the water ..

Exactly, that's another good point 8-)

[Mulisha]

Hmm sounds good can't wait to get some of that coral bone in my tank :lol: :lol:

And start trying lowering my ph from 7.2 down to 5.5 - 6.0 :shock:

Are there any good points with have a low ph?

The only good point i ever heard of having is Ammonia is turned into ammonium (spelling).
Is that the only good point or is there others .. i was think could pathgons live in such low ph :?

Thanks for ya help

Rick.

[Phlipper]

If you add something like coral bone then that will raise your PH and harden the water, this will assist in limiting the chances of PH crashes and the only way you will ever get a PH down to the level you want to achieve a PH of 5.5 to 6.0 is to keep on putting PH down chemicals in to lower it, especially with each water change......a continuous juggling act, and you would also have to weigh up the pro's and con's of dosing copious quantities of PH down chemicals like Sodium Bisulfate, which in turn will raise your phosphate levels..........what a hassle !!!

[Mulisha]

Hi Phil yeah i don't want to juggle water parm around so i have decided to wait for Proteus coral bone to arrive 8-) 8-)

Then just slowly lower my ph down with w/c and then add the coral bone.

That way i'll have should have a stable ph and kh using the coral bone.

Becuase having a ph of 5.5 from the tap isn't to good so hope this will help stablize it so it doesn't crash :o :o

This thread is very handy for those that want to know how to stablize water quality etc..

Thanks everyone :)

[Phlipper]

Wow !!! you have a PH of 5.5 straight from the tap, that's unbelievable, are you sure your test kit is accurate ? I'd be very surprised the water company allows a PH that low to get through, a PH that low will quickly corrode house pipes, taps and the water boards own piping system. Water companies always adjust their water to stop this sort of thing, otherwise could you imagine the damage to a cities water supply infrastructure :shock:

[mistakes r crucial]

He's on tank water Phil.

[*Chris*]

Mulisha is on rain water i believe

[Mulisha]

Yep on rain water/acid rain :oops:

So i think i'll try this coral bone that proteus is sending can't wait sounds like what i need 8-) 8-)

So Phil so you think 5.0 at the lowest my ph would go ever but always arouund the 5.5.

Would 5.5 ph cause burning of the slime coat or anything :shock: :shock:

I know one good point that ammonia is turned into ammonium (spelling) and used by my plants :wink:

Thanks guys

[mistakes r crucial]

5.5 wont burn your fish Rick. Just get it stable and then leave your water alone, don't mess with it, and get rid of those bloody plants lol!
MAC

[Mulisha]

ur jealous i can tell :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

8-)

[Phlipper]

:lol: :lol: bunch 'o' wallies :lol: :lol: sorry, still cant believe you water straight from the tap, or the rain water tank is 5.5 or lower, the acid rain in you area must be horrific..............are you peeing in the water tank ???

[Mulisha]

Mac asked the same thing thing if i was peeing in my water and the answer is "yes" :lol: :lol: :lol:

Jks

I can prove it !

[Phlipper]

:lol: Ok, so you're not peeing in the water, but according to your avatar, and in the words of the deceased actor "W.C. Fields" maybe lots of fish do have sex in your water .........drink more beer :lol:

The Hagen test kit should be accurate, so, wow, I am so amazed :shock:
Maybe it has something to do with the type of roof on your house or the kind of leaf litter in the gutters ???.....even rainwater should be neutral PH at 7.0 or close to it. Certainly sounds like you're a good candidate for coral bone or similar.

[Mulisha]

Nah mate rain water here is all 5.5

I can put a bucket outside and still get a ph of 5.5. The best thing is i don't live were there is alot of pollution and i have Millions of trees around us so the air is kinda clean. If there won't be any problem with keeping my my discus in 5.5 i should be fine becuase the coral bone will help stablize everything.

Also i was looking on the sera site and they Mineral salt at 5grams per 100L water sounds very good. Can this Sera Mineral salt be used in a planted or not?

Thanks 8-)

[Benny]

Hrmmmmmmmmm, Rick and his Revolting rainwater.

5.5 is pretty damn nasty in terms of rainwater pH. I would be keeping that monaro of yours undercover ;).

On another note though, rick is there any industrial activity in your area? Perhaps a coal powered electricity station? Because acid rain with that pH suggests your air is really filthy.

Normally rainwater falls at around about 6.8 due to carbon dioxide in our atmosphere dissolving causing dilute carbonic acid to be in the water. (much the same as CO2 injection into a tank dropping it's pH).

However 5.5 would suggest to me somethin far more serious.

If there is a power station in the area, it's probably dumping tonnes of sulfate pollutant gasses into the air. (SO2). When it mixes with our precious rain water (H2O) it creates H2SO4 (sulfuric acid) mixed in with the rainwater. Sulfuric acid, like Nitric acid and Hydrochloric acid are all strong acids, whereas carbonic acid is a weak acid.

A strong acid will cause acid rain with a pH of 5.6 or less.

So pollutants likely to be in your air would be either nitrates or sulfates (from my relatively uneducated guess)

Hope that explains something

Ben

[Merrilyn]

Thanks for that Benny.

It makes a lot of sense. :P

[*Chris*]

he could also have rotting leaves in his gutters causing the ph to go down
assuming his gutters is how it collects???
cheers
exAI

[Merrilyn]

I thought about that too Ex, but he said he can put a bucket out in the rain and catch water without if going near his roof, and it's still 5.5 :?

[*Chris*]

nice one
nothing like industrial strength acid rain
:lol:
ladyred if this is the case can these pollutants harm the fish longterm???

[Mulisha]

:( :( :( Do fish like acid i dam well hope so :lol: :lol:

Ask anyone like MAC or maybe Sarah they both live on the sinshine coast.

There are no industrial places around me and the air clean well it seems to be only thing we get out time to time is smoke from a fire.

Maybe it's leaves we do have a few leaves in our gutters if so what would this be adding to the water? Like i said my cousins are like another 15kms out of town and they have the same exact ph etc and they really wouldn't have any polloution there.

This may sound dumb but my rainwater going through leaves wouldn't this be lowering my ph a bit just like those leaves on AOA sell :shock:

I'll keep you posted on how i go i'll go have a look in the gutters now ... :oops: :oops: :oops:

Thanks everyone for your interest in my situation this will become handy to anyone with a problem like mine... :wink:

[*Chris*]

leaves are organic waste if there damp then they start to decay
so water running through decaying leaves creates natural acids
and inturn lowers ph
i think thats how it gos
:wink: :lol: :lol:

[Mulisha]

oh ok thanks ex it that organic material that is lowering my ph such as leaves etc going to cause any harmfull stuff to my fish?

Also i might try clean out the gutters and see if it does make a difference i really don't think it will but they do need a clean lol

My water out of the tap is also pure clear not a tinge of yellow. :P

Thanks again

[*Chris*]

thats could also be why your rain is that ph too rain is evaporated water so if it is sitting on leaf litter then the water vapour will be acidic too
i dont know if that is 100% true but is sounds about right
in turn your rain may be that ph
??????????????????????

[Mulisha]

yeah maybe i'll put a bucket out to catch some rain when we get some and see how i go ph wise if it's the same around the 5.5 mark well it looks like we have some acid rain if it's higher i'll clean my gutters out when i get a chance.
Maybe you Victorians that have rain everyday put a bucket outside for my sake and test ur ph see what it's like and maybe compare it.

If this organic leaves etc arn't dangerous to my fish i might leave it a low ph isn't always bad thought good bacteria can't grow as well. But then again a low ph has good beniefs doesn't it :shock: :shock: :?:

Thanks i think i need wild discus they would love my 5.5 ph hehe

cheers

[mistakes r crucial]

Irrelevant, please delete.

[Mulisha]

:lol: :lol:
good old Jet Set 8-)

[Phlipper]

Nah !!!............I still go on the theory that either Mulisha or some of his drunken mates are peeing in the water, maybe ya drink too much white wine, or maybe say no to pickles on the Hungry Jacks hamburger, too acidic mate :shock: :lol: :lol: :lol: 8-)

[Mulisha]

LOL @ Phil!

Hey Phil do you think if i was to do a w/c every weekend at Minnium when somtimes i have to go out or something like that but other then that i do w/c every 3 or 4 days do you think adding a low ph of 5.5 to a tank that has only coral bone in the tank to keep boosting the KH etc. As well as me injecting co2 into the tank @ 1 bubble per sec maybe 2 sometimes. Do you think i would get a ph carsh :shock: :shock: :shock: :?: :?:

I'm kinda want to keep my water stable and safe so it'd doesn't crash.

What do you think my chances are of a ph crash? Are ph crashes only from like 2 weeks without w/c and having no kh or is it alot less then that? :x

Thanks.!

Rick.

[Phlipper]

Hi Rick, PH crashes are not regular if they happen, a bit hard to predict when they occur, but Co2 will certainly increase the likelihood. I have never used Coral Bone to harden my water at all, and I have no idea how quickly it raises the KH of the water so I cant judge as to whether this is the answer. I think your biggest worry will be when you do water changes that the topping up water will no have no hardnesss at all and you may get an immediate imbalance ???

I haven't had a PH crash for ages now, at least no significant ones, and I've never had to deal with water as soft as yours, so not so sure I can give you the right advice. I think you need to ask Proteus about the coral bone and as to how effective it is and how fast it works.

[Mulisha]

Cheers Phil well last night it rained a tiny bit like 2mm so i quickly put a bucket outside and i tested the ph and it was 5.5 exact same as in my rain water tank.

I'll pm Rohan see how fast this coral bone works..

Thanks guys for your input.

[Phlipper]

Sorry couldn't be of any more help.............but I have another question that maybe someone can answer for me in regards to water hardening materials.

For those who have a Budgie, Canary, Parrot or the like, do you feed them Cuttlefish bone from time to time as is reccommended ? I believe it contains good quantities of calcium etc for strengthening the birds bones and beak sharpening etc.

So, my question is does anyone actually know the composition of Cuttlefish bones, and I'm wondering if it is safe and has the same effect on buffereing aquarium water such as does Coral Bone. It is always washed up in large quantities here on S.A. beaches and what a bonus if it was suitable for aqauria, combined with the good aspect that it crushes up easily into a fine powder form if need be. Be great if someone knew if it was suitable, or if someone knows how to find out it's mineral composition.

[*Chris*]

it is an excellant source of calcium to any bird BUT
calcium is highly recommended to be given to a hen while she is laying or is coming up to breed
in this case the calicum found in cuttlefish is no good
while a female bird is in breeding mode her body rejects this source of calcium and just sends it on its way(poos it out)
while a female(hen) is breeding a supliment such as calcivet
is recommended
you may be asking what has this got to do with fish????

so id assume the same applies for aquariums i dont think it is a suitable buffer or suplement as it is not strong enough to really do anything
and remember inverts would store any contaminants in there flesh or bones
so if they cam into contact with pollutants then it would most likely be stored in the cuttlefish
EXAI