Do I have worms? Pics attached.

[keinert]

Just bought this guy yesterday. He was being treated with Praizi at the store but owner said treatment was all done. Today I see the feces as shown in the pics. Any chance that this is NOT some type of worm or do I need to continue with meds? If so, do I still use Prazi-Pro?
Thanks, Kevin.

[sammigold]

I dont know if its a worm but it doesnt look right!
I am sure one of our experts on this forum will know...
good Luck!!

[G-1000]

Ok, well you can be sure that its a case of some type of worms there for sure.

I cant tell from the pic provided, but it doesnt look to be a tapeworm-type worm. As such, praziquantal wont work.

What I would recommend is to get levamisole and treat with that - there is an article about it on the illness and medications section.

G

[marg]

Never seen anything like it before - it sure does look yukky - seems to be a number of threads, not one long pooh, which makes you wonder if it isn't some type of worms.

I can't comment as I worm regularly and I haven't seen any type of worms with my Fish, so as Sammi says, wait for one of the experts.

Marg.

[keinert]

I'm wondering if these are dead worms left over from the store treatment that are somehow just coming out now? They have been hanging on for a few hours. I've added 50ml Epson Salt to this 100 gal tank in an attempt to clear his intestines a little.
Kevin.

[marg]

Well if there is a blockage the Epsom Salts will fix it.

Does anyone else have any opinion as to what is wrong?

Marg.

[keinert]

It it now 5 hours since the stings first appeared. At first, they were much thicker like they were covered with fecal matter. Now they are still hanging on but the fecal matter has fallen off and what remains is several "hair thin" threads.

Kevin.

[sammigold]

It could be worth treating him with Levamisole as that attacks different kind of worms to Prazi...
Where are you situated.? If in America I think aquariums have meds with that in it.... if in Australia you will probably need to buy a product called "Big L" Pig and Poultry wormer...
there is a thread in this forum called "Levamisole" have a look at it... it might help...:-)

[marg]

I agree with you Sammi -I'd try Levamisole before I tried anything too drastic.

Sure looks weird to me - wonder what Ladyred or Proteus thinks? HELP Guys??? What do you think this is?

Marg.

[wind54]

gday
im having the exact same problem as well from my new chrystals i just bought... are your stringy faeces white in colour as mine are and it doesnt look right?

regards

[keinert]

It's now 24 hrs later and the threads are still hanging on. They are brown in color and very very thin (like a human hair). Where can I get Levamisole? Can I get it in powder form to mix with my beefheart?

[sammigold]

Where are you situated? It will be easier for forum members to direct you to a store, or online site if they know where you are...
For eg. I am in Preston, Melbourne, australia and I have a bottle of Big L of which I would be happy to give you some if you were nearby... or I could tell you that you can get it at the Thornbury Pet supply and they will order it in for you and that it costs around $14.50 Ausdlrs... HTH

[keinert]

Hello, Sorry about that,
I'm in California, USA.
But thanks for the offer, that's very kind.

Kevin.

[sammigold]

Kevin, I think that in America you can find a product at your LFS that has levamisole in it... I am not sure what it was called though... sorry... maybe someone from the states will be able to help you with that... Good Luck!

Wind54.... I would post a photo of your fish in a separate link as you may be looking at something like Hex if your fish has white poo... try posting details of water parameters, photo, is fish eating, is its colour different ie. dark.... maybe someone will be able to help... HTH

[k9outfit]

Try finding a "Jungle" brand product keinert; seems to me that one contains Levamisole - recall seeing a post to that effect. Noone carries it around where I am though, so I can't confirm.

[Merrilyn]

This looks very much like a case of threadworm. Nasty little worms that can cause a lot of damage to the gut and intestine of fish.

You need a product called levamisole which will remove all nematodes. Prazi only targets tapeworm, and is not suitable for removing threadworm.

In the States, you may need to get it from your vet if you can't find it at your local pet store.

[gbberg]

Kevin, here are digital photos taken of the eggs we found on fecal smear.

Gerrit

[keinert]

To everyone in this forum,
The egg in the picture above is Capillaria (I think). The picture above is a slide mount that is over a day old and dried up somewhat. However, when fresh, it looked exactly like the picture on pg. 366 of Discus Health by Dieter Untergasser.

Also, just to clarify: The fish that this Capillaria egg came from IS NOT the same Discus pictured at the very start of this topic. I believe that I am fighting two separate types of worms in these two fish. The stool sample that this egg was in was more clear, not very long, and did not hang from the anus for days (as was the case with the fish at the start of this thread).

Thanks again,
Kevin.

[samir]

thats a threadworm egg , if you cant find levimasole , piperazine will eradicate it. its very important to retreat in 14 days.

[keinert]

Hello, how can you be sure?
These are two different fish from two different stores (and cities). They have only been together in my tank since Thursday night.

Thanks, Kevin.

[keinert]

So I did a "google image" search on "threadworm egg". The pics I found of threadworm eggs looks the same, but my eggs did not have such a pronounced "cork" or "cap" shape on the ends. Still, it could be threadworm. I have Levamisole on order from American Vet Supply.
Kevin.

[samir]

Capillaria have a thick egg shell(looks like one egg packed in another), though i might be wrong because they do look a lot similar. in any case levimasole should take care of both, just look up the life cycle and give a second dose accordingly.

[keinert]

Can anyone confirm or refute my research? Two articles that I have found say to treat the tank at 2ppm. Add the Levamisole to the tank once each week and repeat this treatment for three weeks.

I calculate that 2ppm would be 750mg of pure Levamisole powder placed in my 100gal. aquarium.

Any comments? Thanks, Kevin.

[keinert]

Things are grim this morning. I added 10 Discus (2" size) to my 100 gal tank 7 days ago. This morning, 4 out of 10 Discus of those Discus are flicking against tank objects, rapid breathing and darting wildly around the tank. They will dash madly across the tank, then go completely paralyzed for 5 to 10 seconds like they just died. No breathing, no movement, nothing. Then, after 10 or 15 seconds they will slowly start to breath and move again. I have lost dozens of Discus in this way over the last year. Ammonia and Nite's are ZERO.

I have 2 Discus that remain from a batch I bought 6 months ago. They are still alive and do not show the rapid breathing/darting symptoms so far this morning. I have increased the Levamisole to 2.25grams total in my 100 gal tank.

Any thoughts? Kevin.

[G-1000]

Kevin - Make a big water change to remove the levamisole from the water. You have a case of gill flukes judging by those symptoms which needs to be fixed first.

You need aquamaster gill flukes and tapeworm tablets which contain 100mg praziquantel each. If you cant find those brand of tablets then get your hands on praziquantel pure form and does accordingly.

You need the prazi ASAP mate - all the best.

[keinert]

Two discus have died, I have them in the refrigerator. Please post a few link to websites that show gill fluke pictures. I have a 400x microscope and I can check the fish if I know what to look for and where. I need to positively determine what disease these fish have.
Thanks, Kevin.

[keinert]

Seven Discus have died and my last five are darting wildly, smashing into everything and rapid breathing.

THIS SUCKS! DISCUS SUCK!

When these last five die, I will drain the tank and plant tumble weeds. They should be fun to look at.....

[marg]

Keinart,

Did you do the water change and add the Prazi?

Marg.

[keinert]

No, I looked for gill flukes on a dead fish at 300x. Could not find any. Gill filaments looked healthy. All fish still use both gills. I have been treating with Metro and Dimetridazole.

[marg]

I would still be doing a water change.

[samir]

you need to do the 50% waterchange ASAP. how much levimasole did you put in the water. do a 50% waterchange every 12 hours till the fish get better. also filter your tank with activated charcoal.you need to start changing water NOW !!!!! if you had listened to G in the first place and done a big water change you would have probably saved the lot. sometimes its better to listen to someone who has experience than trying to reinvent the wheel. Discus going crazy = something wrong with the water = CHANGE THE WATER.

[keinert]

I have done 80% water changes every time I switched meds and every other day while on meds. I'm beginning to think that it's something wrong with the tank itself. I have a 10 gal tank with four Discus fry (about 1" size) and they are fine. Had them for over a month now. I have used a lot of silicone glue in the big tank. It's not the "aquarium safe" stuff from the pet store but it's also not the "kitchen & bath" stuff. It is labeled 100% silicone. The 100 gal tank is down to 3 Discus, a Ram and a Black Ghost. I've had the Ghost for 6+ months and he's still alive though all this. Could silicone poisoning have an immediate effect on Discus but not on other fish (like the Ghost). I occasionally see the Ghost rubbing, but very infrequently. The tank has had regular water changes, I'm still on Metro and Dimetridazole. I will decide when I get home if should switch to Prazi. That is if there is anything left alive....

[marg]

Keinart,

If you have done nothing else out of the ordinary other than to use "a lot of silicone glue in the big tank. It's not the "aquarium safe" stuff from the pet store but it's also not the "kitchen & bath" stuff. It is labeled 100% silicone" then that could be your problem. it is most likely sending irritants into the water. They are probaably dying of some sort of toxic poisoning. :banghead .

Why on earth did you use something other that Aquarium Safe Silicone, and what were you glueing in the Aquarium?

My guess is you had better change tanks, and Quickly!!! God knows what damage you have done - all the dead fish should tell you that :roll: :roll: .

Sorry to sound so rough, but the thought of using anything that could be unsafe for the fish blows my mind. Discus are pretty hardy but you really have to think about what you are putting in their tank.

As to what else you can do to help the remaining ones maybe one of the more experienced forum members can help - maybe some salt (and not table salt) to de stress them :ug ,

Marg.

[keinert]

Hi Marg,
The tank has been fine for over 5 years! My problems started one year ago when I switched to Discus. I know positively that I have had Hex and other diseases over the last year. I have gotten past those, but maybe I did not treat for long enough and a few bugs have held on. I know that I never "retreated" a week or two later as (I now know) you should. The fish have all lasted for varrying lengths of time, but the Discus never last longer than three or four months. This last batch of 10 were all healthy one week ago when I bought them. Now, 9 days later, they are all dead and my few remaining Discus (which I have had for four months) are sick. I'm doing an 85% water change now and switching to Prazi-Pro for the next few days.

[keinert]

BTW: The silicone was used five years ago to glue down air line tubing to the bottom of the tank. More was used recently to glue gravel to the bottom of my plastic plants so they would not float when I removed all other gravel and switched to a bare bottom tank.

[marg]

Keinart,

From what you are describing I would say that there is most definitely a water problem.

What is your local Fish Shop like -perhaps they have some suggestions?

Seeing as you don't have many Fish left, I'd put them into a smaller tank to treat them and just use a corner filter.

I am not experienced enough to give you any other advice. If no-one else on the Forum answers you shortly I would contact one of the Fish Vets mentioned in the Forum (just do a search titled "Fish Friendly Vets" - you need to do something, and quickly. Don't go loading medications into the tank when you don't really know what the problem is, or you'll lose them for sure.

When I was talking about using the Salt I meant for the Discus, not the Knife Fish (Being scaleless, Salt will kill him).

By the way, when you mentioned the Silicone I was under the impression that you had used it recently.

Marg.

[marg]

Kevin,

I have just been reading right through your Posts trying to find a clue, and think I have found it - you make no mention of Quarantining your Fish - and from what I understand they come from a few different sources - if you haven't Quarantined you Fish then you have most likely introduced some type of nasties. Can't stress how important it is to Quarantine Fish before you add them to your tank.

Contact a Fish Vet for advice would be my next move.

Marg.

[samir]

you should not be changing more than 50% of the water at a time, its definitely not the silicone. try filtering with activated charcoal, take your tank and source water to be tested. also what was the ph in your tank before and after a 80% water change ?

[marg]

I agree Samir, it's not the Silicone seeing as it has been there for 5 years.

Your suggestion regarding having the water tested is a good idea - maybe that will tell us something.

Marg.

[keinert]

The PH is kept precisely at 6.9 all the time by means of an electronic PH meter and a dosing pump that dispenses Seachem liquid Acid Buffer. I'm an engineer, I designed this system. My tap water is 7.8 which is constantly pulling the tank PH up. When it hits 7.0, acid is dispensed in the area of the filter return (for quick mixing) in the amount of 1/2ml and at a rate of one dispense cycle every 4 minutes. This continues until the PH drops back to 6.9 which usually takes 2 or 3 dispense cycles. The attached pic shows this setup on my hospital tank. Same thing is on my big tank. I also have a completely automated water change system. It changes 1/4 of the tank, three times per week. All pipes run underground in conduits I laid before the house was built.

I've done the same massive water changes on my hospital tank with the same tap water. No problems with my four small Discus in that tank. They are growing and eating like pigs.

I have contacted every vet in my area, none have an interest in fish or will give me any advise OR PRESCRIPTIONS. I've been all on my own to find medicines like piperazine and levamisole. In both cases, I think that I blew it, because they both turned out to have Lactose in them. Everyone says "make sure it doesn't have sucrose or dextrose", but I believe that Lactose also causes bacteria outbreaks. Both times I used it, I had planaria outbreaks within a few days. I have found one vet who is willing to help but he is not a fish specialist. He is trying to contact fellow DVM's that might be able to give suggestions.

Hi Marg, you are absolutely correct in your latest assessment. The big Discus at the very start of this post (with the long worms hanging) was added to the tank on 6/15/06, the same day that the new batch of 10 medium size Discus were added. The big guy and batch of 10 came from different stores. The big guy developed the "worm hang" on the very next day and the eggs that are shown a few posts later were coming from one of the other Discus (in the batch of 10 fish) only a day later. I need to slow down, watch my remaining fish for 2 or 3 months and then ONLY add fish that have spent the proper time in the quarantine tank.

[Bill T.]

Sorry to hear about all the trouble with your fish, and yes when discus fish die it sucks! I've had a couple of disasters & total wipeouts, but thankfully things have settled down & I have have had healthy happy fish for two years.

I follow the "kiss" principle these days. I run two canister filters (one each end of my tank) with an external heater and a UV system. With water changes, I always age the water in a plastic barrel, treat with aquatan (dechlorinator) & get the pH & temperature the same as my tank before pumping into the tank. (My pH sits at a little over 7.0, by the way - no problem!)
I assume you clean any substrate by siphoning when you do your water changes?
I have scorched too many fish by changing pH too rapidly, by the way - so I wonder if your pH system might be a bit out of whack?

If I want to change my procedures, I change only one thing at a time, so I have a better chance of judging the effect of my tinkering.

Diseased fish are a definite curse. I've had some serious problems bought into otherwise healthy fish by sick fish that I have enthusiaticaly but foolishly acquired - and dumped straight into my tank without quarantine.

After one such episode, I ended up sterlising EVERYTHING and starting again.

So here is my suggestion:
Don't let anything move from your problem tank to the tank with those healthy fish. This includes nets, hands, fish, plants - nothing at all!

Set up a quarantine system for all the fish in your problem tank, put the fish in there, and then completely sterilise your problem tank & all associated equipment. (I use household bleach & water to sterlise).

Start again with your sterlised tank. Put in the substrate (if you use any) and whatever decorative objects you chose.

Fill up with fresh, clean water. Treat with a dechlorinator & get the pH set to about 6.8. Heat up the tank, put in your plants.
If you are really sure those fish in your hospital tank are healthy, harvest some filter medium from that tank to start up your cleaned tank.

Next you could transfer two of your healthy fish to the clean tank (leave that pH adjuster turned off for a while) and nurse them for a couple of weeks - daily ammonium, nitrite & pH readings.

If you do have ammonium or nitrite, manage this by daily water changes. Be sure to age and treat your water before pumping it into your tank. Use something like cycle or nitrivec to help with the biological filter.

After a couple of weeks with no trouble, move your remaining healthy fish over.

(By this time, I think nature will have dealt with those unwell fish, so you could sterlise everything that you used on them.)

Now you know about building up your stock:
Buy from a reputable source.
Quarantine & treat for flukes and intestinal parasites whilst in quarantine.
Never buy unhappy looking fish from anyone!
Slowly add new fish to your main tank so the biological filter can handle it.


Now here is a suggestion - but don't take any risks.
I wrote to waterlife in the UK & they posted me some Octozin. This worked amazingly well in eradicating intestinal worms and parasites. They might do the same for you? Don't know about customs regulations, however.

Invest in a good UV system if you don't already have one.

Be patient and careful about what you put into your tank - I think you will find things settle down.

[samir]

where exactly are you located ? maybe i could find a fish friendly vet for you.

[keinert]

Thanks Bill T,
I have already done most of your suggestions. I have UV and no gravel. I vacuum regularly. There is nothing wrong with my PH system. I calibrate it for accuracy every 6 months.

Hi Samir,
I'm in Santa Maria, California. There are no fish vets. I've already tried.

Interesting development:
Yesterday at 3:00pm I did the 85% water change and switched to Prazi-Pro. By 11:00pm last night, my three remaining Discus looked fine again. Swimming aroung the tank, breathing normal, fins fully extended. This morning at they are back to hiding with fins retracted. It's like the massive water change is good but then something is reinfecting the tank. I'm going to remove everything and do another water change. My filters are fine, I change the cloth filter regularly. The bio media gets rinsed in tank water. I'm leaving tonight for an over night trip, will post more when I return.

Kevin.

[marg]

Kevin,

It definitely seems to be a water problem!!

What other things apart from Heater and Filter are in your tank?

Sounds like you may have to completely strip down your tank and clean it with some household bleach (scrubbing the heater and everything else that goes into the tank) and start from scratch. Something is harbouring nasties for sure. Something in the tank seems to be causing the problem.

As well as Quarantining, whenever I add anything to my Tanks just to be safe I always clean with Bleach first (on my breeding Tank that means corner Filters, heaters and Spawning Tiles). I have just purchased a 6 foot tank and yesterday spent all afternoon scrubbing it out with a non scratch pad and a household bleach solution. Rinsed heaps of times then left it to dry overnight. Did the same with the Filter casing and purchased new media for it.

I'd give that a try and see how it goes. Just seems that way to me - if you have done a large water change and they were fine, then overnight back to the same problem.

I can understand your frustration when you say you're fed up, but it's not the Discus, it's their tank I think. You must have introduced something into the tank when you skipped the Quarantine bit.

While you are doing that keep the Discus in a Hospital tank (scrubbed with Bleach solution and rinsed clean prior to filling) and monitor them - it will make it cheaper if you need to medicate them - maybe keep up the Prazi Pro treatment seeing as how the Clean Water and the Prazi pro seemed to pick them up.

As I've said before I'm by no means an expert but I have learnt that Quarantining and Sterilizing has saved me a lot of problems. better to be sure than sorry.

Good luck and let me know how you go :D :D .

Marg.

[Bill T.]

Where did you get the non scratch pad from? If not from the lfs, then it could possibly contain chemicals from the manufacture process?

[marg]

Bill,

It is just one of the common old "el cheapo" ones from Woolies - the green ones you use for Teflon coated pans.

I give it a soak in a bleach solution then rinse rinse rinse!!.

I have been using them for 4 years and have never had a problem with them. All my Fish are healthy and thriving.

Marg.