Planning first Discus Tank, advice wanted

[danielb]

Hello,

I currently have two small community tanks (60 & 65 litres) and I'm thinking of upgrading to one bigger tank and trying discus. I've read everything I could find online and in books but I'd like your advice on my current planned set-up. The tank I'm looking at buying is the Juwel Rio 180 (http://www.juwel-aquarium.de/en/rio.htm?cat=5) which is a 180 litre tank that comes complete with built in heater, lighting and filteration. It would be a fully planted low tech tank using the techniques from "Ecology of the Planted Aquarium" (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0967377315/qid=1149847419/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/202-9186949-8048621) by Diana L. Walstad.

So far I think I need to get:
Juwel Rio 180 Aquarium & cabinet,
Light Reflectors,
Extra Heater (split the load over two units rather than one),
3 Stage RO Unit (http://www.ro-man.com/shop/product_info.php/cPath/22/products_id/30?osCsid=c29e2a0fd90abfaeb6c1e2d90df66647),
Background,
Filter Bags,
Peat for Filter,
Extra Filter Media (for an eheim canister filter to augment whats in the internal filter).

I'm thinking of stocking the tank with the following:
4 Discus (Symphysodon aequifasciatus) - 6" x 4 = 24"
2 Bristlenose Catfish (Ancistrus temmincki) - 4" x 2 = 8"
1 Simese Fighting Fish (Betta Splendens) - 3" x 1 = 3"
2 Zebra Loach (Botia striata) - 3" x 2 = 6"
2 Bronze Corys (Corydoras aeneus) - 2"x 2 = 4"
3 Amano Shrimp (Caridina japonica)- 1.5" x 3 = 4.5"
Total: 49.5"

=== Possible Extra fish ===
1 Siamese Algae Eater (Crossocheilus siamensis) - 6" x 1 = 6"
2 Bolivian Rams (Microgeophagus altispinosa) - 3" x 2 = 6"
2 Honey Gourami (Colisa chuna) - 3" x 2 = 6"
6-12 Endlers Livebearers (Poecilia wingei) - 1" x 12 = 12"

=== Possible Dither Fish (will only have one shoal) ===
12 Rummynose Tetras (Hemigrammus bleheri) - 2" x 12 = 24"
12 Cardinal Tetras (Paracheirodon axelrodi) - 2" x 12 = 24"
12 Glowlight Tetras (Hemigrammus erythrozonus) - 2" x 12 = 24"

I'd quite like to have the Rams, SAE and Gouramis too but I'm not sure if thats too many fish for a 180L. Then endlers I'm not sure if they will just be a fast moving protein snack for discus or not. Does anyone know if you have to take shrimp into account when attempting to estimate filter loads and stocking levels?

Cheers,

Daniel

[sammigold]

sorry, dont know about the shrimp...

In regard to adding extra fish that may overload tank, I suppose if you are willing to do extra w/c then you can keep your tank "loaded" you will just have to be very aware of the possible issues that can occur...

I would start off slowly and add to my stock slowly but remember to quarantine any new additions if possible as you dont want your precious fish to be struck down by possible diseases bought in by new fish...

Good luck it sounds like you have researched and thought things through very carefully...

[Bill T.]

I would defintiley go for a U.V. steriliser. Greatly reduces bacterial load.

[RichVic]

Hello daniel,
as a Discus newbie myself (started Feb06) I'm like to share some of my initial mistakes. It was my first aquarium (6x2x2 - 650Lt) and I did a fair bit of impulse buying which ended in disaster (deaths/illness too many prob's to mention individually here.) I was stocked at about 20% capacity
initially and still had problems. If like me, you're keen on Discus, then remember that they will not compete for food (except amongst selves) and a tank full of others will often deprive them of a decent feed. They may survive, they won't "flourish" with health, colour or growth. My main Lesson learnt - Choose who's home it is, primarily and add only others who belong in the same water conditions OR perform a job for the primary species. EG. Glowlights and rummynose who prefer water, I think its 21 -25 degrees would not be my choice for a dedicated discus tank, running at 28+ all the time. If the tetra's get a bit off colour from the high temp. they'll put disease into the tank. Also the catfish/pleco type species- I'd keep to one pair. In fact I ended up taking all of ours out. They were either running around like lunatics kicking up bits of gravel while the discus tried to eat or beating the discus to the food! Not to mention the sleep derivation by going all night! I've also observed that since I moved the Discus to their own tank (only Cardinal tetra's x20 and a pair of flying foxes for the algae) they have never looked better. Discus are not comfortable with too much happening all the time and nowhere to retreat to. Additionally, the first few discus I purchased have all been stunted by their stint in the original community tank, the 2 newer additions have double in size (6weeks) and have better colour and the last purchases are growing the best of all. I know by experience that if you don't stress the discus, they don't get sick at all - I think their immune system is tied to their stress levels. I'm not culling any, as i think I can make up for the earlier mistakes which resulted in them having a bad home they could not escape for around the first 8 weeks.
Finally, I'd suggest you not buy 6" size, apart from costing a lot more that 6cm ones, they'll have got used to their lifestyle & find the changes too dramatic. Dunno, but juvenilles will adjust better, I suspect, to the routine, & conditions you introduce them into during a time when they're learning a lot anyway eg pecking orders etc. And I'm getting a lot of enjoyment from watching them grow, and develop a personality. If I were starting today, iI'd wait till I found a favourite strain, buy say 6-8, and let them grow and pair off together over the next year or so. I've gone for one of this and two of that (impulse) and now I regret it a bit because I don't want to breed up mudbloods (as they say in Harry Potter books)

Anyway good luck with it all - above all ENJOY your fish
HTH Vicki

[danielb]

Thanks for all the feedback so far, keep it coming please :) Sorry about the confustion regarding me putting lengths beside the fish, I was just trying to work out maximum size of the fish to use the rough rule of thumb stocking equations. So I'd not be buying the 6" discus!

How about if I was to aim for the following fish in the tank, they'd be built up over time:
4 Discus (Symphysodon Aequifasciatus)
2 Bolivian Rams (Microgeophagus Altispinosa)
12 Cardinal Tetras (Paracheirodon Axelrodi)
2 Bristlenose Catfish (Ancistrus Temmincki)
1 Simese Fighting Fish (Betta Splendens)
2 Zebra Loach (Botia Striata)
2 Bronze Corys (Corydoras Aeneus)
3 Amano Shrimp (Caridina Japonica)

I already own all the fish on the list bar the discus, cardinals and rams (which I've owned before and really like) and they are all favorites of mine that I'd quite like to keep (I'm getting rid of my other two tanks to just have this new bigger one). Is four discus too few for them to feel happy? I've never had fish this size before so I'm nervous about putting so many in the one tank! Are a shoal of dither fish required in a discus tank, I can't seem to find a definitive answer.

As for C02 I was going to transfer my current CO2 system (http://www.store.livingseas.co.uk/index.asp?function=DISPLAYPRODUCT&productid=1591) from one of my existing tanks to the new one, as I can't afford an automated high tech C02 system.

[Brilliant]

I wouldnt mix Cories and Loaches with Rams. I would tell you to get a larger tank for Discus. That Rio 300 or 400 looks better for Discus.

I have a school of 30+ Cardinal tetras. I dont see any difference in the behavior of the fish. The only thing that helped my Discus feel comfortable was more Discus.

[Nathan]

im not 100%sure cories would do well in 30 degree water, but the loaches are fine with rams, ive kept rams for years and have had loaches with them many times with no problems.

if you really can justify or really really want cardinals and want to spend a considerable ammount more then just buy the cardinals, but the neons tetras also do really quite well in those water specs. i have a school of 40 neons in my discus tank.

as sammigold said, you should be only adding stock slowly, so id say max 5 fish each week. But make sure your tank is fully cycled first before adding the discus as they will be your more expehnsive fish.

I agree with bill t i would definitely be looking into a uv sterliser, you can get a uv sterliser for your sized tank for about $150AUS which is a wise investment as they help kill nasties an also helps with algea blooms.

RichVic is very right with the impulse buying, i have done that myself and it causes many problems and not mention you spend a lot more money then was nessacery, so make sure your happy with what your buying as you will (hopefully) be seeing it everyday for years to come.

The size of the discus you are buying are fine, and they will adjust to their new envirnment in a week or so, so dont worry to much about that. Also if you are new to discus the bigger they usually the stronger they an also if they are small, youl have to more feedings and more water changes to ensure that their growth doesnt get stunted.

HTH

and if anyone disagres with what i say please correct me

[rytis]

advice wanted
number one advice: chose carefuly fish and do not over crowd: for a small 100-200 liter tank i would not go more then a pair of discus and a pleco. remember there were only two people on earth at first, the god got greedy and that's when the problems started :lol: (you are god to your fish)

number two advice: live plants for added filtration. research about plants first, most need bright lights, some need co2.

[Nathan]

you can have a lot more then a pair of discus an a pleco, thats why we have such good filters been designed these days so we dont have to look at the same 3 fish every single day because someone is over cautious.

the ammount of fish you have named is fine as long as you do probly at least 2-3 30% water changes a week.

theres no point in getting a bigger tank if your not goin to put more fish in it then your little 50l tank.

Also the more discus you have the more comfortable theyl be but no more 4 discus in that size tank

HTH

[goldenpigeon]

for a small 100-200 liter tank i would not go more then a pair of discus and a pleco.

ummm 1 ADULT discus per 40L! your tank is easily sustainable using this rule!

if you are smart you will invest in filtration that is better than your el-cheapo undergravel filter. for a small amount of money you could deck out a 100-200L tank with excellent filtration! ever wonder why some of the eheims etc cost so much? its because they are made to sustain tanks with large bio loads!

if your filter is cycled poperly you wont have a problem with a larger fish load!

keeping your discus in a planted tank is good HOWEVER this isnt the only way to keep discus. if you want the best growth and health results go for a bare bottom tank. much easier to clean and maintain and also not even a quarter of the price of a properly set up planted tank.

[rytis]

true, barebottom tank is easier to keep clean, but planted tank with low fish load you can leave unnatended much longer? and is much more interesting to look at... and more interesting to look at a pair at peace then 4-5 chasing each other... i know this is a discus site, and ok, maybe my discus arent fat and big, but... just my opinion.....

[Nathan]

im with you GP, thats exactly why these filters have been designed for larger bioloads, how boring is it to look at just a few fish eachday lazing around?

just because you have more discus doesnt necessarily mean there will be more fighting.

[samir]

seems like an awful lot of fish for a 180 litre. you will need to do IMO at least 2-3 50% water changes a week and thats going to be pretty hard in a heavily planted tank. as your discus are probably already at max size you dont really need bare bottom. i would suggest keeping less fish or getting at least a 300-500 litre if you want to do less frequent water changes. i use about 470 litres for 14 discus from 10 -14 cm and 3 corys, with 2 50% wc's per week in bare tanks. you also might want to keep your temperature at 28-30 degrees C (depends on whom you ask) so only keep fish and plants that are used to that temperature. it would be better if you start with less and slowly add more fish if your setup and water change schedule, can handle it . if an expensive eheim is over the budget, you could add a cheap top filter, they work really good.

[goldenpigeon]

in my experience the more discus you have the more peaceful they are. if you have 2 or 3 there will be constant problems unless they are a pair.

its a lot harder for 1 fish to round up 6 fish than it is for 1 fish to round up 1 or 2.

PLANTED TANK:
. pleasant to look at
. natural look
. more relaxing to look at
. harder to cleap clean and fish dont grow as large
. if you do it properly its quite expensive to set up but if done so you will be rewarded with nice plants.

*remember discus dont live in densly planted areas. they come from places where trees and branches have fallen*

BARE BOTTOM TANK:
. fish grow to full potential much faster too
. very easy to keep clean and maintanence is much faster too!
. can use more simple filtration because debris doesnt get trapped behind rocks, wood and plants.
. can have a higher fish load because of easy maintanence
. much cheaper and easier to set up

*if you have a creative touch it is very easy to make a bare bottom tank look nice - driftwood with anubias on it for example*


the more fish you have the more lively and boistrous the group will be. keeping in mind a responsible amount of fish for your tank.

basicaly its up to the aquarists taste. i myself have both and the difference is there as to which performs better in terms of fish.... but if you like plants then go for it.

[nicholas76]

aah one more thing GP!


You give a Discus somthing to hide behind and it WILL!

Bare bottom tanks are great as they cant hide from you hehe

[goldenpigeon]

lol yes i forgot that one Nick...

lol you make bare bottom sound like a prison hehehe "they cant hide fomr you hehe" :lol:

[mcloughlin2]

Some very good posts here guys... :wink: :P

I might even read through them all when i can be bothered... :lol:

[danielb]

Thanks for all the excellant feedback.

I went to talk to my local fish store (http://www.uda.co.uk) (who are a discus dealer) at the weekend. They advised me that a fighting fish was a bad idea with discus as it would be bullied, also that an odd number of discus is better than an even one as there is less in fighting and that I don't need so many dither fish. So my current stocking list looks more like this:
5 Discus (Symphysodon Aequifasciatus)
2 Bolivian Rams (Microgeophagus Altispinosa)
2 Bristlenose Plecs (Ancistrus Temmincki)
2 Zebra Loach (Botia Striata)
2 Bronze Corys (Corydoras Aeneus)

For dither fish I will have one shoal but not sure which of the following to chose:
8 Rummynose Tetra (Hemigrammus bleheri)
8 Cardinal Tetras (Paracheirodon Axelrodi)
8 Black Widow Tetras (Gymnocorymbus Ternetzi)
Rummynose are meant to produce the best shoal in groups of that size. I like the lack of colour of the Rummynose and black widows as the discus are meant to be the main feature of the tank.

As to getting an external filter, the filter on this tank is pretty big with a decent volume of media, I'm plannying on adding some eheim filter media in a filter bag to supplement whats already in the filter. The reason I'm not going external is that I can't afford it right now and the eheim external filter I currently own (which runs one of my smaller tanks) is only good for tanks up to 100l.

A bigger tank would be nice but I can't really afford that right now either and I could not get a much bigger tank without having to first get a bigger house as my living room is not big enough for a 300L tank! Basically I'm space and cash limited at the moment :(

Oh and when I said Bristlenose Catfish I meant the 4" plec not the monster sized ones!

[Brilliant]

When you move at least you will have a nice tank to put all of your "other fish" into when your "hooked" on Discus :)