Sydney water quality is getting worse

[Mattzilla]

is it just me or is sydney water pretty ordinary at the moment???

i don't test water for much but i just know by the way my fish are acting that the water worsening in quality.

i bought my fiance some flowers a few days ago (yeah i know i'm a softy) and when i put them in a vase with water, they died within 24hrs! now tell me my tap water is up to scratch! i know proteus has had trouble with his water of late....what about anyone else in sydney??

matt

[Proteus]

well after having an entire tank almost wiped out due to the water, I would say there is a huge problem.

Apparently they are adding a lot more chemicals to the water to make it safe for us, as the water table gets lower, but sadly this isnt good for fish.

After speaking to a few stores, and one of the sponsors here, they are all recommending double or triple dosing with water treatments (ager, dechlor, etc)...

All the water I use now goes through a filter at the tap (very slow) then aged for a minimum of 24-48hrs with extreme aeration (200L aging container) and double dosed with water ager and chelating agents.

From the observations I have made from all the fish I have lost (9 x Clown Loaches, 3-4 Chinese Algae Eaters, and lots of livebearers) it seems that they have died due to Heavy Metal Poisoning or some other toxin.

also, as heard from several people, they are noting the water is greener than ever and as for the pH fluctuations, well, that has me baffled. To go from 7.83 out of the tap, to as low as 4.2 in 1-2 days is unheard of.

I am testing Nitrites, Nitrates, Ammonia & pH every second day, and apart from pH swings, the others dont register...

:roll:

[Mattzilla]

i think i'll take your advice and double my dechlor/ager and i think i'll stick a bag of activated carbon in my water storage tank until our water gets a little more reliable

[Proteus]

Carbon is a great idea (sorry i forgot to mention, I am putting a new bag in my community tank overflow every couple of days)

In desperation I have also placed a UV sterilizer unit rated for a 10,000L pond/tank on the 180g/750L community tank.

[flukes]

Proteus, just intrested in the tap filter your using, wouldnt mind getting one. Although our water hasn't reached that stage yet iam sure will should see a similar thing happen to our water.
Just wondering where you got it and how it works? Carbon filter? or something else like a particle filter??

Any info would be great.
Cheers
Scott

[Proteus]

Scott, I will advise on the brand later (not Brita)... but it is readily available at most department stores, it is a small cartridge that slots into an enclosure, it has a switch to activate it, so you can still run the tap with unfiltered water to save the unit. Being only small it takes 1-2 minutes to fill a 10L bucket, it has 3 layers, Carbon, some resin stuff and floss...

I change the cartridge every 2 months (only costs $6-8)...

Nothing flash but I have tested the water afterwards, and levels were better than straight tap water, and if it makes sense, when tasting it, it tastes plain (no chlorine like taste) just like bottled water we pay $2 a hit for...

HTH

[flukes]

For $6 I cant go wrong, Iam going to start some new breeding tank, running just off sponge filters meaning alot of water changes. So basically i want the water to be near perfect before it hits the tank.
I might use a cannister filter on my storage barrel filled with carbon, or does hanging a bag of carbon over the side result in the same effect??

[kalebjarrod]

just think how bad it is down thier. your dam is at 45%ish (i think) we had our dam down to 28% and once it hit 26% we went to stand pipes. that means we had our water TURNED OFF except for an allocated time each day.

scary

just goes to show that we all need to be as careful as possible with ALL our water use, bad enough losing our "friends" to such bad water problems, but imagine if we were never able to keep them in the first place due to such stringent water conditions.

Did you know that the Great Barrier reef requires a certain amount of fresh water relaesed from the queensland river system every year just to keep it functioning in the correct fashion. The DPI in QLD has studied this and have found that we draw more water out of our rivers in QLD than the recommed rate just in DOMESTIC water use, this does not include any COMMERCIAL or RURAL use. They have said that technically we should think of shutting down a major part of unviable rural and commercial businesses and destroy half the small rural dams which stops runoff.

And just think by 2026 Brisbane will be the second biggest city in OZ

If anyone thinks water is gonna get better soon think again. If it isn't already water will become the greatest bain in our hobby and our country.

[Proteus]

I have split this topic as it was getting side tracked...

and heck, the side tracking deserved its own thread :wink:

http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=835

[Proteus]

The filter details,

WaterPik Instapure Tap mounted water filter (F2-C)

http://www.waterpik.com/products/SpecDisplay.do?prdNbr=658

Removes:

92% Chlorine
84% Trihalomethanes
76% Industrial Solvents/Heavy Metals
72% Pesticides/Residuals

in combination with normal water aging additives I feel a lot safer than straight from the tap (and it tastes better as well)

(I got mine at Big-W and I think it was only $25-$29)

when I move eventually I will be looking at installing a 3-4 phase RO unit hooked up to a couple of 1000L containers.

[flukes]

thanks Ro, with stats like that its go too be worth getting one.

[Proteus]

There are plenty of others out there that are more effective, but they also cost a lot more... plus, the replaceable cartridges are only $6 (approx).

[kalebjarrod]

water chemisty can always be checked for a small fee by the hard working guys and gals at your local DPI

for a small fee thier lab will tell your EVERTHING about your water.

[flukes]

Personally i dont want too know, probably wouldnt drink water again :shock:

[Proteus]

Feedback from many LFS's is that customers in there droves are coming in asking questions after losing large numbers of fish.

All have shown sign of toxic/heavy metal poisoning.

Off the record, a Sydney Water employee stated, "They wouldnt even drink the stuff out of the tap, let alone put fish in it..."

there suggestion, only do water changes if absolutley necessary.

[kalebjarrod]

the funny thing is that its not the water you drink that affects you most

its all the products that require the water in thier production that you ingest that worrys me.

anyway couldn't be any worse than your smog?

[Mattzilla]

thanks mate.....hmmmm....

time for some big time water treatments

i think i will start using geo liquid in my water aging process as well as carbon and double dose of prime.

[kalebjarrod]

and what are you going to do for your fish?

[Proteus]

Pretty much have the problem nailed down...

The water is being double and triple dosed with Chlorine, Chloromines, Flourite, & COPPER (I have copper residue in my aging tub)

Plus the biggest problem, after extensive testing which was outsourced, Phosphates... from the water, not due to poor maintenance.

:cry:

if only I knew all the a few weeks ago, I would still have my prized 10 Clown Loaches...

[Mattzilla]

what are the main things we should be doing when we are treating our water mate? is there anything specific we need to do?

[Proteus]

I spoke to Allan Clarke this evening (person responsible for the 2 articles in the new forum, and a Disease/Aquatic all round guru)...

Activated carbon to remove the Copper (used to prevent Algae - remember our water is getting VERY low) and double/triple does with normal aging/dechlor agents.

As for phosphates, activated carbon, and regular water changes.

I am looking into getting some phosphate sponges imported from the U.S. (have sent a request to the manufacturer already)... we can get the product I am looking at getting here already, but it is priced between $16 & $20...

I should be able to get these for less than $4-$5 each...

I am going to try and get a bulk quantity in, also some carbon pads as well... (I have used them before, and they are great)

[kalebjarrod]

so how often should you change your carbon, and how much should you use in a 200lt storage container?

[Proteus]

I dont think it would be very effective just sitting in a storage tank.

Activated carbon, to capture most of the baddies needs the water flowing through it, such as in a HOB filter, etc...

I always have a few spare AquaClears floating around just for this purpose, dont like messing with the canisters and sumps, just throw on an AC, add some Carbon, maybe a sponge, and leave it for a few days.

Carbon only remains active for 3-7 days (even up to 14 days if it is top notch stuff) after that it acts like any bio hosting material, although inert... good thing is, it doesnt leech the baddies back into the tank like Ammonia removing media does)

HTH

[kalebjarrod]

so techincally i could put some in a spare powerhead in the water storage container and treat pre-tank?

and what is the rate of use? i cup full or 10?

[weird]

Absolute shocker at the moment .... nice white water north and south

[Mattzilla]

yeah good poimt ryan.....

can you just drop a mesh bag of carbon in your water storage and add a powerhead to circulate the water???


or is a hang on filter better?

[kalebjarrod]

i have one of those cheaper powerhead (still 1500lts) that you can attach extra sections on it

what is the rate of carbon per litre?

[lesxda]

I have heard about this geo liquid?

what is it?
what does it do?
do I need to add it?
when do I add it?
can U overdose on it? or the Fish I guess....

and if I use it do I not use other chemicals....

[Shawnts106]

GAH, that is horrible you guys! Im in the US Alabama (Oxford) and our water is excellent, they just installed another water treatment plant now to lower some kind of pollutant from in the earth.. I duno, but our water readout is good...!

our pH around here runs high.. about 7.2 to 7.4 or so...

In Austrailia you guys dont have Phosphate sponge? I can get the stuff from my LFS for like 12$US a bottle full..

its from Seachem I think.. good stuff... dont have to use it, but good stuff!

What are the symptoms of heavy metal poisoning?

with water that bad, I would buy the BEST RO/DI unit that I could afford, better yet... I would go get a loan to buy the best one made!.. or I would just stock up on Distilled water... or buy my own distiller!

[Proteus]

*bump*

Just a word of warning (from personal experience)

Sydney Water are once again bombarding our water with lovely chemicals to make the water safe for us, sadly, this cocktail mix is deadly to fish (additional Chlorine, Chloromine, Copper, etc).

Just last week my other half did some water changes on the Giant Gourami & Sth East Asian biotope tank, after doing so, the 200 litre ageing barrel was filled, and ager added (only the dosage needed to treat 200L - I usually double or triple dose).

Now, aside from the basic quantity of water ager, the barrel is highly aerated and is left for at least 48-72 hours before use.

3 days later I did my usual weekly 200L water chage on my main Discus display tank. Within hours the fish were cramping there fins, very dark and not behaving normally (shaking, huddling in a tight group, swimming at a slight angle). Yes, you could say I freaked out a little and was totally scratching my head as to what was the issue.

I added some Broad spectrum medication and aquarium salt as I could not work out what the exact issue was until I could speak to some other people about what was going on.

One thing that I do have hooked up to the tank is an AquaMedic MV Computer, which constantly reads the redox potential level in the water, it normally sits on around 270 to 330, it was reading 435 to 460 after the water change.

After consulting with some friends in the know, it was quickly discovered that my tank had an abnormally high percentage of Chlorine in the water??? (very strange given my usual practices of treating the water). Once armed with this extra info I proceeded to add some highly concentrated water ager into the sump. Within 25 minutes the redox level dropped from 340+ to 196, and in less than an hour the fish were all behaving as normal as though nothing was ever wrong.

I have since learned that in regards to redox levels, Freshwater should be at a reading of between 200 & 350, Saltwater 300 & 400 and a chlorinated swimming pool at 700 (to put things into perspective).

All I can say is the MV computer has paid for itself many times over already (based on the computer being approx $700 and the Discus value being in excess of $5,000 in the same tank).

Now I realise not everyone can go out and purchase a unit such as the MV computer, however I hope this shows how important it is to not only use products such as water conditioners, but to treat accordingly, and in Sydney at the moment, I would personally suggest a minimum of double dosing.

(FYI, I use AquaStar water ager (the newer more concentrated version of water ager ACN) 5ml treats 350L as well as Hagen AquaPlus (mainly due to the Aloe content))

http://www.aqua-medic.com/products/images/electronics/mvcomputer.jpg


MV Computer

Microprocessor controlled redox-potential (ORP) monitor and controller

The Aqua Medic mV Computer uses the same microprocessor technique as the pH Computer. Waterproof touch keys are used to set the required values and calibrate the electrode. The mV Computer is ideal for controlling anerobic biological filters such as the Aqua Medic Nitratereductor which have negative redox potential or can control the supply of ozone to the aquarium water’s redox - potential. All these functions are possible due to the computers broad measurement and control range of -500 to + 1000 mV. The direction of control can be set upwards or downwards. The status of the direction of control and the output are shown on LED’s.

[Proteus]

Just an update.

I have been informed that Sydney Water are adding extra chemicals to make the water safer for human consumption, and have also been informed by someone who lost an entire tank load of fish that the Ammonia level in the tap water was 3.8ppm per litre (this was confirmed by a call to Sydney Water)

[elvip]

Hi Proteus,
Sydney water sounds too scary atm! :shock:

Just a couple of questions:
- from what you say, I should be replacing my carbon regularly?? - I run my water in my barrels though an external filter containing only carbon
- I have always heard that the water filters and RO units waste a lot of water in their processes -about 2/3 of water is wasted- is this true??
- So Redox potential is also important in freshwater as saltwater aquariums? So by what mechanism(s) does your MV computer control the Redox potential (Ozone or Nitratereducter)??
- Is water hardness in any way linked to Redox potential?
Sorry to fire all these questions at you - but I think I may just have to look at investing at one of these MV computers!!:wink:

Thanks for all your help
Cheers
Elvira

[Baro]

I recall hearing on the radio that there was a blue-green algae bloom in Warragamba. According to http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/disaster/drought/bluegreenalgepoisoning.html Copper sulphate is used to treat blooms.

"If repeated blue green algae blooms occur, consider treatment of the water. Copper sulfate is most commonly used. A level of 1 part per million is usually considered the upper level of treatment."

Increased Chloramine and Chlorine levels would also be a possible treatment.

The Australian Drinking Water Guidelines http://www.nhmrc.gov.au/publications/synopses/eh19syn.htm

"Blooms of algae and cyanobacteria may be controlled by judicious application of copper sulfate or other algicides to the source water, provided that the cyanobacterial genus is not toxic."

The NHMRC guideline value is 2 mg/l for copper. ">1mg/L may stain
fittings. >2mg/l can cause ill effects in some poeple." "Copper entering a water treatment plant may be removed to some degree through coagulation with clarification/filtration. Elevated pH assists in copper removal."

Ammonia may be from clorinamine treatment of the water "In drinking-water treatment, ammonia is added with chlorine (at a fi xed ratio of ammonia to chlorine) to produce chloramine disinfectants... To produce monochloramine, the pH should be between 8 and 9... Chloramines present in water are harmful to people on kidney dialysis and to animal species in aquaria; therefore, it is important for water utilities using chloramination to inform consumers at risk."


And with summer on the way there are likely to be more blue-green algal blooms. So I will need to do some surfing for copper test kits and removal methods.

Cheers,

Paul.

[boost.puppy]

hey guys, I don't know if many of you guys know, but I work for the catchment authority, today I ran a report of the latest water conditions as of this morning.. I thought you guys might like a peek.. I'm sorry other states, I don't have access to the same info... ENJOY guys

Turbidity Lab/Field (NTU)
9.33

True Colour at 400nm
32

Iron Total (mg/L)
0.76

Manganese Total (mg/L)
0.06

Aluminium Total (mg/L)
0.33

Total Hardness (mgCaCO3/L)
25

Alkalinity (mgCaCO3/L)
17

pH (Lab/Field)
6.94

Temperature (Deg C)
21.8

Areal Standard Unit (algae)
678

this is the first part of the report.. theres a TON of them, if anyone is interested in anything NOT on the list, lemme know, I'll organise it for you.

It's interesting to see what the dam state is & what actually comes out of our taps...

[boost.puppy]

Guys, I was just talking to the manager in Bulk water.. I asked him directly about the Copper Sulfate & he assures me this is hogwash.. due to two reasons.. Copper sulfate is not cost effective in any way & wouldn't affect the algae at all! So I'm sorry but the website is incorrect. the ACTUAL way they are losing the Algae is that the Algae lives at the Surface of the dam, so they are withdrawing our supplies at 40% so to bi-pass the algae...
I asked him (as he is a fellow fish breeder) what's going on with the add-ons & he's assured me it's not been from the catchment authority, Sydney water adds chlorine, and ammonia (to make the chlorine last longer) which then makes it safer for us to drink, but not so much for our fishies.
I hope this clarifies everything for everyone, I am currently running a report on the latest dam stats.. hopefully I will have it for you guys by this afternoon.

I think the two best options is running extra ager (find one who consontrates on chlorine) OR get a tank hooked up to your down-pipes & use the rain water.


I recall hearing on the radio that there was a blue-green algae bloom in Warragamba. According to http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/disaster/drought/bluegreenalgepoisoning.html Copper sulphate is used to treat blooms.

[swingn]

Just for info, I checked the PH & KH this evening with water that I was about to put into my tank.

PH = 7.2 - 7.4

KH = 1 - 2

I normally ajust PH before adding to my tank, but was somewhat supprised how hard our water is.

[Proteus]

I wonder how the composition os Sydney water is no with the addition of the de-salination plant which is feeding water into one of the catchments.

I think this only effects people within 5-10km of the coastline but there must be a change somewhere in the water chemistry

[Proteus]

lol... pays to read other posts before posting...


Technically the Desal water will be just a slightly lower grade then RO so if anything it should be better (stable 150ppm tds vs 96-136 from prospect/warragamba), from what i understand they'll be using the De sal water to top up prospect res as well eventually which means most of greater syd will have a mix of dam storage and desal water.

the water in the res has been tempremental, i'm getting a ph of 7.3-7.6 out of the tap and a kh of 5~9 as well as massive spikes in chloroamine after rain. I was hoping the desal would help stabilize it, if for no other reason to make adjusting my water chemisrty more idiot proof but i guess linking the Desalination plant to prospect is still a few years away.

http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20504