RO water, peat and pH: a saga

[Noddy65]

Hi everyone
Well my dramas with Apisto continue...
Heres the setup. Note: All tanks are the same volume ~ 50 litres.
Tank 1: around 40 African Cichlid fry (electric blues and yellows), plain brown aquarium sand substrate, some java moss, water change weekly with water straight from the tap, tank pH: around 6.2
Tank 2: pair of nijseni, 6 White cloud minnows, plain sand substrate, driftwood, java fern and java moss, two little terracotta pots, water change is RO filtered through peat (pH 5.2), water in tank even after 20% water change pH 7.5.
Tank 3: just 6 minnows, no substrate, 2 terracotta pots, driftwood, java moss, water change same as tank 2 (ie pH 5.2), tank pH 7.2.
Tank 4: 6 minows, no substrate, driftwood, no pots, 80% water change with RO/peat (pH 5.2), tank water pH 6.9
Tank 5: 6 minnows, plain sand, no pots, 20 % water change with RO water (pH 5.2) tank water pH 7.3

Question: how do you people maintain acidic water, I struggle to get it below 7.0. It seems that the substrate and/or the pots are increasing the pH. I dont mind losing the substrate but I need the pots for spawning, how do people maintain low pH using ceramic pots and substrate?
Tank 1 has an ok pH, it has the same substrate as all the other tanks with substrate but a much heavier bioload. Could this be making the water more acidic?

Help me Obiwan kenobi, your my only hope..

Mike

[Th0mas]

Hi everyone

Help me Obiwan kenobi, your my only hope..

Mike

Sorry - I'm not Obiwan, but might have some answers.....

You've already pointed out that the bioload in one of the tank, and that is one way to get the pH down. But at the risk of nitrate problem.

Other ways are acid buffer (chemical warfare) but will not soften water, peat - no miracle as it's slow and will tan water. Then there's the ADA substrate which many uses (no experience from me here), as well as CO2 injection.

So it's really your choice to decide what works and what doesn't. In my case, it is a combination of peat, load (and CO2 in some tank).

Thomas.

[Noddy65]

Thanks Thomas
Ive been nervous about putting more than a pair of apisto per 2' x 1' x 1' tank (along with some minnows). However it may be worth risking the aggression to help decrease pH.

Ive thought of the chemical way but Im not sure if it will work (I may have to use heaps) to get teh pH down given teh water that is going in is quite acidic.

Ive just popped a bag of peat into one of the worst tanks (ph 7.9) even after water changes). Ill see how it goes. It may be better to have the peat in each individual tank and constantly influence that water rather than add peat filtered water to the tank.

ps: panduros are still doing well, theres not a lot, only maybe 10 or so, but they seem to be doing well.

Mike

[Grae]

Hi Mike

thanks for the grand tour on Sunday
Great looking fishroom, BEST IVE EVER SEEN!!!!!

Anyway back to your post

i also struggle to get my Ph down( thanks for help guys)
I am going to use the ADA substrate and will keep you informed how that goes.
The other way mentioned is CO2.Well we know that works but its hard to run so many bottles.
I have read about using Oak leaves and have some in a bucket just now.Has great colour but is so brown i cant use a test kit on it.

The other way i don't know much about.I had a phone call the other night and was told about using a chemical to precipitate out some of the chemicals causing the hardness and high Ph and then using another to lower the Ph.I cant be more specific as i didn't understand what i was hearing( he is a chemist, I'm a carpenter) If you want to know more i could ask him to contact you.
Hope this helps a little

Graeme
PS The outlaws love their new fish.Thank You :D

[Noddy65]

Thanks Graeme
Its very frustrating...interestingly the only pair to get wrigglers out of all those tanks is the pair in the one tank that maintains the pH at around 6.5...I have no idea why it stays low as it is exactly the same as all the others..

Will have to see how things go over the next week or so...

Mike

[Th0mas]

Thanks Thomas
Ive been nervous about putting more than a pair of apisto per 2' x 1' x 1' tank (along with some minnows). However it may be worth risking the aggression to help decrease pH.

Ive thought of the chemical way but Im not sure if it will work (I may have to use heaps) to get teh pH down given teh water that is going in is quite acidic.

Ive just popped a bag of peat into one of the worst tanks (ph 7.9) even after water changes). Ill see how it goes. It may be better to have the peat in each individual tank and constantly influence that water rather than add peat filtered water to the tank.

ps: panduros are still doing well, theres not a lot, only maybe 10 or so, but they seem to be doing well.

Mike

Mike,

A 2x1x1 might a bit small to house more than 2 pairs of apisto unless you're only intention is to grow them out rather than breed. Otherwise the breeding pair will generate a fair bit of agression that may stress out others.

I also had the believe that the terracotta pot do buffer the pH upward, as I've found the pH of the tank that don't have peat will wander around 7.5 (Sydney water comes out at 7.8). Even after adding Seachem acid buffer, it will climb back up in a week time.

So I'll say ADA substrate and peat is probably the most suitable choice for apisto in order to soften water as well as dropping pH. ADA should keep the water buffered at 6.5, while peat will drop it even further if not closely monitored (in my case, I usually let it drop to around 3.9 before I do a water change - and all my apisto are quite happy going through this ordeal dispite it's not nice). However never do this with trifasciata (or cacatoides, there will be other species that I've not tried yet), the lowest I've found they can handle is 5.5, anything lower they'll be really stressed out.

Thomas.

[fishgeek]

mike how do you measure you pH
and waht are you doing that brings the water treated with peat (pH5.2) upto more neutrallevel

very soft water is more diffiult to accurately measure pH prehaps a more accurate measuremnt technique may show some discrepancy

do you mix the treated water? with water parameters is the water you are mixing it?

i hvae hard water
i filter it through r/o di and then peat and use these purely by itself , i never have problems with low pH upsetting the fish nor a biological filter not working

when you are saying yo change 20% or 80% is that a ratio that you mix tap and r/o peat?

if so i would assume that your tap water is high in hydroxly ions(sometimes alkali are used in water suply to stop reactions with pipework)
when mixing this with filtered water the number of OH- ions is higher than the H+ ions hence the swing in pH
by messing about with differnet ratio's of r/o peat and tap you will find you can get a suitable setup

start with mixing up cups of 80/20 90/10 95/5 etc and seeing whether they are at a pH you would like

andrew

[parkap]

Mike,

Two things:

First: Your fishroom was mentioned above. Any chance of posting some photos?

Second: When I'm not using my CO2 injection, I use Aquasonics pH Down (liquid form only). I just add some during the water change to maintain the current pH setting. Seems to work fine and no detrimental effect on the fish from what I can see.

Regards,
Peter.

PS. Show us your fishroom. :D

[Dave76]

Hi Mike

Have you tried almond leaves at all?

I've found they actually do a better job at lowering the ph than peat did in my discus breeding tanks....

I can probably spare a few for you to try if you like....

Cheers

Dave

[Waldo]

Somethings wrong with your RO if it's dropping that high of pH. make sure your lines aren't crossed or that your not leaking the waist water back into the good water. Can you take a picture of your RO unit? Also what kind of substrate do you have?

[Grae]

Hi guys
Mike isnt being rude by not answering
He is off on a late honeymoon ( all the best mate)

Do almond leaves really work?
I have got a bucket with oak leaves and that sure changes the water colour.....

Graeme

[Waldo]

Hi guys
Mike isnt being rude by not answering
He is off on a late honeymoon ( all the best mate)

Do almond leaves really work?
I have got a bucket with oak leaves and that sure changes the water colour.....

Graeme

Cheers Mike! :wave2 :thumb

Yeah they work. We use them in some of our tanks in Peru. Best if the water is RO'ed first.

[Noddy65]

Thanks for the replies everyone.
Thanks Graeme...yes Im on my late honeymoon, currently in Darwin and about to drive down to Adelaide and then back across teh Nullabor to Perth. we planned this when petrol prices werent so ridiculous :( .

The wife is off doing family things so ive a few minutes.

Ill try and answer some of teh questions:
1. I use a pH pen for measuring pH so I assume its accurate.
2. the 20% - 80% was just a test one of water change ie I replaced 80% of the water in a pH 7.8 tank with RO water with a pH of 5.5 etc
3. Id love to use ADA substrate but I have around 15 tanks and at around $30 a tank here for the substrate the wife would castrate me :D .
Ill try and find alternatives ie oak leaves, almond leaves etc. Alternativly Ill get some substrate but only use it on a few tanks when i get some special apistos in.
I think my high pH (ie 7.8 etc) is being influenced by the gravel (I put ro/peat water in a small tub with just the gravel and the pH went up to 7.5 quickly), and the ceramic pots.

Thanks for all your replies people.

Ooops...I think I can hear the wife coming :D

Regards
Mike

[fishgeek]

sounds like you sorted the problem then , get rid of the gravel
and it costs you nothing

andrew
ps you coud always use ada think of the money you could save on not having children :wink:

[Th0mas]

ps you coud always use ada think of the money you could save on not having children :wink:

That's the reason why I (as well as Steph - I think) couldn't afford ADA :banghead

The cost of raising your own ones (not the fish kind) is sooooo expensive.

Thomas.

[steph]

That's the reason why I (as well as Steph - I think) couldn't afford ADA :banghead

The cost of raising your own ones (not the fish kind) is sooooo expensive.

Thomas.

Its the time that they take, kids not the fish ;) .. not to mention the "help" with the water changes :roll: oh.. and the running at the tank, hitting it with both hands at full speed. Ever seen a full 4ft tank rock on its base ? :shock: I think Ive sorted that one out but no wonder my Inca's never get past egg stage, they keep thinking there is an earthquake coming.

Steph

[Th0mas]

Its the time that they take, kids not the fish ;) .. not to mention the "help" with the water changes :roll: oh.. and the running at the tank, hitting it with both hands at full speed. Ever seen a full 4ft tank rock on its base ? :shock: I think Ive sorted that one out but no wonder my Inca's never get past egg stage, they keep thinking there is an earthquake coming.

Steph

Well at least I'm glad mine doesn't help out with the water changes nor run into tanks. He doesn't seems to pay much attention with the tanks and what's inside, perhaps they were here before he is.

Guess I'm lucky.

Thomas.