Apisto viejita

[vphilou]

Hi,
I bought 2 apisto from SLS on saturday (meant to be a juvenile pair of veijita although I suspect the small one "female" is a cacatoide, not sure yet). Well the small one is going fine and is pretty active but the other one is behaving pretty miserably (hide all the time in plants/driftwood, do not even come out to eat anymore, only did on the first day I put it in the tank, I feed frozen brine shrimp and dry food ).
All parameters in my 350L seem fine (pH=6.6-7 variation morning-evening, gH=3, kH=4, Nh4=0, nitrate and nitrite =0 T=27deg, I also have an air pump running all the time at a very slow rate)

Do you think there is anything abnormal with the setup or is it normal for fish to react in this way in the first few days?

The 2 Apisto are alone with 4 little wild guppys.

Thanks for your help

Philippe

[parkap]

Philippe,

Your water parameters are ok. The top end pH is possibly a tiny bit high, but within acceptable tolerances for veijitas.

Did you aclimatise them to your tank before putting them in?

Did you ask SLS what they were feeding their fish in the shop? Perhaps the fish just isn't used to the food your giving it. If a fish is stressed by it's new surroundings, trying to get them to eat new types of food can be impossible until they've settled down.

Hate to say it though, it sounds exactly what was happening to so many of my male agassizii's for ages. i'd put them in the tank and they just wouldn't eat and eventually died after a few days.

The other very concerning thing here is that SLS would sell you veijita's when one's possibly a caca. These are two very different species and while a beginner could mix them up and not notice the differences, there's no excuse at all for SLS to make such an error. Can you post any photos of them for us to check out?

p.

[Th0mas]

Hey Phillipe,

The other item you can tweek is the temperature - 27 is also a bit on the high end for apisto., is there a reason for this?

I would drop it down to 25, or even 23 if the rest of the tank are okay with this.

As for the hiding/inactive problem, as long as you're aware it is not loosing weight, it would be fine. Some fish are just naturally shy and will hide whenever anything move outside of their tank (my macmasteri are like that, and they're fat as pigs).

If you can take a couple of photos, it would really help.

Thomas.

[wickedglass]

I keep my viejitas at pH 5 and 29 C and they love it. They've bred in there and there's fry now and the male is back in the holding tank ... the water is filtered through peat .... my holding tank is a bit different though, the water is 7 pH and 27 C, and they love it in there, too (I have 3 males in there). hardness is extremely low on all my tanks.

the Viejitas have more of a spotted, intermittent black line than the cacs!

[vphilou]

Ok,
Thanks all for your suggestions, first Thomas I will take on board your suggestion and drop the temp to 25 as I also think that 27 could have been a bit high!

I have added a few pic, In fact I don't know what is the female (not even sure it is a female) but it has a very strong continuous line accross the body which I thought was not common on veijita.

I also forgot to mention that the male is very territorial toward the female and will not let it get closer than 10cm. It stays under the root and does not move not even do get food.

On the topic of food SLS told me they feed blood worms but I don't have any right now, I feed frozen brine shrimp. What do you guys think about this food, I did notice that a lot of fish shew it and then spit it!

Thanks all again

[fishgeek]

the photos are not good enough to say much

it appears that the fish is certainly not a cactoides
there are no visible belly stripes and the

also the spot in the caudal peduncle appears to be more typical of a viejita

andrew

need more light in the tank, shine a desk lamp and let the fish settle then try again

[arjay]

My Apistos aren't terribly keen on frozen brine shrimp either, they will occasionally eat it but most of the time they taste it and then spit it out. The only thing they will all eat without any hassles is bloodworm. I did finally get my cacatuoides to eat chopped Fish Fuel "cichlid dinner" which was great but it took a while.

Forgot to mention - I agree with Andrew, I'm pretty certain that's not a cacatuoides.

[Th0mas]

According to the photo, it can be an apistogrammoides pucallpaensis (the sideway "T" pattern on the tail end). Not certain of the gender unless a close up view is avaliable. I don't think it's a veijita as the lateral line is very solid and the body lacks any yellow/red tint.

If this is the case - you've got yourself a bargain - the pucallpaensis is definitely more expensive than the cacs, but will be more happy in lower pH water.

Not surprise the male is not happy with his mate, as it is a totally different species.

Frozen BS isn't too popular with my apisto either, so I've dropped it from their diet. Most of mine are on Frozen bloodworm, get the Hikari one as it's lots cleaner. I've not encounter any bloodworm problem with cacs or pucallpaensis so far.

Thomas.

[fishgeek]

lots of fish have the caudal peduncle spot , including macmasteri/viejita

i dont think we can call it anything form the photo's

andrew

[vphilou]

First I just want to remind you that I was meant to get a pair of Viejita and not cacs, I just said that I thought the small one was a cac but now I do not believe so anymore. It has a tiny bit of blue on its tail and cheeck and the body shape is not one of a cac.

I have dropped the temp to 25-26C, this morning no apparent change, the male is still very lethargic (at exactly the same spot as yesterday) and does not even seem to react to the female passing close.

I will try to get more pics tonight but don't think I will have the male any closer than in these photos (the tank is 500 deep).

Also I will get some blood worms and see how lucky I am with those.

Thanks all

Philippe

[wickedglass]

heres slightly enhanced versions

[kevkoi]

A.viejita "blue" wildcaught frm last Peru import.

Definately no caca or pucallpaensis.

And u have a pair... Females show prominent line.

[Pavel]

Ok,
...On the topic of food SLS told me they feed blood worms but I don't have any right now, I feed frozen brine shrimp. What do you guys think about this food, I did notice that a lot of fish shew it and then spit it!...

I suggest to try some life food like blackworms or daphnia. Unless there is something really wrong with a fish they just can't resist moving food. Once it starts eating life food you can gradually switch to non-life food. (I personally feed my fish with almost only with life food and never had any probs. I know that there a few posts about diseas which can be introduced with life worms but that's related to US hobbyists who get the worms from Mexico. As far as I know in Australia there is only one commercial worm farm that supplies all LSFs in the country).

Regards,
Pavel

[vphilou]

Well Pavel you could not be more true on this matter I think,
I just went to the shop during my lunch break and they had no live food left so I got frozen blood worms. When I finally managed to get some falling next to him the big apisto came to have a look at it gave it a bit of nudge and went back to his hide without eating anything.

The guppys and the female do not have this problem however and are cleaning up everything in the tank.

I will have to restock in live food tomorrow...

Today I have turned off the light this morning and only left 1 neon on this arvo.

Phil

[Th0mas]

Hatching Brine Shrimp isn't that difficult and apisto cannot resist them either. There is no real need to grow them out as they will loose their nutrition value. Feeding them when they've just hatched is fine and apisto will happily hunt them down.

Thomas.

[fishgeek]

phil
i would be inclined to buy/get some r/o water and do regular small/partial changes to see if the male feels more comfortable

what are your water parameters at right now?

does the male look thin in the belly?
have you seen any feaces

kev are these fish wild caught or tank bred and imported ?


andrew

[vphilou]

The water parameters are as follow:
pH=7
gH=3
kH=4
Nh4=0
nitrate and nitrite =0
T=25deg


I have done a 10% water change yesterday with 2L of boiled peat water (pH=6.6 but doesn't affect total pH since such a small quantity)

The male does not look thin on the belly but I havn't seen any faeces so far

Phil

[fishgeek]

water seesm good
often the stress of shipping wild fish can lead to simple problems becoming more problematic
watch his feaces
possibly prohylatically worm and metronidazol him for any gut parasites (namely nematodes and protozoa) these can lead to gut pain inappetance and wasting and have best chances of recovery if aided early

i see kev ahd already stated wildcaught

[vphilou]

Hello all,

Today I went to get some live black worms and unfortunately it is still not conclusive. The male came close to the worms attacked it a bit and then let it go with no further interest, he even seemed to be a bit scared of the thing avoiding the worms...

On the other hand the female is still very active and in no time had swallowed 4-5 good size worms, even the guppys manage to eat the thing attacking at 3-4 to 1...

The male is still very territorial toward the female and keep her out of a close perimeter (although it seems to be less conclusive since the female does not seem very bothered at all, in fact she is getting fairly aggressive toward the guppys scavenging the tank back and forth!)

Other fact I noticed some white stringy faeces hanging of the male, I have seen that before and it was usually preceding a fatal outcome for the concerned fish!

Thanks again for your help

Phil

[fishgeek]

try and get him treatment with metronidazol, is best if it can be gotten in orally though if he is not eating then treatment in water is going to have to do 25mgs/l permant bath redose every other day for 3 dose's

[Th0mas]

try and get him treatment with metronidazol, is best if it can be gotten in orally though if he is not eating then treatment in water is going to have to do 25mgs/l permant bath redose every other day for 3 dose's

Yeah, I'll give metronidazol a go as well. Take him out to a small hospital tank and treat him there (You wouldn't want to treat the whole tank).

Do you know what metronidazol is?

Thomas.

[fishgeek]

antibiotic with antiprotzoal and anaerobic effects
andrew
i believe it is prescription in australia
check out the discus medicine pages here lady red is very helpful and there is already nformation on where you might source metronidazol in australia

[vphilou]

I have made a bit of research looks like you can get it in flagil, which is also prescription but probably easier to get or it is through a vet.

Thx
Phil

[Th0mas]

Phil,

Yes, the human form is flagyl and it is more effective with it's higher content. And it does require a perscription, which isn't too difficult if you explain with your GP of your intend and the dosage.

The alternative is Waterlife's Octazin. A rather expensive way but you won't need to worry about the prescription. It's really your choice.

Thomas.

[Noddy65]

Yeh guys...Metronidazole comes in a few brand names: Flagyl, Metrogyl etc...most commonly available from your vet is 200 mg or 400 mg tabs...usually around $1.00 - $1.50 ish a tab plus dispensing fee.

Mike

[vphilou]

Well I got some yesterday (one of my friend last prescritption left over) in 400mg flagyl tabs. I have started the bath yesterday unfortunately I fear it is too late the male is now very skinny and do not move much at all and still does not eat anything. I think it has a couple of days left at the most.

It really affects me because it is the second couple I get that dies in similar conditions and I had invested a lot to get the conditions right 100% this time! Plus the fish here are ultra expansive (no comparison with Europe where you can get a pair of colorful adult viejita for 10-15 Euros vs $80 here)

Anyway thanks all for your help, I really appreciate, this forum is very informative and full of very helpfull people.

Phil

[vphilou]

Hello all,

I have some good news today :lol: After4 days of intensive care my male is back from hell :blob2 , he was starting to show signs of recovery yesterday (ate a few live worms and was a bit more active although still very shy).
So the metro bath at 25mg/L with water change every 12 hours seem to have had an impact.

This morning I released the male in the tank and he also ate a bit, he now moves a lot more around his new home and does not stay prostrate in a little corner.

However when he first saw the female again it did not go as well as I would have expected, he started to follow her around and I thought it was ok but then something happened and they started to fight, gripped mouth to mouth and sinking to the bottom of the tank with neither of them seeming to want to let go, I was worried to see my young convalescent male in this situation (the female is pretty strong now she eats a lot and is very confident)

Anyway now the male seems to have recovered his predominant position and the female avoids/ignore him when he shows signs of threat!

Does that seem like a normal behavior to you guys?

Thanks all guys for the good advice!

Phil

PS I am off to burn a little candle as I really thought the male was gone (he was so skiny and white on saturday night!)

[Th0mas]

That's fantastic, well done.

The jaw locking is quite normal in apisto world. As long as they're not killing each other (massive fin and body damage).

Just keep am eye out in case of he's not totally recovered yet.

Thomas.

[Robdog]

So where can I get some of this metro stuff in sydney?

[Th0mas]

As mentioned in earlier post, it comes in several form.

The common human form is Flagyl, and it is a perscription drug. Some LFS may have it and sell them individually, otherwise they should have the aquarium form - one is Octazin (made by Waterlife).

Thomas.

[fishgeek]

phil i would be inclined to mix some metronidazol, raw garlic and food together and freeze it in a small ice cube try or previously emptied fozen food pack

this can then be used in the short term future to ensure that the assumed gut protozoa are totally cleared from all the fish in the tank

andrew

[vphilou]

Hello all,

Here it is after a couple of weeks battling the disease my viejita male is dead, he seemed pretty weak lately and this especially after a more than unexpected event occured on saturday morning!

Yeah before dying the little male with the now still very alive young female have given birth to a group of little wrigglers! I was so surprised I still have difficulties to believe it! The female who, over the last 2 weeks, was hiding in a bunch of plants and beeing quite violent with everything swimming around (including the male) has finally shown herself with about 30-40 young free swimming apisto (see pic below)

I give my fry, egg yolk and frozen baby shrimp, if you have any other ideas fire away!

I don't know what are the odds of survival for the fry now since the male died but we will see what happen, it does confirm me that the water quality and conditions in the tank are good. I don't know what the male died off, he was still pretty weak and this morning he had a bloatted belly with blood red chest when I found him dead.

Phil

[Robdog]

Hey dam pity about losing the dad but thats awesome about the fry. Good luck with them :!:
Just had a bit of a Metro experience myself but not with the same success. Female Aggie looked crook and wasn't eating. Put her in hospital tank and treated with Bactonex for a few days with no improve and finally got around to finding some Metro from SLS only to come home and find her dead and extremely wasted. :( She is now an extremely furry lump on the bottom of the tank as I haven't had time to remove her.
I added the Metro even though she was very lifeless and within an hour she had a huge stringy cord coming from the anus. Interesting considering I assumed she was already dead.

R.I.P

[vphilou]

Hello all,

Just a quick update on the status of my little band of wrigglers, they are 2 weeks old now and swim everywhere in the tank, they have grown quite well, I would say about double in body mass and are getting quite strong. The mother is doing an outstanding job (especially considering her suspected young age, probably about 6-8 months, she seems quite small still).

Ah and also I found a pic of the defunt father of all these little guys, he was young too and had few colours at the time except at times when he would show off in a dark blue robe with strong patterns.

Phil

[Th0mas]

That's great to hear Phil, keep it up.

Pity the father has passed on, you may try and contact SLS to see if they know who has got more of these veijita (if they've ran out already).

Thomas.

[vphilou]

Hi all,

I went to SLS on saturday and checked if they had more of those Rio Pebas Apisto viejita, unfortunately they don't, also Kev confirm that he won't have a shipment for a while. If anyone got a chance to buy some of those please pm me as I would like to keep the strain, otherwise I will either have to mix this form with another one (which could be ok I don't know) or crossbreed but I guess it would be bad and anyway one day or another I would have to get new blood in there!

Thanks all

Phil