petros
Tue May 16, 2006, 05:56 AM
Any reason why my discus breath heavily? I totally closed the CO2 injection, I run 24 hrs the air pump, ammonia is 0, pH =6.6 but Nitrates around 20mg/l. Could the level of the nitrates be the reason of the heavy breathing? Ive noticed the discus at the pet store and their gills were almost motionless. Should I worry?
petros
Tue May 16, 2006, 06:32 AM
The thing is that Im not at home most of the time cause of my job. I only look at them for 1 or 2 hours with the lights on, and during that period I havent managed to see any droppings. No food no droppings I pressume. The temp is 30-31 celcious. The treatment was with metro and for a long time for this discus (1 month). I didnt understand the other ques.sorry. She is the largest fish in the tank, if that helps. The strange is that at the begging she was ok at the tank.
petros
Thu May 18, 2006, 06:04 AM
Well the nirtrites are close to zero, and they are not gasping for air at the surface. Concerning any harrassements, noone is trying to anoy her since she is the largest in the tank. If someone tries to do so, is pushed away by her forehead. Ill make I large water change and Ill see how it will go. The sad is that the fish with the heavier breathing is not eating and she is hiding. See if you like the relative topic "What should I do?"Thanks for the interest anyway guys.
razvan
Mon Jun 05, 2006, 10:03 AM
Sometimes the heavy breathing problems apears when the fish may stay suffocated at the water surface or he has just one gill that is functional, the other one stays closed for a long time. The gill's tissue is inflamated and has a ugly hump. There are big movements of gills or there is no movement? An healthy discus can ventilate his gills more rapidly at the feeding time or if there is a fight. Also the youngs are moving their's gills rapidly than the adults. The breathing problems are caused by:
-non-infection causes:
low level of oxigen - the insuficiet movement of water surface, organic materia at high level, suprapopulated tank, malfunction of the filter
amoniac - inadecvated biological filtration, chlorine in the water
Solution: big water changes
You know, if your water temp is high, you need more oxigen. Try lowering your temp level.
-infectional causes:
parasites - transparent thin worm, bacteria, viruses, fungus
The treatment is with drugs. I can recommand a treatment method but there is too many diferences between the products. I live at the opposite part of the globe.
petros
Mon Jun 05, 2006, 05:23 PM
The fish the last week started eating again, not massive quantities but she is eating and thats something. Im trying to figure what might be wrong in the tank taking in mind what you say and the only cause of the prob I can thing is the nitrate level and the high temp, (32 C) or an infection. Concernig the temp I cannot lower it cause the whole house is quite hot! I do believe that probably is an infection cause she breathes heavier (quicker), than the other discus. Razvan if you could post some treatments since we live not so far away. Thanks for the responce guys!!
razvan
Mon Jun 05, 2006, 08:50 PM
LOL. You are from greece.
So, the heavy breathing problem...
ABNORMAL BREATHING PATTERN
Sometimes respiratory problems are very evident, such as when fishes gasp for air by the water surface or when only one gill is functional, while the other stays close over an extended period of time. The gill tissue may be swollen, and partially protrude from the gill cover. Other times the symptoms may be more subtle, since they are evidenced only by the increased frequency or, on the contrary, by the absence of the gill movements. In other cases the abnormalities are limited to one side only. It is important to verify that the increased breathing rate persists over a prolonged period of time. Normal fish may in fact ventilate very fast, sometimes for several minutes, during feeding, fights or other moments of excitation. Juvenile discus breath faster than adults, and it may be difficult to suspect gill infections until mortality problems occur. Breathing abnormalities in most cases occur either for water quality problems, or for infectious diseases.
BREATHING ABNORMALITIES: NON-INFECTIVE CAUSES
Low Oxygen
Poor water surface movement, excess of organic matter (food, waste), bacterial bloom, overstocked tank, filter failure
Ammonia
Inadequate biologic filtration, chloramine in the tapwater, filter failure
pH crash, chlorine, certain medications, other toxic substances
Non-infective causes should be suspected first, and a careful evaluation of the water quality conditions should be the immediately performed. Even before a possible cause is identified, the best response is massive (at least 50%) and frequent (even several times a day) water changes, unless the problem is originated by poor quality of the tapwater itself (water companies sometimes change the composition of the water without warning the customers). The water changes should be continued until all symptoms are gone. On the market it is possible to easily find various types of neutralizers and special filter materials which inactivate various toxic substances. They can be used in addition to water changes, not as a substitute.
If ammonia is suspected, the simplest way to inactivate most of it is to keep the pH below 7, for example 6-6.5, so that the much less toxic ammonium is formed (many ammonia testing kits will still be positive, since they read the total of ammonia+ammonium). A pH much lower than that may severely impair biological filtration, compounding the ammonia problem.
Kits for the measurement of oxygen levels may be expensive, but they can be extremely useful. The normal oxygen levels of the aquarium should be known, so that moderate decreases causing no symptoms can be detected. In the experience of the Author, levels of O2 around 2-3 mg/l are associated with major respiratory problems of discus fishes. A simple airstone gives an immediate relief, until the primary cause is identified and eliminated.
Treatment for Poisoning/Poor Water Quality Test for ph, ammonia and nitrite using a test kit. Use carbon in the filter system or in a separate box filter in the corner of the aquarium. Carry out several large scale water changes. Ensure the tap water is treated with a conditioner to remove chlorine and heavy metals. Identify the source of the problem and eliminate it.
As usual, if no water quality problems are found or suspected, it is acceptable to presume an infective cause.
BREATHING ABNORMALITIES: INFECTIVE CAUSES
edited later:
Velvet or Rust - Symptoms: Clamped fins, respiratory distress (breathing hard), yellow to light brown "dust" on body. This disease has the appearance of a golden or brownish dust over the fins and body. The fish may show signs of irritation, like glancing off aquarium decor, shortage of breath (fish-wise), and clamping of the fins. The gills are usually the first thing affected. Velvet affects different species in different ways. Danios seem to be the most susceptible, but often show no discomfort. This disease is highly contagious and fatal. The best treatment is with copper at 0.2 mg per liter (0.2 ppm) to be repeated once in a few days if necessary. Acriflavine (trypaflavine) may be used instead at 0.2% solution (1 ml per liter). As acriflavine can possibly sterilize fish and copper can lead to poisoning, the water should be gradually changed after a cure has been effected.
Extremely small, transparent worms (less than 1 mm in most cases). Some are livebearers, others are egg-layers.
Protozoans (Ciliates and Dinoflagellates such as Ich, Oodinium, etc.)
Unicellular parasites with one or more "filaments" (flagella or cilia). Oodinium (the cause of "velvet") is particularly frequent and dangerous. Often associated with skin infections (dark color, white dots of various size and number, white patches) and weight loss.
Ich (Ichthyphthirious) - Symptoms: Salt-like specks on the body/fins. Excessive slime. Problems breathing (ich invades the gills), clamped fins, loss of appetite. Ich, Ick, white spot disease, whatever the name, this is the most common malady experienced in the home aquarium. Luckily, this disease is also easily cured if caught in time! Ich is actually a protozoa called Ichthyophthirius multifiliis. There are three phases to the life cycle of this protozoa. Normally, to the amateur aquarist, the life cycle is of no importance. However, since Ich is susceptible to treatment at only one stage of the life cycle, an awareness of the life cycle is important.
Adult phase - it is embedded in the skin or gills of the fish, causing irritation (with the fish showing signs of irritation) and the appearance of small white nodules. As the parasite grows it feeds on red blood cells and skin cells. After a few days it bores itself out of the fish and falls to the bottom of the aquarium. Cyst phase - after falling to the bottom, the adult parasite forms into a cyst with rapid cell divisions occurring. Free swimming phase - after the cyst phase, about 1000 free swimming young swim upwards looking for a host. If a host is not found within 2 to 3 days, the parasite dies. Once a host is found the whole cycle begins anew. These three phases take about 4 weeks at 70º F but only 5 days at 80º F. For this reason it is recommended that the aquarium water be raised to about 80º for the duration of the treatment. If the fish can stand it, raise the temperature even higher up to 85º. The free swimming phase is the best time to treat with chemicals. Raising the aquarium temperature to 80º F will greatly shorten the time for the free swimming phase to occur. The drug of choice is quinine hydrochloride at 30 mg per liter (1 in 30,000). Quinine sulphate can be used if the hydrochloride is not available. The water may cloud but this will disappear. By reducing the time (with raised temperature) of the phases, you should be able to attack the free swimming phase effectively. Some aquarists like to use malachite green, but it tends to stain the plastic and silicone in the aquarium. Most commercial remedies contain malachite green and/or copper, which are both effective.
Chilodonella - Symptoms: Dulling of the colors due to excessive slime, fraying of the fins, weakness, gill damage. This disease causes a blue white cloudiness on the skin and attacks the gills. Later the skin may be broken down and the gills destroyed. The fish may behave like they have irritations, by glancing off aquarium decor, they may have clamped fins and difficulty breathing. Acriflavine (trypaflavine) may be used at 1% solution (5 ml per liter). As acriflavine can sterilize fish, the water should be gradually changed after a cure has been effected. It also helps to raise the temperature to about 80º F.
Flukes - Your problem is called Gill fluke. Prazipro (http://www.rockymountaindiscus.com/prazipro.htm) kills gill flukes and external parasites. Add directly to the aquarium water twice, seven days apart. Kills free swimming worms in the aquarium (planaria), kills internal tapeworm. Gill fluke is a common disease in Discus and is worth mentioning separately to other external parasites. In adult Discus, it is usually associated with heavy breathing, however, in fry it causes much greater problems. When young Discus get to around 10 cent piece size, gill fluke may become a problem. The parents carry gill flukes in small amounts all the time and if the parents are left with the babies too long, after free-swimming, then the parents can pass them on to the babies. The classic symptoms are heavy breathing, and erratic swimming as though the fish has been bitten on the gill by something inside. This can be accompanied by a spasm and sudden paralysis resulting in the fish sinking motionless to the bottom. This condition seems to be brought on by overcrowding and high feeding rates associated with raising the fry, and can be avoided sometimes by spreading the fry out as they grow.
Gill flukes are monogenetic trematodes that need no intermediate host to reproduce. They are common aquarium pests, especially, it seems, in the cichlid aquarium. Egg-laying adults are 2 mm in length with damaging anchors and hooks. Their toughshelled eggs hatch in 1-5 days, often requiring repeated treatments to control serious infestations.
In a stressed aquarium, whether from lack of maintenance or an in creased fishload, the fluke population can reach epidemic proportions. The flukes feed on mucus, skin, and occasionally blood, and they just thrive in deteriorating water conditions. To treat flukes, first and foremost, give the aquarium a good maintenance session with a 50% water change and attention to the substrate, filter media, and inside glass. This to me is the most important part of the therapy, and cannot be avoided. You will already have, through this act, reduced the fluke population enormously, in addition to reducing bacteria and other toxins in the water, increasing the oxygen, and preparing the water for further treatment.
There are several ways to attack flukes depending on the circumstances. Especially where you wish to treat the entire tank, a simple salt treatment is often the safest and most prudent choice. The dose is four ounces of salt per ten gallons of water, maintained over three weeks to prevent reinfestation with newly-hatched flukes. Salt treatment is not recommended for tanks containing Corydoras and other salt sensitive fishes.
Formalin and commercial formalin/malachite green combinations are also used to combat gill flukes. These treatments are a bit more challenging and require careful attention to risk and safety factors. To use formalin and compounds containing formalin, again, begin with a scrupulously clean tank with added aeration. Formalin is added to the aquarium at three drops per gallon in soft water and up to six drops per gallon in hard water for an 8-hour period followed by a 50% water change. Alternatively, a bath of up to 15 drops of formalin per gallon can be applied for 30 minutes * but only with vigorous aeration and constant supervision. Formalin/malachite green combinations are used according to manufacturers' directions; of the three approaches, this is probably the most effective. Due to synergistic effects, formalin and malachite green together are more powerful than either is alone. Up to three treatments at weekly intervals may be required to knock down persistent fluke problems.
Adult fish normally tend to have a few flukes, and this minor population is considered like a few fleas on a dog * mildly annoying, but not an immediate emergency. Fry and juvenile fish, however, are often devastated by a fluke infestation, and often whole broods are lost just when they have started to get a little growth on them. It is not unusual for a whole tankful of dime (or nickel-sized) discus fry, for example, to suddenly start hanging at the surface and die off a handful at a time over a few days time.
To prevent future fluke infestations, quarantine every fish before introduction to the aquarium and keep up with scheduled water changes and maintenance. If gill flukes are a constant concern, especially in large tanks that are difficult to treat, consider an ultraviolet sterilizer to eliminate not only gill flukes, but other external parasites and algae as well.
In adult Discus, gill flukes often do not cause symptoms. When clinically evident, they normally progress in severity at a constant, but not too rapid, pace. Therefore, there is often time to choose and find the proper treatment. The same is not true for fry, which die very rapidly and sometimes without showing any obvious warning symptom. In such emergency case, see the following option 3) for a preliminary, emergency intervention.
In general, one reasonable approach to the presumptive treatment of gill infections is:
1) The most common agents of gill infections in Discus are egg-laying flukes and they should be considered the most likely cause of a newly occurred infection. Some valid treatment options in decreasing order of preference (choose one only) are:
- Praziquantel
- Flubendazole
- Fluke-Tabs
They are all described in the Treatment Schemes (http://world.std.com/~enjolras/symtreat.htm) section. If used correctly, the symptoms should resolve. When however the tank contains substrate such as gravel, it is sometimes very difficult to completely eradicate the infection, since the mulm at the bottom may protect the eggs from the action of the medication.
2) If there is no response to the treatment for flukes, or if signs of a skin ciliate or flagellate infection are present (for example, white dots on the skin or the fins) it may be presumed that one of those organisms, and not flukes, are at the base of the problem.
In this situation it is preferable to administer an elevated temperature treatment (see directions at the end of this paper). However, in community tanks, many fishes other than Discus may not tolerate it. In such situations, when the temperature treatment is not a viable option, the exact symptoms should be evaluated very carefully, and a specific treatment regimen chosen from one of the fish health books available on the market. Among the others, possible choices are copper, methylene blue, acriflavin, quinine chloridrate.
3) In life-threatening situations (for example, for fry affected by high mortality or if the fish is unable to eat anymore), when it is difficult to choose between a suspected fluke infection, or a protozoan infection, administer two or three doses of formalin+malachite green (see treatment scheme at the end of this work). This should produce at least a temporary relief of the symptoms. Then, proceed with a more specific treatment as indicated in the two preceding points.
REFERENCES: AquaWorld Magazine web site; Animal-World; Mary Ellen Sweeney web site
I think that's a general information that can help you and maybe is oke to use in australia too. Maybe someone else wants to come with a completion. I hope that's an usefull info for all the discus keepers.
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