Is bad parenting learnt?

[Robdog]

I posted this question on the apistogramma.com forum but I'd like to hear what some of the locals think.

All through the posts on this board people are continually posting
"My (enter apisto's name) just ate its 483rd bunch of eggs! What am I doing wrong? All the water params are perfect.....etc blah blah blah"
This also brings me to "should I pull the parents out and raise the eggs/fry myself?" A question I have asked myself just recently.
Is good/bad parenting passed on between parents and fry?
If the parents are pulled, do the fry grow up with no idea about parenting having not been a recipient, and would it more likely be an egg eater?
Does a fry that has been raised with one or both parents have a better chance of being a good parent itself??

[wickedglass]

them's some very good questions and the answers are quite divided. some believe that raising fry without parents will result in offspring that is somehow defective in rearing their own young. I haven't personally seen any evidence of this, and I've bred a lot of different kinds of fish over the years. Which doesn't mean that I'm disputing the idea that it may occur. Many of the "higher" animals learn from their parents about parenting. There's a now outdated, but still prevailing belief that animals of a certain kind cannot learn things, and that everything is based on instinct! Personally I haven't seen any evidence of this (at least in the vertebrates I've had the privilege of keeping).
And even amongst non-vertebrates, if something as seeminly unintelligent like the humble slime-mould can find its way through a maze to a food source ( http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s189608.htm ), why should it not be possible for fry, who in comparison are a lot higher up the evolutionary ladder, to learn some of their breeding and broodcare behaviour from their parents?
But how do you tell what factors are involved in "bad parenting"?

[Th0mas]

You can get a bad male, which means most if not all the eggs are infertile. The female makes the decision when to remove the bad egg. The only way as suggested is to remove the eggs from mum and try to hatch seperately.

However I do believe most female apisto are good mum, so I tend to leave it to them.

Ram on the other hand can be a different matter.

Thomas.

[Robdog]

Perhaps the term "bad parenting" wasn't the best choice.
I just read this on one of the discus breeding threads:
"I think the breeding instincts have long ago been bred out of angels"
Could this be a result of continual removal of eggs/fry or a combination of a lot of other things such as selective breeding? and could it also apply to other seemingly difficult species?

[wickedglass]

The short answer is that it's possible and it could be (the long answer kind of slides in here without a ripple), although personally I'm not aware of any specific research on this. And how could one, on a scientific basis, tell what exactly it was that caused "bad parenting" when so many factors may be involved. Its a tad difficult putting a creature with no vocal chords on a couch and getting them to unburden their heart about why it is they're such bad parents (especially when at that point they're busy gasping for water). Its all speculation .... whether something's been bred out, whether it's the individual fish gone rogue, wether it's the water, whether it's something learned or maybe it's the neighbour's kid pumping the stereo when you're at work.
It also sounds very possible, as you suggest, that a pair of fish will turn into "bad parents" by rote, through the continuous removal of the fry! Because one thing that has been observed is that many fish become better parents after having had a few spawns and raising their broods (so why not learn how to be worse parents if they always "lose" their spawn?)! So they can apparently learn various behaviour patterns (the truth of which you know when you have a herd of stampeding fish greet you in the corner of the tank and demand food everytime you walk past .... steadfastly assuring you that they haven't been fed at all today, in fact you never feed them enough, in fact, who are you? and why aren't you feeding them?... but I digress) ... or their brood-care instincts become re-inforced. I was talking to Crocky the other day, and he's got a couple of old male discus that will spawn with a female, and as soon as she's turned her back, make a healthy and nutritious snack of the eggs she's just laid, and he will do this continuously .... sometimes you can't trust those pensioners with your kids, can ya! But I've also heard of persistent, consistent cannibal females (ooommmchakka), but they're much rarer. I think it's got to do with having to develop those eggs for so long in their tummies that by the time they lay, they're loathe to lose them.
Anyway, you could talk yourself around in circles about this, until you're giddy and have to sit down, and I just realised that the long answer is exactly what the short answer is .... exept of course it's longer.
Basically there are/could be many reasons for "bad parenting" and anything that you could reasonably deduct may hold true! The thing is, we just don't know what causes it ....

inbreeding? stress? mental illness? no chance to have ever learned "good parenting"? dietary deficiency? mineral deficiency in the water? dislike for a certain substrate? colour enhancing food? being stuck in a four-sided box? having people continually walking past the tank? position of tank? over/under production of hormones or other chemicals? etc etc

the list could go on, pick what may be applicable to your individual situation/fish ... through the opportunity of observation and understanding you are the best person to make the call on your particular fish ;)

[Robdog]

Yep...ditto