Unexpected sighting of discus eggs on driftwood.

[RichVic]

Hello,
Last night I added a pair of adult discus to main tank (from quarantine) and this morning noticed they were guarding one leg of the driftwood & behaving strangely. Closer inspection revealed a batch of orangey eggs ?
which they were blowing on and guarding. The tanks has a school of tetra's and 10 juv. discus who are being chased away from this corner of the tank.
Not sure what to do. Its one of those double trickle filter tanks with quite a strong'ish current. Ph. is 7. Ammonia/Nitrite Zero Temp is set at 28 but the heaters in the house drive it up to 29.5. Should I do or change anything ?
or wait and see.
Cheers Vicki

[Merrilyn]

Congratualtions Vicky, your fish are certainly happy with their new home. It's unlikely they'll raise their fry in a community tank (although it has been done before) and most likely they'll lose them to the hungry mouths in the tank, or to the strong filter intake.

As they're the largest fish in the tank, they just might have a chance of keeping the other fish at bay, but you'll need to leave your tank lights on 24/7 so the parents can see and protect their fry.

You just might be lucky enough to raise a few babies from this batch. Time will tell. If you're anxious to raise fry, then putting the pair in a breeding tank, with just a sponge filter is the way to go.

Either way, good luck, and congratulations again :P

[RichVic]

Thanks ladyred - I wasn't intending to breed them, just wanted a couple of big fish to gawk at! Now all my protective instincts have been kick-started
and I feel impotent! Should I move the others out? for a couple of weeks?

[Merrilyn]

Give it a try Vicky. You've got nothing to lose. Move the others out into another tank, and let the pair have the run of the big tank.

You'll need to find a way to block off those filter intakes, or your fry are going to get sucked into them. You could try to attach a large piece of filter floss over the intake, or perhaps use those mesh "guppy saver" nets you buy at the local fish shop, and use them to cover the intakes, holding it in place with a rock or something.

Let me know how you go. :P

[RichVic]

Just updating
The eggs have disappeared as suddenly as they appeared.
I read that they relocate them after a couple of days somewhere but I cant see where to? The parents are both out swimming around as usual so I'm guessing the eggs weren't fertlised or something else was wrong with them & the parents have eaten/let them be eaten? So sad.

[RichVic]

Another Update,
They've done it again ! Caught them at it last night around 9pm - Breeding tubes down and busily cleaning - We quickly put in a makeshift divider and herded all other tank mates to the other end of the tank. Shut down the trickle filter, to stop the up-draft and hopefully allow fertlisation to take place.
I found out that the eggs go from Orange to black if fertilized or white if not fert. Last time I only saw Orange eggs for the 2 days they were there.
Fingers crossed.
Vicki

[Merrilyn]

Well, bad news and good news Vicki. :?

Sounds like those first eggs were fertile, if they stayed orange for 2 days. The parents don't relocate eggs, but they do move the wrigglers once they hatch, so it's possible they moved the wrigglers to an unguarded spot, and other fish ate them during lights out, or .... the parents may have eaten them, to "protect" them from the other fish in the tank.

Main thing, they are off to a good start, and they will eventually work things out and raise a bunch of fry.

It's all just a matter of time now.

Keep a small light on during the hours of darkness, so the parents can see to guard their precious eggs and fry.

And good luck. :P

[RichVic]

Oh NO !!!!!
They disappeared again this morning - Whats happening - no other fish to eat the larvae this time? Filter draw-up minimal, Params good Ammo/Nitrite 0 Nitrates 5 Ph 7.0 hardness 20ppm There were a few white one's there yesterday but most had darkened up. On the off chance that theyhave moved the larvae I'll leave well enough alone for the 50 hours or so they're supposed to take to get to the free swimming stage. But am on a hunt for a breeding tank have ordered auto-feeder, breeding cone, sponge filter etc.
So next time they can go the usual route.
Vicki

[RichVic]

Update after 50 odd hours - nothing happening at all no sighting of wrigglers.
Will move the parents out to new breeding tank and hopefully the move will not ruin their mood! Proteus/Taksan you have a pm.

[Merrilyn]

Discus can be very frustrating at times Vicki.

Just remember, if it was easy, then everyone would be breeding discus, and they'd be as cheap as goldfish, and we all know that's not the case :)

Young pairs can take months, even years to get things right, even if all conditions are perfect. It's a learning process for them. Eating eggs in the beginning is very normal for these fish, unfortunately. Next time they lay, they usually make a little further progress each time, untill eventually they get things right.

Even parents who have successfully raised fry before, can be disturbed by being moved into a different tank, and go back to their old tricks of egg eating, untill they eventually feel it's safe to raise a family in their new tank.

Patience is the key word here. Give them some time to settle in :P

[RichVic]

Thanks ladyred
They're at it again - maybe third time lucky, I'm not going to stress this time
just leave it to nature and let them defend the eggs etc. - I'm setting up another tank (breeding) which is more what they're used to, and will move them into that in another room if this lot of eggs is disappears as well - if I get wrigglers, at least I'll have a safe home for them to go to. Thanks again for your time & patience
Cheers
Vicki

[RichVic]

Hi gang, just updating to advise - third time was not lucky - have moved them to a bare-bottom tank with heater, sponge filter and breeding cone only
they went off food and fro the first day but have picked up -no signs of the breeding behaviour yet. I think they miss the bigger tank & their mates a bit
willgive them another week-

[shayesmommy]

good luck.
hope all goes well

[RichVic]

Guess what??
I have wrigglers !!!! have been a bit too busy to pay close attention over the past couple of days but this morning I saw that they were moving eggs and they were hatched eggs!.
Its the forth batch they've produced this month - I'm very happy, I decided to move them, nerve-wrecking as it was, Thanks to all who have been helping me with this (Ladyred, Ben & Taksan especially)

Cheers Vicki

[piranha-discus]

hi vicki
i hope u like enjoy the fish, once every thing is right for them
they will not stop breeding! i had too many babies from them. within about 5 days free swim u will need to feed them BBS (frozen from shop will do(cheaper) or hatch them by your self) and some very fine cut of beef heart mix , then about 7 to 10 days from free swimmers u will need to remove the babies
from the parents cos they will start eating the scales wich is not good, its like haveing a sore on your skin, about withing 7 to 14 days after thier babies being remove, they breed again,
cheers ben,

[RichVic]

Hi Ben -
I'm [Sooooooooooooo delighted! The wrigglers have gorwn and are starting to swim around the parents. I think there's around 25 or so that I can see at any one time but I'd be happy with any survivors ! They're so cute buzzing around the parents who spit them backonto the cone
Now I have a new question
I've got some miracle leaf teabags which i used to soften the water (Ph around 8 from tap) as suggested Ben, I gone to using aonly tap water for the
changes & Ph has slowly crept up to 7.2 and will keep creeping up slowly with each w/c. I know that the calcium is good for free swimmers but thought I might brew more miracle leaf for water changes for the antibacterial benefits what do you think? Vicki

[rytis]

that's thefragile stage: if you (they) get to the point where they are one week after freeswimming THATS where they look good!! i am at this stage for the first time right now, 10 days aftr eggs were layed only one alive, but hes chasing around like a puppy,

[RichVic]

Hi There, I think we're at day 6 from laying, but not exactly sure. This is a pair I moved to a new tank, only 8 days ago and I expected them to take longer to settle down before spawning again, but they surprised me and I am
wishing I could take a week off work, just to watch/enjoy them - alas I cant
but will do my best to get them past this fragile stage. I'm Very lucky to have babies so soon into a new hobby( Started Feb'06 with 10 juv.'s ) Hope I get a few that last the long term - Fingers crossed. Vicki

[RichVic]

Hi all just to update.
They're still all alive !!! and they have really grown this past week. They're 10 days old (hatched 3rd June) Still on the parents but I've started to feed them live BBS x 3 times a day. I sprinkled in a bit of spirulina and other times a pinch of naturose (that red algae food powder)in with the BBS. Also had a go with the frozen BBS, but I think they like it better it its alive. Darling hubby came to rescue with a DIY feeder - a bit of clear hose, 15" long with a teat on the end of it - (The teat is from a tiny milk bottle used to feed small joeys, who's mums were roadkill) anyway, it means you can gently get right over the top of parents with minimal disturbance and then drop the food. Guess what? by the 4th day, yesterday the babies have staretd to swim up to the teat and swarm in anticipation of food. Their bellies are still gray/black which I understand means they're still feeding off the protein secretions from parents. I am really enjoying watching them at the moment.

[shayesmommy]

congrats. post some pictures please. :)

[nicholas76]

I'll second that


pictures required!!!!!!!

[samir]

I'll third. well done :lol: hope to see pics soon

[RichVic]

hello to all
Unfortunately i've killed the camera for the moment - trying to work out the whole downloading and posting business etc. I left it on all night and killed the rechargable battery - our rural location means everything takes ages to organise -ordered another should be here soon. meantime i had my teenager take pics on his mobile phone, but they're not too good. He also did a bit of a video and I'm trying to post that here. Fingers crossed

[RichVic]

Thats a shot from the top when parents were swapping babies -

Couldn't attach video - have sent to ben via email because he is more comfy with deaf machinery which doesn't listen! (Grin)

[piranha-discus]

hi there
here are some pics of RICH VIC pair with baby discus
, this pic was taken when i had the pair and
they breed too many times, i bet when they get used
to the system that u have vicky, they will sporn more
than 100 babies, not 25!! cheers ben,
and good luck with them,
ps the pair should be moved out from
the babies around 10 days old or the babies will start to eat thier parents skin and would cause damage to them, infection etc.

[RichVic]

Thanks Ben, I actually sent the email to the other Ben (advisor) because he's been a very good general helper - but he couldn't open the file (no software for the mobile phone camera) and so I've let it go, thinking mine cant take much longer.
Now while you mention it, When do the 10 days start from?
I mean they hatched on 3/6 so they're 11 days old now, but they're still little tadpoles. They're still cruising between the parents rather than - I think Rytis said they 'run around all over the place like puppies'
The babies in your 1st. pic are much bigger? Just run by me what the different ages for stages, if you can. Thanks Vicki

[piranha-discus]

hi vicky i normaly seperate the parents from day 10 free swimmers,
but you dont have to, the only reason i seperate them is because
u will see the babies will start eat the parents scales, if tht happens then the parent fish will have a open wound, wich is not good it could get infection or take ages to heal up, a small wound like 2 scales missing scales took me 3 to 4 weeks heal up in a very light salt tank(pair always together wherever they go, in salt tank too) .1 table spoon salt and 60 lt water etc means they need long rest before to breed them again.if u remove the pair before the babies eat the scales , then the pair can breed in another tank in no time( up to 14 days).
the pic i sent u, they were different batches, they were born 2 weeks apart .the pic with larger babies were 14 days old and that day i removed them from parents, i hope u enjoy your baby fish ,
cheers ben

[RichVic]

So what you call the free-swimming stage starts around day 6 from laying? (ie 60 hrs to hatch and 55 hours wrigglers on the cone 4.5 - 5 days to complete) So free swimming 10 days is day 15 from the day they were laid?
Is that right?

[Inspiringfish]

Very fun thread !!!! Exciting !!!!!! Congratulations on the fry!!!!!

[Merrilyn]

Vicki, as long as the parents are happy with the fry, you can leave them with the parents for 4 weeks if you wish.

It's a lot of fun watching the fry with mum and dad. Start feeding them with baby brine shrimp from around day 7 of free swimming, and then at least three or four times a day from then on. That way they don't rely so heavily on the parents for food.

As Ben mentioned, watch your pair for signs of damage from the fry (this usually only happens with big spawns) and remove them if the fry seem to be eating more skin than slime coat.

[RichVic]

Thanks ladyred,
I was going to leave them a bit longer because the parents are still cruising around the tank, side by side, with the babies between them. Dad still goes after any wayward adventurers and spits them back onto mum - I'm taking this to mean that the parents are not ready to give their babies much independance yet? I've been feeding them the BBS live & frozen as well as squirting bits of boiled egg yolk in tankwater at them. Also have put some of the Tetra colour bits into the rock salt crusher and can use the auto feeder to feed while away. Hoping this means the parents aren't being taxed too much and that they can raise the babies a bit longer? Sadly I have lost a few - a couple behind the filter were found dead and then I found one dead on the bottom when I siphoned the bottom? On the other hand there's one whopper who's much bigger than everyone else and three other sizes, the dead ones were in the smallest size.

Wonder if I can leave the 24/7 lights off now (had wrigglers 3/6/06)

[RichVic]

Hello - got the camera fixed - Can't say the same for the photographer
:lol:

[piranha-discus]

hi vicky
lady red was right about the skin eating subject,
my first batch was ok without remove the pair till the babies were 10 cent pice size cos i the first batch i ever had from them were low number of babies , but the sporn afterwards from the first were normaly between 50 to 150 babies at a time and i had to remove the babies about between 10 to 14 days cos babies eat the pair skin, u never will know when to remove the babies untill u see one of the pair, parents has damage on thier skin from the babies eating them, once u see that by seeing a wound, then move the parents to another tank together to avoid the babies making more damage to mom and dad , u will see on the pair u have on thier head is a lighter colour patch, that was wound from thier own babies they had before with me, but the skin is recoved, just lost the blue scales to a fade colour scale etc , and about the light topic with those pair, i never used light, just natural sun light was enough for them lol, if u have light i would turn them off too, say turn them on at 12 pm and turn them off at 9 pm just 9 hour running time so that not too much algee grows in your tanks, i use a dignal auto timer to control the lights, its about around $30 from bundings
cheers ben

[RichVic]

Try again

[RichVic]

Here's another one

[Merrilyn]

Well done Vicki. You've done a great job :P

You can leave the lights off at night now if you wish. The fry are old enough now to go all night without a meal.

Don't worry too much about the loss of some of the smaller fry. It's normal to lose a few in the early days, and sad as it may seem, it's the way of nature that some don't develop fully. That's why they lay so many eggs. In the wild, losses would be very high.

Keep up the good work.

[RichVic]

Thanks. I am really enjoying the whole process and so is the family !
Sorry about the size of the first photo - I did go theu the motions of making it smaller by cropping, but it didn't work? The teenager re-sized the 2nd photo with more luck.
Anyway, I'm still very nervous about handling/netting the big fish and very nervous about moving parents while babies are still hanging "on"them all the time(in case I squash a baby in the net or my inexperience stresses them all to death?)
Is there a proper way to remove parents while babies are still on them?

[Merrilyn]

There's no need to move them just yet Vicki, and by the time you want to move them, just feed them. All the babies will move to the food, leaving their parents side, and it will be an easy job then. :P