Trial Feedback - double trickle tank

[RichVic]

Hi there
Just posting some trial results from this new tank.
For the non-melbournians, Its a 6ft x2x2 tank. The 6ft length along the back has a 2nd wall/compartment, so about 4inches lost in width of tank. and at each end is a trickle filter box (bioballs) which is around 18inches square. There's a heater compartment beneath each one. In the centre (top) of tank are two taps(pointing left and right) which put filtered waterback into the tank
Day one: Filled tank with tap water, put in handfuls of water hardner crystals, (its less than 20ppm from tap), removed the mechanical filter and observed the flow for a few hours until the heaters kicked in and dissolved them. We watched the taps blow the handfuls into either left or right and then they moved to the back corner where they started to spiral up to the trickle filter. Each end of the tanks draws in water from about 18inches in front of it. It did clear the bottom very efficiently.
So in went the fish, 25 assorted tetra's and 10 discus only. these were fed 3-4 times each day. Day four the bottom was still clean.
Added an inch of gravel waited a week, and vacuumed and noticed that there wasn't very much at all, and what there was, was in hidey holes created by the driftwood interrupting the flow.
OUTCOME: Big time saver, but still need to siphon certain spots.
Gone the Zen look with a big bit of driftwood in the centre. two larger anubias attached, one sword and waiting for the thick vallisneria to arrive.
looking good, but too soon to tell if they'll be happy long term. DOWNSIDES: Flow is too fast/efficient. The trade off for the stirring up and cleaning is that the food is drawn away into the filter very quickly so I've had to turn off the pump while feeding the littlies which is a nuisance! and means i cant just drop in food and go away - or I forget to turn it back on. Hoping fish adapt and start to chase food a bit more.
Ladyred, I've pm'd you.
Cheers for now. Vicki

[taksan]

Let me get this straight .... you put 10 discus and 25 tetras into an uncycled tank :?:
:shock:

[Merrilyn]

Good feedback, thanks Vicki.

Didn't get a PM. Please resend.

[Proteus]

OK, sorry for being blunt but...

Rule #1: Never place Discus into an uncycled tank (preferable they need to go into a matured tank, which has had other fish in it for several weeks or months).

Rule #2: Never feed fish in a new tank environment for 24-48hrs = recipe for future disaster.

Rule #3: Discus love soft water - save your money, water hardness is ok as is.

You may find in days or weeks to come you may have a crash, i.e. pH, NH4-NH3, N02.

Personally I would be checking the water parameters daily to prevent a potential disaster.

[apalsson]

OK, sorry for being blunt but...

Rule #1: Never place Discus into an uncycled tank (preferable they need to go into a matured tank, which has had other fish in it for several weeks or months).


Being even more blunt - never put ANY fish in a tank on the first day!

[RichVic]

Hi there
No problems with people being blunt at all - It gives me the same rights(grin)
Would be good to stay on-topic though. Would be good to make sure that your rules actually apply/are needed/have been requested etc. Its frustrating when I have repeatedly asked about posting photo's and no body has managed a direct reply for example then I get pages of info I didn't ask for/need right now etc. Taksan, in my reality the "ideal" is simply not an option "everyday in everyway" and I respond as best I can. I'm cautious about posting anything because it seems to tangent on the irrelavencies, which would be okay if you communicated the reasons for your comments for the sake of the other readers at least - As it happens I didn't put the fish in on day 1 (thanks for your input too Proteus) They went in Night 4 after their dinner & I left lights off etc the next day and fed them the 2nd morning. I had prepared the new tank (bacteria starter kit, water from the old tank, driftwood & plants from the old tank and gravel from the old tank) The discus are cruising happily, not hidding/huddling etc. Finally, I think I've responded to everything after stating that i have
been checking all parameters daily for the past fortnight and done a few daily 10% changes for good measure etc. My main contamination worry was from the food which was being drawn away into the filter, especially
brine shrimp 7 blood worms
Thanks again

[RichVic]

Hello ladyred
I've mucked-up pm's before. When I hit the "submit" it goes into outbox one day and send the next. Not sure why? Would be good to solve this once and for all. Thanks

[Proteus]

As it happens I didn't put the fish in on day 1 (thanks for your input too Proteus) They went in Night 4 after their dinner & I left lights off etc the next day and fed them the 2nd morning.

My comment was based purely on your initial statement which read thta they had been added on Day 1.


I had prepared the new tank (bacteria starter kit, water from the old tank, driftwood & plants from the old tank and gravel from the old tank)

OK, whilst this is good, did you introduce some existing filter media to the new tank. The driftwood and plants wont do anything other than absorb some nitrates, and the gravel, whilst it will have some bacteri colonisation in it, it is not the right sort of 'good bio bugs' that you ideally need. That comes from existing filter media. Also, the old water only helps them acclimatise a little easier.

[Proteus]

Hello ladyred
I've mucked-up pm's before. When I hit the "submit" it goes into outbox one day and send the next. Not sure why? Would be good to solve this once and for all. Thanks

All PM's go straight to your Outbox and remain there until the recipient has read them, then it is storedin your Sent folder.

This is an easy was to see if someone has read your message, and whilst in your Outbox, it gives you a chance to make edits to your message before it is sent.

HTH

[taksan]

Hi there
N and I respond as best I can. I'm cautious about posting anything because it seems to tangent on the irrelavencies, which would be okay if you communicated the reasons for your comments for the sake of the other readers at least 10% changes for good measure etc. My main contamination worry was from the food which was being drawn away into the filter, especially
brine shrimp 7 blood worms


The way you post read it said you put fish into a new uncycled tank on day 1 which is hardly a irrelavency in fact its a recipe for 10 dead discus ! You didn't mention that you used old gravel and other cycled materials so therefore you sounded alarm bells.
Now some advice ....
10% a day proberbly isn't going to be enough because the bacteria is going to take 2 week to establish in the bioballs and your going to get a nasty ammo spike. I'd suggest doing 20% a day and testing daily and when so see that ammo spike do a immediate 50% WC then test the following day and if its still there another 50% WC until it settles. The use of Seachem prime can help greatly in cycling tanks because it detoxifies Ammonia, Nitrite AND Nitrate without destroying their ability to feed the relevant bacteria.
As for the food problem .... this is not a big issue if you do the following.
Buy some thick filter mat and cut it to exactly the whole size of the overflow tray on each compartment (ie: leave NO gaps so water can bypass it) and install it instead of the stuff thats in there now. Rinse it out in tank water daily and it will provide sufficient mechanical filtration to keep a huge spike at bay.

[Merrilyn]

Hi Vicki. Okay, first off let's get you sorted with posting photos. This is a question that's been asked many times, so now we have a very good link in the photo gallery forum on posting photos. If you need any more help after reading that, just give us a yell and one of us will talk you through it.

http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=130

Shrimp and bloodworms going straight into your filter is a problem, especially as they deteriorate so quickly, so I think while your filters are new, it's a good idea to turn them off while you feed. Perhaps a kitchen timer set for 20 minutes or so will help avoid a disaster by forgetting to turn them back on again. :wink:

The reason we address things that may seem irrelevant to the main topic , is we don't want a newbie reading this post thinking they can put their precious discus into a brand new tank, and not take special precautions. As you mentioned in your second post, you added gravel and driftwood from an existing tank. I don't think a newbie would realize the need for that.

Anyway, back on topic. I'm a bit concerned that the bacteria you've added to the tank won't be big enough to handle the ammonia from 10 large and 25 small fish. The nitrifying bacteria in a bio filter double at a known rate, and I think it's something like every ten days (can't find my notes at the moment) so it could posssibly be 40 days before your bio filters can handle the waste produced by the fish. During that time, you'll have to watch your ammonia level very carefully and do an immediate 50% water change at any sign of the ammonia spiking. Ammonia is very toxic to fish, any level of ammonia is not good, but discus are especially sensitive.

Taksan's suggestion of using Prime in the water is a good one. It will neutralize the toxic effects of ammonia and nitrite, while still allowing your tank to complete the cycle. Is there a chance you could pinch some used filter material out of one of the other tanks, but it must be one with a fairly decent fish load in it. That would give your cycle a kick start, but your tank is still going to go through a cycle, albeit a shorter cycle, even with that.

Just keep an eye on your levels. I'm sure you know what to do.

Good luck, and try posting some photos of your tank. If I can manage it, it can't be that difficult :lol: :lol: :lol:

[RichVic]

Hello again to all.
Sorry to confuse you all. I actually previewed that post before I sent it, and decided to add the "Day 1" so that you'd know I did this before the fish went in. I've had the tank for 16 days now. Tank got here Thursday, the fish went in on the weekend. I didn't add a day number as I thought it irrelevant to the equipment so to speak, but now see that my mention of "day 4" a bit later in the post, should have been clarified as four days after adding fish, but really Day 8 since set up, etc. Apologies to all and thanks again, you may only perceive frustration. but I do feel appreciation as well. My fish would all be dead without the help I've had from this forum as i was doing absolutely everything WRONG! To clarify - They're not large discus BTW, the four smallest were only 7-8 weeks old when I got them from a fellow forum member, about end of March. the two biggest bullies doubled in size, but I was measuring nose to tail to get the 8cm and later realised this was not correct. I have now bought two large discus (6") a week or so after the new tank and they're in the old tank - a part of the reason I moved the rest into the new tank etc.
Hospital tank is already in use and husband is using the quarantine tank. This hobby has blown out of all proportions in the 3 months or so, since we took it up! And if you think I'm struggling on my Discus learning curve- come watch my elegance with information technology !

- back to business -

Proteus - thanks for fixing my pm'ing problems. I didn't understand that they all went outbox - when I saw them there a day later, i tried to find a SEND option and ended up deleting the message, trying again, deleting again and sometimes picking up the phone where that was an option.

Ladyred - Thanks for your input I'll pm you again & not delete it this time.

Taksan - To tidy this thread before posting in "water" topics;
Not using hardner any longer , had a chat about it in other thread and stopped using it each water change. It's just that I have a tub full and it served the purpose of testing the new equipment. I forget to mention that last time. Next. I am already using Seachem Prime ( & have seachem tablets ready for planting the thick Vallisneria) Also I've been using the thick matting stuff all along and as per your suggestions - Staff in fishshop said that I can halve the thickness in about a month if I want to - see how it goes or go on to using batting? (stuff you buy at Spotlight & put into patchwork quilts etc.)

Am testing water param's daily. The first week was Zero's but I did a few 10% W/C anyway - just because its no longer a pain and it takes no time at all. - I open the cupboard and there's a hose which i take out to the garden and turn on the tank tap to empty. I have the barrel hooked up in the next cupboard and I just pump it in -Okay I confess I like doing W/C's these days and I am playing with my new toy, but also I'm reasoning that if I changed it before it needed it - that I'd be reducing the severity of the Ammo spike when it hit. I haven't had a big spike yet, it went off (zero) colour day 9 of the fish being added which is day 12 since the tank was filled. So I did a 20% change. It went off colour yesterday and i did another 20%. Will do 50%, as you recommend next change (tonight) and again tomorow if its not Zero. Got a bit of a dodgy ph thing happening again, but will not tangent here. Anyway thanks again
I'm going off to work out all about posting pic's - wish me luck and don't hold your breath :lol:
Vicki

[taksan]

Also I've been using the thick matting stuff all along and as per your suggestions - Staff in fishshop said that I can halve the thickness in about a month if I want to - see how it goes or go on to using batting? (stuff you buy at Spotlight & put into patchwork quilts etc.)


Vicki

Nah don't halve it leave it thick just rinse it in tank water daily (takes 5 mins) and it will do wonders for lowering your ammo spike when it comes.
Buy nothing but proper thick blue filter matting the spotlight stuff can be treated with chemicals that will kill your fish and it clogs up too much and too quickly.