Naming conventions for apistogramma's

[parkap]

Hi All,

I'm still way at the bottom of the learning curve when it comes to apistogrammas, so this might seem a very basic question, but I haven't seen an explanation of this yet.

Basically, what's the difference between the following naming conventions:
Apistogramma xxxx
Apistogramma sp. xxxx
Apistogramma cf. xxxx, eg. Apistograma cf. viejita "Rio Pebas"

I've seen the same term used to describe a apistogramma's but under the different naming convention. For example, and I'm making these up so don't get annoyed if because they're wrong and make no sense:

Apistogramma Trifasciata "Macliensis" versus
Apistogramma sp. Macliensis.

The main reuse of the describing term I see used is when the territory a species of apistogramma comes from, eg. "tefe", is used simply as sp. "tefe" without the species actually being names, eg: (again I'm making this up)
Apistogramma Agazissii "Tefe" versus
Apistogramma sp. Tefe.

Does this simply mean the actual species hasn't been categorised yet but this apistogramma comes from that area? If so, I'd have thought such a term under the sp. usage could literally be used to describe numerous different types of apistogramma.

And I've no idea what the cf. one is for.

Peter.

[kevkoi]

Hah.. ok...

Ok, we all know that scientific names consist of the "Genus" name (Apistogramma) and followed by the "Species" name (agassizi). The propper naming is that the Genus should start with a capital letter, and the species name in lower case.

So:
Apistogramma agassizi = correct
Apistogramma Agassizi = incorrect

Next, sometimes a certain fish has not been propperly given it's due species name, hence the species part of the name is left as "sp." (short for species. - un-named). Hence, Apistogramma sp. "---"
(There's not a lot of money for science to study little fish like apistogramma u know.)

These yet to be named fish usually come attached with some form of common identification such as (usually), location of collection and an identifying characteristic if there are 2 variants in the same river for instance.
Hence: Apistogramma sp. "Rio Mamore red tail"

In the case of cf./aff., it just literally means "similar to" the documented specimen, but we are still unsure because there are sligth differences visually with the described specimen.
So, hence we have: Apistogramma cf. juruensis "Black Chin". (It looks like a juruensis, but we're not sure, and it has a black chin.)

Comprendo? Taxonomy.... even I don't get it. :lol:

[parkap]

Thanks Kev, that's cleared a lot up. :D

I suppose I'd be cast into the never-ending levels of the underworld if I were to, for example, try to breed A. agazissi "xxxx" with an A. cf. agazissii?

So when are you going to organise an expedition for hobbyist to South America to check out where these little guys actually come from? 8-)

Regards,
Peter.

[kevkoi]

Oh and to complicate matters further... sometimes, a famous Apistogramma guy decides to tentatively name the fish after himself....

So, we get things like:

Apistogramma sp. "Wilhelmi"

This fish has 2 variations... one has a red tail and the other has a black tail, so sometimes we see: Apistogramma sp "Wilhelmi red" and Apistogramma sp "Wilhemi".

Then there are OTHER ppl who refuse to accept this name and instead name it after the river location they are from and believes that this fish is similar to the agassizi group, so we have:

Apistogramma cf.agassizi "Rio Abacaxi" and "Rio Abacaxi red".

So, essentially:

Apistogramma wilhelmi (not official)
Apistogramma sp. "Wilhelmi" and "Wilhelmi red"
Apistogramma sp "Rio Abacaxi" and "Rio Abacaxi red"
Apistogramma agassizi "Rio Abacaxi" and "Rio Abacaxi red"

........ are all the same fish. :lol:

[Th0mas]

Peter,

Here's from what I understand (may not be totally correct).

Firstly the name of a species is ALWAYS lowercase. Hence Apistogramma agassizi/panduro/bitaeniate etc will always be lower case as convention.

Those with the sp. are already classified as species, but aren't formally named (I think).

And finally the one with cf, these are yet to be classified as species and only grouped them as possible variant to a species.

As in your example for trifasciata "Macliensis" and agassizi "Tefe", these are variant of the species.

Here's a link to a similar discussion in thekrib site:

http://www.thekrib.com/Apisto/latin.html

As for apistogramma macliensis - well it is a bit of a mess at the moment. Take a read at this link: http://www.thekrib.com/Apisto/A-maciliensis.html

Thomas.

[kevkoi]

Heck, I haven't even been on one yet... :lol: There's suppose to be one near the end of this year going into Brazil (Mostly a discus expedition). Was itching to go....

Oh, and A.trifasciata "macilensis"..... oh what a mess- trully. :?

I recently got sent a batch from Germany labelled as A.trifasciata "guapore high fin red", looks bloody the same to me!!

Oh well, off to separate all the fish labelled "Guapore red" from my supposed population of A.trifasciata "maciliensis"..... :roll:

:)

[Th0mas]

Looks like Kev beat me to the submit button.....

:oops:

Oh well, he did answer most if not all the questions.

Thomas.

[Th0mas]

Have heard colleage went there for a sight seeing trip, but I wouldn't go as the Australian regulation requires all sort of shots to be taken (yellow fever, etc) before you're clear to go, otherwise you may not allow to come back.

Anyhow, I hate needles :cry:

Thomas.

[parkap]

Thanks Thomas and Kev. Some really great information here. Hopefully others have found it useful as well. It's definitely made things clearer for me.

I'll leave Kev to organise the "Apistogramma Sight Seeing Tour of South America - 2007". Let us know how you go Kev... :P

[Reillin]

My last understanding of naming conventions is that you cannot name a fish after yourself.

However you can name a fish after anyone else but yourself. So those explorers and collectors name a fish after their best mate and their best mate does the same for them. All a conspiracy in my views. Forget about petrol price fixing, lets get these guys!!! Lol.

Cheers,
Vien.

[steph]

Yeah Vien, that was my understanding too, very bad form to name something after yourself. WHich is probably why wilhemi is not a recognised name by some.

Trying to breed a A. agassizi and A cf agasszi would MOST LIKELY end in tears and frustration and get you cast into the nether world by the hobby. :D Unfortunately we dont have a big enough interest ? in Apistos to see many variants of the same species maintained in Australia. Hence why most of the locally bred A agasizzi are no locality or jsut he 'red gold' variant.

From a hobby point of view if you dont have a definate on a locality then just use the species name.

If you say put your female A agassiz "no name" with a male A. agasizzi "santarem" you can only sell fry as A. agasizzi

Clear as mud ??

Steph

[kevkoi]

Steph, I'd cringe if someone did the A.agassizi "Santarem" x A.agassizi "No name". :?

[steph]

Me too Kev but I see it happening.

Thats the one problem I see with only 1 or 2 pairs of a species or locality coming into the country. One death and the pair is not breedable and in frustration of not being able to get a suitable partner someone may use a partner from a different or noname locality.

This particularly applies to fish like A agasizzi or A cacatoides.

Steph

[Th0mas]

That's precisely the reason why when I take in some apisto, the norm is to obtain two pairs to safe guard my investment.

Bugger only a pair is left on those I reserved. Hopefully others are willing to swap in future.

Thomas.

[fishgeek]

why are you guys against mixing different sub populations of the same species?
or am i missing something there

are you specifically talking about tefe in which hybridisation experiements have already been used to help support the hypothesis that it may actually be a seperate species to agassizi or are you just using tefe as an example

[kevkoi]

I think the point is that you will lose the subtle differences between populations.

Case in point for instance; A.agassizi "Santarem" x A.agassizi "Peru Flemengo"..... These are 2 populations which are separated by GREAT DISTANCES, and would never meet but for the hand of man. One comes from Brazil, the other from Peru.

There are subtle differences between one population with another, and by breeding these 2 together, you will be diluting both, and muddling up everything.

In the end, what you get will be offspring that you cannot call one or the other so u will most likely be calling them only A.agassizi. This would dilute the purity of each sub-species in the hobby.

As far as we can, if there is a location attached to the fish, we should attempt to do the right thing and keep the breeding line separate from other.

[fishgeek]

at present i dont think we know enough to have a strong stance on mixing fish that are named in so many wonderful and often confusing ways

when fish are named after a collection station, or river or company or just plain old made up names

if they are the same species(and like i said we are not sure enough on some species especially when it comes to the aggie group) then it doesnt matter .. it's a bit like suggesting different coloured homosapiens shouldn't mix

well actually no it isnt .. but same species mix's are ok in my book
tefe though could be a different fish to aggassiz

colour morphs though , i dont see why they cant be mixed
i feel that the nomecalture has way too many embellishments and plain old aggie is enough
yes maybe you would want to add a colour after it

i have read somewhere that prehaps most of the tefe in aquariums are thought to be hybrids anyway
and i think in romers book he spoke about deformities occuring in different strains of aggie being crossed, i dont know enough nor have the romer book to see that that was deformity due to the cross or deformity that could happen in any breeding

just thoughts
andrew

[Reillin]

On that note, my first lot of A. panduro F0 from SLS had no location. Can you help me with that Kevin?

Cheers,
Vien.

[kevkoi]

There's never been a location variation on A.panduro on any suppliers list.