The experience with wilds

[Ginko]

Many years ago I started with Discus just for joke, I had many breeds but I never found someone to share my experience and I gave away everything becouse too lonely.
Now with internet information is different.
On october I visited a forum, just to see some pic of the King, and I saw heckels...the exciting thing was that it is considered too difficult: that's why I thought immediately it will be mine :D :D :D
The beginning was with the heckels that you may see on "welcome", but when I bought them they were a beat different. Some pic :wink:

[Ginko]

After two months...

[Ginko]

last days in the old tank

[sammigold]

Wow!!! They are amazing.... You have done a fantastic job there....

[Ginko]

...and now :D :D
The difference with the olt tank: bigger, ph about 4,9-5 cond. 100 microsiemens.
No many plants.
I have observed a lot the behaviour of wild discus, and they don't feel confortable in an ambient full of green...they mostly prefer the brown of roots, of water and some floating plant (ceratopteris thalictroides, lemna minor)just to give less light and security to the group.

Always sorry for my bad english :oops: :oops:

[Ginko]

Royal blu I've bought two weeks ago was as you see...
If I can tonight I take some other pic to show the difference and the sparkling colours in an acid ambient-

[Merrilyn]

Salvo your fish are magnificent, and you have done a wonderful job of raising them.

A very warm welcome to to the forum. We are always delighted to see wild discus.

And you english is excellent, so please don't worry.

[Ben]

Your discus are absolutely marvellous Ginko!

You should be very proud of them, as they look stunning and very healthy!

Regards
Ben

[Ginko]

:D :D Just hope that my discus think the same of me when I'm close to them :shock: :shock:

[OscarManAlpha]

Nice discus Salvo,

And you have a good sense of humor as well.

I have my discus in a heavily planted tank and after seeing
your setup, I want to put angels in the heavily planted tank.

I will put the discus into a tank like yours.

Mine are not wild though, one day I would like to get some wilds.

Cheers,

Mark

[vince]

mate, your fish is magnificent.

How big is your tank?
What water do you use?
How thick is your sand base, how do you clean it?

Many thanx

vince

[nicholas76]

Simply stunning!


please tell us how big that tank is

[Ginko]

mate, your fish is magnificent.

How big is your tank?
What water do you use?
How thick is your sand base, how do you clean it?

Many thanx

vince
The tank is about 300 lt, water is very sweet, about 100, 110 microsiemens, ph about 5,5 (I don't want to get it less it's too dangerous if I'm out for work) and I use an external filter for the new water charget with only torb.
For the tank 2 filters, 1 internal, only with siporax, 1 external, eheim, with siporax and water cross it very slowly..doing it the no3 are always low. Tempareture now 30° but with the time I'll take at maximum 28°. It depends from discus health. The sand is like Rio negro sand, (it was) white and like powder, and discus appreciate a lot.
To clean it is a trouble :oops: :oops: but usually it's always clean.
Always sorry: is strange to be unable to find correct words to express it :oops: :oops:

[nicholas76]

Salvo

thanks you for making an effort to show us your fish.

Please feel free to post as many pictures as you want.


Can you tell me the actual size dimensions of that tank? Also did you buy that sand it looks fantastic!

Do you also use special lights?

[Ginko]

The size is about 121 cm X 50 X 60.
The sand is 5 cm in the highest point.
The lights are Dennerle: behind a light neon dennerle "congo light" for 4.000 kelvin and front a 38w for 6.000 kelvin, trocal de luxe amazon day.
The best couple of lights for plants and discus that usually hate the daylight.
The water is simply crystal-brown.

[RJ_Archer]

where do u get wild caughts from?

[nicholas76]

Thanks Salvo!!

it appears you have gone to great trouble to setup this lovely tank

more photos please!!!

can you doa whole tank shot? maybe some equipemnt photos?

thanks

[vince]

thanks mate for your information.

May i ask that how do you prepare the water?

Use RO mix with Tap water?

Do you ues peat to make the water brownish?


Sorry for keep asking questions. I really think your fish are

absolutely great looking.

many thanx

vince

[Crocky]

Salvo
I'm lost for words.
All I can say is keep the pics coming.

Brad

[Katie]

Wow I agree! Deffinately drool worthy fish.
Please keep the pictures comming.

I need a towel to wipe the drool off my keyboard!

[Ginko]

Promised that I will try to take pics of any detail.
Too many (lovely) questions :oops: :oops: and I'm too slow to find and write in english.
But I didn't espect your appreciated interest for my kings.
But your wish is a command :lol:
Anyway UV lamp, RO for 90% ,torb(not in the tank filter, special salts, and the most important thing is that before I use water for changes I wait for 3/4 days.
They hate new water, and they show it immediately. Shy and scared.
If I put new water it has to be perfectly the same of water tank: PH, microsiemens and temperature.If I do it (and I must) they pick me on my arms during the water change, maybe they think I'm something to eat (poor them, I'm absolutely toxic :roll: :roll: )
Here is some pic of part of equipment.

[Ginko]

sorry...forgot some pic

[Ginko]

last pics.

[vince]

oh...mate!

You really got all the top gears.

None of your dry food is available in Australia except the Tetra pro.

I would really like to try the tetra prima one day.

anyway, keep your amazing pics coming.

Oh.....by the way, do you use beef heart as well to feed your discus?

Have a lovely day! ...and say hi to your "Kings" haha....


vince

[Ginko]

Hi Vince, thanks for you kind words :P
May be you don't find the other foods but you have foods that we don't have.
All foods I use for them are basically vegetables, spirulina (?) and "gammarus".
I give to them my heart, not hart of beef :D :D
However it is just becouse, i guess, in Amazonic rivers they don't use to see heart of beef swimming, so I try to do things close to their habits. :shock:
I used beef heart, not without problems, for water and for them.

[vince]

haha....mate you really got the sense of humer

What an answer!!

I also checked out the website link on your post.

I recognised they were all in Italian. It did not matter. I saw all the amazing pics of wild discus.

Obviously, wild discus is quite popular in Europe.

vince

[Squid]

Well done Ginko - great to see photos of wild fish. They are my favourite!! as most in this forum know. What you've done here is great because you have demonstrated that if you 'create' the Amazon in a large tank, then Heckels and other wild discus are easy to keep and breed. I especially love your little Green discus (female??). My Wild Greens are breeding at the moment. Also - for people on this forum. Did you notice Ginko said that his discus dislike water changes!!!! I was just discussing this last week in the 'discus keeping 101' forum. Good filtration=less water changes=more stable fishes and more stable environment.

Once again Ginko - well done on creating a little bit of Amazonia using good filtration techniques. Hope you get some fry soon

Squid

[Ginko]

Good.
Low and big filtration. First of all :wink:

[DR.V]

Thats a really great setup Ginko. I love your sense of humor.

[OscarManAlpha]

Ginko you are makeing us all so happy with the photo's......

Keep them coming never enough mate.........

Please send more and more and more fantastic.....

WOW.......


Cheers,

Mark

[Ginko]

haha....mate you really got the sense of humer

What an answer!!

I also checked out the website link on your post.

I recognised they were all in Italian. It did not matter. I saw all the amazing pics of wild discus.

Obviously, wild discus is quite popular in Europe.

vinceWild discus are popular, but considered very difficult.
That's why I love them, but I guess is more difficult to understand human behaviour.
Wilds have lots of cominicative signs :wink:
I cant forget that they come from great rivers..(and I'm sorry for), just for our selfish will :cry:
Anyway see here too...the title is "Discus faces" "Facce di discus", and You'll enjoy http://www.discuspassion.it/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=493

Cheers

[vince]

To Ginko:

Oh...my......those amzing pictures not only shows nice fish, but also shows the highly skilled photographing strategy.

Mate, just a question: How often do you do water changes and what % do you do?

Yes, i agree good filteration is essential for wild discus tanks.

I am using a fuid bed filter connect to my cannister. Hope that boost my filteration capacity.

vince

[vince]

to Squid:

hello, mate. Just wondering when you say good filteration, do you have any specific filteration set up to recommend?

I suppose good filteration not only get rid of Ammonia, Nitrates, but also control the nitrates under 5. Am i right?

I am thinking of using a large cannister, for example a eheim classic 2217 on a 3 foot by 18'' by 20'' tank (around 180 L water). But i connect it to a 11w UV, a big fuild bed filter, and one aquamedic phosphate reactor(pc shows below), but Instead of using phosphate remover resin, i replace it with seachem de*nitrate. i will adjust the reactor it to a very slow passing rate.

With all the connections i have, the flow rate of oversized cannister filter is reduced to a reasonable level for the 3 foot tank.

I am only on thinking stage. please give advise.

many thnx

[Ginko]

A pleasure to answer :wink:
I've used seachem products for phos, but results good to remove them, and at the same time the ph grew from 5,02 to 6,00.
When you have a big quantity of phos in water you have to think that ph value is strictly connected to it too...so be careful when you intend to remove totally it :wink: Of course it's just my experience, nothing else.
Better if you control it making water changes little and often.
It is too delicate the ionic composition of discus tank, and using resins you know what you erase, but you don't know what are you going to get into the water.
When I describe a good filtration I mean big filters, for a biological work, and if I have always more than one filter in the tanks with discus is becouse I need to have a normal filtration (example in filter A) and slow filtration (example in filter B).
I always use to put one of the 2 exits on the film of water (example the pump of low filtration). Making this all gas come away and water is always biologically ok.
Sometime it isn't oxygen missing the problem of health of discus, but gas, product of filter, that usually are present in water in big quantity.
But we ignore it becouse we see ph going down, and it's a mistake.
Sorry if it's difficult to explain, but a personal suggestion is to use big filters, oversized, without anti---nothing :shock: :shock:
If you didn't understand something please tell me. :wink:

[Squid]

Hi again Ginko and Vince - I'm gonna have a shot at a filter system using 2 filters. Up until now, I've always used a 'super filter' which is basically another tank with similar water volume to the main tank. Seems to work OK, but I want to have a go like yours. Vince, the fluidised bed filters are good value and very effective. As Ginko said - removing too much phos via filtration can affect pH directly (H2PO4 is phosphoric acid). I do use a Phosphate reactor in my Black water tanks though. Your eheim will keep the water quality at its best but will not remove Nitrate (NO3). With the EHEIM, you may not need the fluidised bed filter. Also - go to the APW site (see classifieds forum) and think about buying a nitrate reductor filter. It is basically an anaerobic filter system, that uses anaerobic bacteria (like those in the mud on the bottom of a swamp) to covert NO3 to O2 and N2 gases. They seem to work a bit better in the marine environment but as lone as you feed the bacteria (using a sulphur based tablet), then they do all right. You can only have a go - but if you do water changes often, then its better to not have one of these filters anyway.

[Ginko]

Well,
It's a new old story the low filter based on anaerobic bacters :wink:
I had a duscussion long lots of pages, speaking about a filter that makes this "job", and a famous guy, Poldo, made a filter dedicating to it all time, leaving forum and internet (and I miss his precious sugggestions).
You see here some pic http://www.discuspassion.it/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=863
The discussion I had were very very long, hard and difficult :shock: :shock:
Someone that use this optional filtration tells that it isn't necessary make changes for long time, months, and th only thing that you have to do is put water when it's vaporized.
I trust in this filtration, based on muds, anaerobia bacters and (in the last part of filter a stone area) a low filtration.
The questions that I had were two: if the pump doesn't work accidentally for , sample, a temporary blackout and so on...all muds finish....where? :oops: :oops: :oops: (you know it Squid).
And another doubt: the bacteric charge (not aerobic, not anaerobic but the bacters in total) how can it be removed, putted in a low charge? With water change I guess.
So eventually I think that it's easier to have the denitration fenomenon as a casual event (I had lots of time, and I'm trying to have it now too...but time is needed), and it could be a little complicated to let a filter with mud work without complications and a beat dangerous (solfidric acid), even if you have to be unlucky...but it isn't a remote option :oops:
I appreciate work of people that studies on it, but tanks ar closed, and unfortunately they depend from us :cry:

[Squid]

Hi Ginko - I have seen filters that use muds before. Very intensive and hard to maintain. The ones I use have an artificial substrate instead of muds. The substrates look like 'bioballs' but have a sulphur food added to them. They look like they are made of wood? or something. If they are working very hard (too much nitrate in the water), you have to feed them. There is an internal motor to circulate the anaerobic water in the filter chamber. Max flow rate is 1 liter per hour. Very slow but works fine.
I can send photos if you want.

Squid

[vince]

well....very technical information, guys.

I suppose with less water changes, fish will definitely benefit.

But I still have two questions:

1, how do you get rid of the phosphat? Iron based phosphat remover may work better? I guess if you have PH controller and CO2 injection, you should be able to overcome the fluctuation of PH, right?

2, with pure CO2 injecting into the tank (without plants) to Mainten a stable PH. How about oxegen level. Do fish get enough oxgen in the water? I do not like puting in an airstone, that will decrease the solubility of the CO2 ...

a bit confusing here.

One more thing, do you use discus trace element (eg, seachem discus trace)? Does anyone have a water analysis of the black water in Amozone? Is there any trace element in their original living environment?

Please give advise.

with the information on filtertion. I reckon it is a good topic, maybe on this forum, the web minister can make a specific discussing topic on filteration. As it is one of the most technical problems for discus keeping. If anyone can achieve less water change, that saves water for our environment as well. After all Australia is a try country. I guess many other country suffers from the dryness too.

vince

[Ginko]

Hi Ginko - I have seen filters that use muds before. Very intensive and hard to maintain. The ones I use have an artificial substrate instead of muds. The substrates look like 'bioballs' but have a sulphur food added to them. They look like they are made of wood? or something. If they are working very hard (too much nitrate in the water), you have to feed them. There is an internal motor to circulate the anaerobic water in the filter chamber. Max flow rate is 1 liter per hour. Very slow but works fine.
I can send photos if you want.

SquidPlease, Squid :oops:
If you really can do it :wink: :wink:

[Ginko]

well....very technical information, guys.

I suppose with less water changes, fish will definitely benefit.

But I still have two questions:

1, how do you get rid of the phosphat? Iron based phosphat remover may work better? I guess if you have PH controller and CO2 injection, you should be able to overcome the fluctuation of PH, right?

2, with pure CO2 injecting into the tank (without plants) to Mainten a stable PH. How about oxegen level. Do fish get enough oxgen in the water? I do not like puting in an airstone, that will decrease the solubility of the CO2 ...

a bit confusing here.

One more thing, do you use discus trace element (eg, seachem discus trace)? Does anyone have a water analysis of the black water in Amozone? Is there any trace element in their original living environment?

Please give advise.

with the information on filtertion. I reckon it is a good topic, maybe on this forum, the web minister can make a specific discussing topic on filteration. As it is one of the most technical problems for discus keeping. If anyone can achieve less water change, that saves water for our environment as well. After all Australia is a try country. I guess many other country suffers from the dryness too.

vinceHi dear,
Part of your questions were my questions :(
First of all it's a great mistake use the co2 without plants, just to see ph under 7. The rescue is great.
See file I've attached hoping that you can understand...it's stupid how we italian translate latin words and all the world use latin LANG. as universal scientific language :evil:
However hope you understand anyway..it isn't difficult-
I'm interested and studying the ionic composition for wilds, so I can't be sure that it is a good idea to create the same ambient for hibrid.
You see iron (fe), alluminium (al), aNd magnesium are completely different in quantity from european waters.
So, basically I use R.o exaple 30 lt and tap water 3 lt.
I add "Discus essential" Kent and not Seachem, too strong and wrong in composition (that's my experience) :wink:
Regarding the other questions as I told You up not many people answered sufficiently to convince me that it works well :oops: Maybe I'm too curious for them, or questions too hard, and you know that all tests we have available are not detailed as scientific lab (I'm sorry), and the final conclusion was always: it works and stop :roll: :roll:
I prefer to make changes as I do, and the best test are my discus :wink:
I observe them, and I see when it's time to change water and put some element into the water, watching plants, yellow leaves, alghes and so on...
The ph is in lost of amazon areas is very very much low..but basically it is the weater that allow the ph so hard.
If you watch attemptly the tab you see different ph, but conductivity is always low.

[stonedavid]

Great tank set up and great fish Salvo, your new tank looks as if you have set it up straight from the amazon amazon.
Pete

[vince]

hey, ginko:

What an effort. the table is great. Unfortunately i hardly understand any of the values....hehe.. :roll:

I understand RO water contains very little oxgen.

How do you mainten the oxgen level in your tank? an airstone, maybe?


vince

[Ginko]

I use to calculate the floating water made by pump (it's useful to expulse the gases coming from filter) and an "oxydator", see here some detail http://www.malawicichlidhomepage.com/aquainfo/oxydator.html
Once I had lots of plants, but now it's different, and oxygen is needed not only for fishes, but mostly for filter.
Vince, I want to take a beat mor time and I will translate the table for you :wink:

[Ginko]

P.s. no airstone. Never. It's for tank as an atomic bomb :roll: :roll:

[vince]

Thanks Ginko:

Have you a got a full shot of your tank?

I would really like to see that. The oxgen generator you mentioned looks great. just wondering is that nessessary?

I am wondering if I increase the flow on the surface (eg, use a powful internal filter positioned very close to the surface). That might increase the oxgen level.

and before you do the water change you can place a airstone in the water container (where you prepare the water).

What do you think?

[Squid]

Good idea on the oxygenator Ginko. For those that weren't aware, the biofilters use a enormous load of oxygen to convert NH4 (ammonia) to NO3 (nitrate). If you have a very heavy bioload and a lot of NH4 being produced, then your biofilter, especially canister types, use up a lot of that oxygen available - then spit it back into your tank! Trickle type filters dont have this problem as they add a little air to the water while spraying onto the media. For those that dont believe the oxygen usage of a normal biofilter would be similar to theoxygen usage of the fish its filtering from. This is why my water goes into a sump where its foam fractionated (and therefore aerated) before hitting the filter. It really ups the filtration efficiency.

An airstone in the water will most definitely stop Heckels breeding. I've had this problem before, as they really dont like turbulence or noise. Just think of where they come from.

[vince]

I am wondering if you have a oxgenator in the cannister filter.

There is going to be noise , isn't it?

[Ginko]

Hi guys,
How are U all???
Time is gone and I have new pics to show you.
I've spoken so long about you to the users of my forum, and it could be a good sign if some of you try to create an account and post some picture on my portal :D :D
The section for you is "Off topic e presentazioni", but lots of guys are curious to see your tanks, wich I described for long time.
All speaks english, and I wait for you all :shock: :shock:
Ok, now some new picture:

[Ginko]

...and more :D
Ops, my msn contact: salvofranchi@hotmail.com if You need any suggestion for wilds.

[Ginko]

more

[Ginko]

..more :oops:

[Ginko]

others..

[Ginko]

last pictures-

Waiting for you on http://www.discuspassion.it/forum.

My name is Tatore, moderator :wink:

[vince]

Ginko:

Absollutely beautiful fish as usual!!

I would love to post pics on your forum.

I will arrange that later.

Have you put some new fish into your tank?

How many fish now?

You are always welcome to this forum.^^

vince

[taksan]

Oh Gino ..... those fish are simply beautiful
Fantastic !

[Cuong]

Awesome looking fish! Well done on the fish and tank :o

[vince]

Hey, Ginko:

Forgot to ask you that have you got a full shot of your tank.

Would love to see that!

thanx

vince

[rytis]

something about these discus or the tank different then all the rest i've seen, not sure what

[Ginko]

They're still the same with an...ehm heckel more :oops: :oops:

[Merrilyn]

Your tank is really beautiful. You have inspired me to change one of my tanks to look similar to yours.

[Ginko]

Oh, Lady :oops: :oops:
Something special to read your words.
If I can help you I'll be here.
An invitation to you too to log in on my forum and speak about your experience, portal and fishes.
We all love different experiences and guys that post will be very grateful to you cause you're a very good moderator :wink:
However I'll read here your questions (if you need a help, of course).

Thank You for your attention :wink:

[marg]

They certainly are beautiful Ginko.

You should be very proud of them.

Regards,

Marg.

[Ginko]

Thanks, Marg.
Thank You all..
I'm curious and I ask You all: why don't you use to have wilds in your tanks? Not easy to find or simply not the best?
Just curiosity :wink:

[goldenpigeon]

hey Ginko,
stunning tank and fish mate!!!

we dont have wilds because they cost us a fortune. usually a lot of the wilds that come in are poor quality.

cheers
David

[vince]

goldenpigeon:

You are absolutely right. I have just spoken to George (from G & S) this afternoon. He told me that we can only get hold of the ones shipped from South America to Germany and then shiped again to Australia, the freight cost is way too high for good fish. (the logic behind is no such trade agreement between South America and Australia yet!!)

I would love to keep wild fish....but $$$ is a bit of problem.


vince

[Ginko]

The greatest problem is the travel for fishes..I use to buy them just arrived..and when I see them in plastic bags,..my God, it's a shame.
I guess You're right, they anyway travel around Europe, Germany. But Germany is closer to Italy.
The shipper never say where they come from, of course.
But they don't look discus, they don't look to be alive..after 3 days I see them a beat alive, just becouse Discus is stronger than we say..

[goldenpigeon]

hey vince,
yes they are extremely expensive. if you wanted wilds you would be better off saving up for a fair while then buying bout 50 or so (usually cheaper to buy in bulk) then sell off what you dont want and breed them if you can. expensive but could be worth it in the long run ;)

[discusjim]

GREAT FISH!!!
Nothing better then wild discus. The quality in australia is not as good as in europe. I had wild discus in holland, if i could get good quality i would again. Good work, keep it up.
Jim

[Ginko]

Thanks Jim.
Holland and Germany are top level with wilds.
You don't find without lots of money wilds of value.
The same money that I prefer to spend to give to them the best I find .
If you have any picture I'm curious to see them.

[vince]

hey, Ginko:

Really nice full shot of your tank.

Have you got some bleeding heart tetras in your tank?

How come they are not showing their best colour? I thought in your tank they should be very happy.

Are they flame back beeding heart tetra? wild caught?

vince

[Darth_discus]

I love your tank and fish ginko

your tank is great and so are the fish :D

All the best for your Discus ginko

[Merrilyn]

Salvo, I have tried to register on your forum, but unfortunately I don't speak Italian. It seems I have un problema.

Would you please have a look for me and explain what I need to do to register.

Thankyou.

[Brilliant]

Salvo,
Magnificent!
It is good to see someone sharing information like yourself. I have enjoyed viewing the pictures and reading your posts.

Your fish are absolutely wonderful looking. :)

[Ginko]

Salvo, I have tried to register on your forum, but unfortunately I don't speak Italian. It seems I have un problema.

Would you please have a look for me and explain what I need to do to register.

Thankyou.Informazioni di Base
* Nome Utente: "name user (lady red)
* Password:
* Riscrivi Password: (rewrite password)
* Nome: (name)
* Cognome: (last name)
Città: (city)
Provincia: (select "estero")
Età: (age)
Sesso: Non specificato Uomo (male) Donna (female)
Firma: (here you can put something like the web-site link or something else)


Inserisci Firma(do you the sign in your messages?)
nei Messaggi?: Si No
box della firma
selezionato di default?: Si No
Mostra
Utenti Attivi: Si No (show active users)
Conferma Registrazione Anti SPAM (confirm registration digiting the numbers you see down)
Il tuo codice di registrazione è univoco
Se non dovessi vedere i numeri, o riscontri problemi contatta l'Amministratore del Forum.


Conferma Codice di Registrazione
Per evitare che programmi di Spam rilevino il tuo indirizzo di mail inserisci il codice di 6 cifre che vedi sopra.
Nota: Sono solo numeri se visualizzi '0' inserisci il numero e non la lettera dell'alfabeto 'O'.
*

Than "invia", that means "send"

Sorry for waiting, but I didn't find the time
It will be a dream to see all you on my forum :oops: :oops: