White eggs all the time

[Jeroen]

Hello everybody,


I am still having the same problem...allready for months....white eggs.
I have written before about this issue and I still didn't solve it.

By now I have 6 different couples and the layed several of times eggs.
Somehow between the 24 and 40 hours all eggs turn into white.

I have slowdown the water circulation, I have put airsstones to the biological filter, I have lowered the PH to 6.8 (kh =3, and Us = 215 (microsiemens))
2 tanks had a bottom outlet to filter, I changed this to top, so it would suck from the top

I have tried it also with a lower Us by using a part of osmoses water

But nothing of all that helpes...very sometimes when I protect the eggs so the couple won't eat them there is like 4 to 6 eggs that come out, so they are indead couples.

There couples are in several different tanks with different filter set up's

I am starting to lose faith here, anybody who can help me out, cause I am 200% sure by now that there is something wrong with the watervalues and not by the couples, there is something wrong woth the water/int the tanks and that is the reason the couples can not virtulize the eggs.values...the big question mark is WHAT

Ps I live in the netherlands

To make this story a little more complicated...a friend who lives 350 meters away from here had one nest after another :-S

I have copied basicly all settings he has (filter methode, filter material, circulation speed of water....)
He uses plain tapwater...the tapwater overhere has a high quality and must be wonderfull for breeding and keeping discus

The only thing what is different now that his tanks are on the bottom floor of the house and mine are on the second floor...I do not believe that this makes a difference does it ?


PLEASE....help me out, I have so many beautiful discus....everything prepared but it still doesn't come

[rytis]

i suspect bad males


i have 2 pairs of angel fishes in my 125g which have all 4 spawned twice simultaneously: both times one pairs eggs were mostly white other pairs all good... in the same tank same time....

[Jeroen]

Hi Rytis,


one bad male, two bad male...ok, three bad male maybe
6 bad males....no way, I can not believe that.
Besides that, 4 of the couples had fry before (when they were somewhere else)

It must be the water...but what ?

Jeroen

[aquafrogstuff]

Jeroen,

Can you tell us a bit more about:-
1. What are you feeding them and how often;
2. How often are you doing water changes;
3. How long have the sponge filters been established;
4. Do you have any photos of the fish. Maybe we can check their condition;
5. What is the water temp on average

Dwayne

[nicholas76]

Im actually interested in the age of your fish and whether or not they have spawned for others in the past.

Sounds like these fish have a dose of juvenile inexperience.

on another hand ....
How about this for a trial run( just to make sure ). Can you give a pair to that person down the road and see if they spawn for him??

i wonder what the result will be.

[jim from sydney]

Im actually interested in the age of your fish and whether or not they have spawned for others in the past.

Sounds like these fish have a dose of juvenile inexperience.

on another hand ....
How about this for a trial run( just to make sure ). Can you give a pair to that person down the road and see if they spawn for him??

i wonder what the result will be.

Joroen......i used to live in Rotterdam and Groningen and the water quality varies almost from "wijk tot wijk"........i would try the same as Nicholas suggested.....can you swap some fish with your friend and see what happens??????? Jim

[Jeroen]

Hi Aquafrogstuff, Nicholas and Jim, I will try to answer all questions

Jeroen,


I feed all the discus very various, from beefheart to bloodworms, shrimps, artemia, krill etc....I feed the discus aprox 3 a 4 times a day

I clean up the bottom each day and that way I change 20% daily

Two of the tanks have sponges over 5 months now, they have been start up with some bacterie culture from a bottle
The other tanks do run on a 200 liter biological filter filled with sponge and denilit, also there is a bypass over a 5 watt UV

Pics...sure
She http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6115&highlight=
Him sorry not available

Other 4 couples
http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5921&highlight=

Water temperature is around 30 Celsius...I have trried allready a little higher and little lower

I do not know the age of all the fish, but they are between 1.5 and 3.5 years old...no older, no younger.

4 of the couples are expirencied: they had fry before (I have seen proof (pics and video))

Trial run idea is great, but this friend is gonna stop, maybe a reverse trial run will work out, I have bought his whole setup (13 tanks)
He lives only a gfew hundred meters away and I also bought one of his couples who had many succes overhere.
I will transport the biological filter in matters of a few minutes and also 100 liters of water (big buggets)

So the whole setup, incl couple, incl bacterie culture wil run here over a few days
If his couple will develop same problems then is for sure someting wrong with my tapwater.

Jim great idea, but it has to be a reverse methode, cause he's gonna quit.

Thanks for all sugestion's

I will keep you updated...more suggestions are very welcome


Jeroen

[Ben]

Jeroen,

First of all you are doing a great job looking after your discus and they are very healthy!

Just remember one thing they are a hard fish to breed so be persistent and don’t give up!

Could it be possible that your water supply is different to your friends down the road?

How are you treating the water from the tap?

Keep us posted and we all hope that you have some fry for you soon Jeroen!

Cheers
Ben

[Jeroen]

Hi Ben,

Thanks for the compliment...tring to do my best to take care of them...
I don't treat the water at all, it is as sayed very clean.
My friend down the road (www.terrysdiscus.nl) is nog doing anything to the water also...
It's even worser....when he has a eggs and/or fry he just clean the tanks and/or change the water and the refill is comming straight from the tap :S

Jeroen

[jim from sydney]

Hi Ben,

Thanks for the compliment...tring to do my best to take care of them...
I don't treat the water at all, it is as sayed very clean.
My friend down the road (www.terrysdiscus.nl) is nog doing anything to the water also...
It's even worser....when he has a eggs and/or fry he just clean the tanks and/or change the water and the refill is comming straight from the tap :S

Jeroen

Jeroen......you should check your water anyway....like i mentioned earlier Hollandse water varies a lot....no harm in checking.....you can then do a method of elimination and find out what is so different from others.
There are so many variables in discus breeding. if there were not than breeding would become pretty boring...the challenge is what makes it so rewarding in the end.......you are doing fine, just don't expect miracles overnight.. :roll: ..Jim

[Jeroen]

Hi Jim,

I don't expect miracles, I have tested the water a few times here and by my friend

Al values where exact the same...

No2
No3
Ph
Kh
Gh
CU
Fe
Nh4 & Nh3

Jeroen

[jim from sydney]

Jeroen....do you have a proven pair???????that have actually raised fry before??????and if you have can you isolate them in their own breeding tank?????

[Jeroen]

Yes Jim a few (couples are proven, I have seen pictures and/or video's from the couples.

Each couple has his own tank, 4 tanks are connected to one large biological filter and the rest of the tanks has all a filter themselves

Question:
On all of the tanks I was using airstones, NOT in the tank part, but in the filter part, this is exacly seperated part of the tank
Could it be that the vibration of the air pomp (transport by the air/airhose) is responsible for the white...can the vibration (maybe on a certain frequency) kill/brake the eggs ?

Jeroen

[jim from sydney]

Jeroen......in the wild discus live and breed in almost still water. It is only during the rain periods that all the natural activities start to develop.
It is worth a try to only connect a sponge filter and nothing else. Infertile eggs can results from lots of reasons.
It takes both parents to create life....both of them must not be stressed during courtship.
I would also keep everyone away from the tanks, and move around them slowly for a while...
w/c keep it to a minimum of 10% per day
we can only try, but keep some records it will help you in the future.
good luck

[jim from sydney]

Jeroen

i had a look around for you......not much on infertile eggs i am afraid.
this is about the best


http://www.devotedly-discus.co.uk/acatalog/Discus_Care.html

[Jeroen]

Hi Jim,

Thanks a lot for your time and research.
As I mentioned before the friend who was having succes with breeding stopped with this and I bought his tanks and one of his couple who had raised allready quit a few nest.
This couple has spawn just a few ours ago...if this brings up to nothing then I only can conclude there is something wrong in the water.
I will keep you updated.

Jeroen

[jim from sydney]

Jeroen



good luck

[Jeroen]

Again one more wasted round of eggs :(
Gonna try else now, will use 100% procent pure osmoses water and will add there minerals myself...this way I will eliminate other harmfull chemicall's or things...let's see if things get better this way...
I will decrease values to:

PH 6.1
Kh 1
Gh 3
Us 100 (equal to 50 ppm)

Will keep u updated.
Jeroen

[jim from sydney]

Again one more wasted round of eggs :(
Gonna try else now, will use 100% procent pure osmoses water and will add there minerals myself...this way I will eliminate other harmfull chemicall's or things...let's see if things get better this way...
I will decrease values to:

PH 6.1
Kh 1
Gh 3
Us 100 (equal to 50 ppm)

Will keep u updated.
Jeroen

Hi Jeroen

100% osmoses is no good Buddy as it will take all the calcium out of the water. remember osmosis removes minerals and the fish need calcium for bone growth..
have you tried 90% osmosis + 10% conditioned tapwater????

ofcourse you could try 100% anyway to see if it works for the eggs at least you will eliminate the cause......

i am experiencing the same at the moment with a pair of blue diamonds....white eggs all the time......i am letting it go for a few more weeks to see if anything changes naturally remember water quality also changes day by day.....so dont make too many changes too quickly...good hunting....

[k9outfit]

Probably a dumb suggestion, but could it have something to do with the water lines? Copper leeching into the tapwater, or lead or something?

[Jeroen]

Hi Jim,

The water is absolutly not free of calciums and so...when I have a 100% osmose water then I add Sera mineral salt...with this I Increase the values (with a max of 100 us) so basicly what I do is I make the water very clean and remove all bad things if there is any (and good ones) and then I add only good minerals myself...

http://www4.sera.de/site/products/product.php?id=50&language=en

Copper I hae been thinking about also...I have tested copper in the water and the test daid there isn't any :S

Jeroen

[jim from sydney]

Jeroen.....your conductivity seems low to me, it is relative to ions in solution, meaning things like calcium. I have mine at 200 micro Siemems
you can check this with your GH and KH readings if they are OK than usually you conductivity should be OK
I run my tanks at GH=3 KH=3 and temp= 28C pH=6.4 and 205mS at the moment.

[angelpimp]

I have been having the same issue and someone made the suggestion to treat for HEX as this was the cause for the milt not penatrating the egg. I have just completed the treatment and the coloration of my snow whites has increased and become more vibrant. In fact, I treated all my discus and all the colors have become more vibrant.

Both of my snow white pairs are getting ready to spawn again so I will see if the treatment worked. It has also been suggested that I put formilan, meth-blue, or meroxy (sp) in with the fish when they spawn as this will help protect the eggs from "turning white".

I would suggest the meroxy (sp) because it is clear at a ratio of 3 drops/gallon. If you have to use meth-blue, then 4 drops/gal (same for meth-green).

Good luck! (Lord knows I am gonna need it!)

Phil

:ug :ug

[Jeroen]

Hi Phil,

Thank you for your information, I will certainly keep it in mind...please keep me update about your progress.

A few days ago I have visisted a Discus breeder overhere and he told me (and showed me proof (3 couples with fry)) that Ph and Us (microsiemens are not so important in the way we think.

He is keeping and breeding the discus on a 550 microsiemens and Ph 7, more important by his knowledge seem to be the Kh...this was aprox 0.5 in his thanks.

As he explained, the many various discus we have is not from wild and they need other watervalues.

Cause I have to different tank setups running am making some test there, one setup is lowering the values to: Ph 6.2 microsiemens 100 (kh not tested yet)

Other tanksetup has reached the values of Ph 6.7 , 500microsiemens and Kh 1.5

Not exactly same as his...but before I could lower the Kh more the couple has spawn.
At this moment it stil looks good (28 hours)

Hope this will make a change.

Jeroen

[jim from sydney]

Jeroen.......what works for one, does not always work for the other.... :oops:

good luck with your next effort.... :wink:

[angelpimp]

Jim is right. Just because what I typed seems to be working for me, does not mean it will work for you. I just wanted to share my experiance with you.

:wave2 I got eggs from one of my snow whites last night sometime. Now I will see if this actually will work...

Phil

[jim from sydney]

Jim is right. Just because what I typed seems to be working for me, does not mean it will work for you. I just wanted to share my experiance with you.

:wave2 I got eggs from one of my snow whites last night sometime. Now I will see if this actually will work...

Phil

Phil....good luck

[lesxda]

do you use anti fungal agent

[Jeroen]

Hi Lesxda,

No, I don't use anti fungal agent...there is not really a fungus growing on it (I mean the white colorod cotton looking stuff) the eggs turn in white from the inside...but they stay clean from the outside atleast 3 days.

As I mentioned before I changed the water settings and it seems to be a little better....aprox 25 fry has come out....jippie

I do understand that what works for one is not working for another....but this is kind of strange isn't ?

I mean difference between WC and breed I do understand, but I asume that breed does need kind of same water values....do we know such a little about the king of aquarium ?

Jeroen

[jim from sydney]

Jeroen......

do you mean it is OK now ?????

after all the effort is works then?????

if so, what is the main difference that you made????

[Jeroen]

Well I wouldn't say it is really working Jim....better call it a little progress.

This is what I have done different:
I decrease the Kh to 1.5 and increase the Us (by kitchensalt) to a 550 Us

Meanwhile when they started spawning I shut down the pump for 1 hour
Myself I think the pump has nothing to do with it cause i have a very low waterflow (circulation)

The reason why I would call it a progress is because there were only 20 a 25 fry that did come out

Unfortunally only about 10 made it to the parents and those did not survive longer then 1 day...this has to do with tiny mistakes in the tank.

So the sollution is stil not there, but maybe I am in the good direction
I started setup to filter also with Carbon (coal) see if this makes any improvement

Will keep you updated.
Jeroe

[Jeroen]

New rounds...new chances

A little progress I would say...
Aprox 40 eggs have made it to fry stadium.
Tommorow they should leave the cone and attach to the parents...hope they will make it.
comming 4 days I won;t be home...maybe only better, they won't get disturbed by me.

Jeroen

[jim from sydney]

Jeroen.......ze lyken veel beter deze keer.......good luck

[Merrilyn]

Lovely photo Jeroen. Good luck with the fry attaching.

[k9outfit]

ze lyken veel beter deze keer
Ja; zo denk ik ook :thumb

[Jeroen]

Quit some dutch speaking folks around here...we should make it world language hehehe...

Anyway....it did ends up with noting, as soon the fry came to the stadium of free swimming (leaving the cone) the all got lost, probably this got to do with the blue color on the bottom and sides...this a pretty dark blue...espcially the sides where the light reflects on a different angle looks much darker.
No problem....I know now that this couple is good...so now I slowly can experiment with water values/filter material to gey the best results

Tanx for the compliments on the picture....it was just a quick (lucky) shot.

As usual I will keep u updated.

Jeroen

[jim from sydney]

Jeroen....keep trying, it looks to me that you are on the right track

[Jeroen]

Ok....another round:

They spawned about 2.5 days ago, eggs are comming out today...but again very much withe eggs...I tried to count the fry and there are about 22, not much again.

Reacently I have sold one couple and the person who bought them called me a week and half later to tell me that he had fry

weirdest thing is that he have the same watervalues as I do (kh, gh, ph, microsiemens)....can you believe that :(

There must be something wrong here...BUT WHAT :(

Jeroen

[TeeFM]

any progress??