Dwarf newb looking for ideas! :D

[Auscanuckafishy]

Hey guys!

Thanks to those who pointed me here, and for those who don't know me my name's Mark and I have extensive experience with rift lake cichlids, but am a relative dwarf newbie. Almost everything I've done has been pH 7+ so far.

I started out with Kribs way back when, and I still think they were the most fun I ever had with my fish. So i'm looking to delve back into the realm of dwarfs at the moment, but not too sure whats available, particularly up here in Queensland.

I have a 4*18 with a massive hunk of wood in it that's just begging for some fish, it will be completely planted out, so nothing that likes eating/digging up plants. Whaddaya reckon? I had some double reds a while back and I didn't mind them, but thought it would be cool to have something not so linebred, you know, true to their wild roots.

It will probably be established with some very well quarantined tetras and whatnot before I get the cichlids, so nothing that's gunna go nuts on em. My experience with kribs was that neon tetras make great targets, until they all go kamikaze. Which is a shame because I do love the west africans......

Anyways, what would you recommend species wise? I'm wide open to any suggestion so long as I'm realistically able to aquire them. I also wouldn't mind having more then one species if 4*18 is big enough and if you can be sure they won't get too friendly with each other.

Looking to be sucked in by these miniature marvels!
Mark.

[Th0mas]

Hi Mark,

Welcome aboard!!

It really depending on the budget you want, some of these guys command a rather hefty price tag (elizabethae => $250 a pair). If you think some of those Rift Lake are over priced, think again.

Some of the threads in this board contain some pricing of apisto that has been coming through SLS over the recent months. These should give you an idea what's around at what $$. To be honest, some of those locally bred stock coming out of the bigger wholesalers are rather poor in quality (hence the lower price tag), hence there is some relation to the $$ versus quality equation.

Given the recent importations, possibly we may see some good quality and more exotic locally bred apisto around in near future. In the mean time, most good quality apisto are rather dependant to the foriegn import.

Thomas.

[Auscanuckafishy]

Hmmm, $250 a pair but I bet they're not guaranteed to produce like those africans and be $5 tomorrow...... hehe

No moneys not a huge issue but I certainly won't be spending that much before i have a little experience :).

I'll have a poke around and see what takes my fancy.

Cheers,
Mark

[kevkoi]

Possibly the easiest 2 groups to start with is the cacatuoides and agassizi/pulchra group.

The line bred variants of cacatuoides and agassizi are probably the most commonly available variant. If you want something easy to breed to get your feet wet, then go for A.cacatuoides "double/triple red" or A.agassizi "Double/super red".

Look for quality in the red. Deeeeeep FULL RED on all the fins! There's just too much CR*P coming out cheap and nasty from Indonesia that many of the importers are bringing in as "double red" (when they aren't even remotely close to red!!)

If you're more adventurous and want to try something naturally beautiful, check out A.agassizi "Tefe Buana".... I think they're naturally beautiful, no matter who u ask!
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/7918/aggriotefe.gif


OR if you like flashy looking fish.... Apistogramma baenschi "Inka50".
http://think-execution.cside.ne.jp/dc/baenschi/page_01.html

kev

[parkap]

Hi Mark,

Glad to see you've come over... :D

Be careful waht kev say's, he'll sell ice to eskimos. :lol: Just kidding, the regulars on this board like Kev and Thomas above are definitely people you need to listen to.

I had apisto's a few eyars ago and have recently gotten back into them, so I'm very much on the learning curve as well.

I've found the baenschi inka 50's to be quite hardy so far. My male astounds me day to day with his colour development.

Cacatuoides I've found are usually the hardiest for me, and their high back fins are just great. My current male who I just got from my LFS who ordered from AI, has turned out spectacularly and at a fraction of the cost of imports. But on the same token, my experience with the quality of apistos from AI and Bay in the past, has been scratchy at best. I recently heard that the father of one of the Bay owners (not sure if he was the original owner before his son took over) is breeding apisto's to supply to Bay. Have only seen the remnants of a load at an LFS I walked into on the weekend so not really a good basis for quality comparison.

In regard to agazissii's, yes, yes, yes, they're again "supposed" to be one of the more hardier varieties. But not for me. No matter what I do, I just can't get a male to survive. It's so annoying because I've got some absolutely beautiful females all coloured up waiting for a man to come into their lives.

I've also found that while not an apistogramma, the nanacara anamola a great little SA dwarf with a lot of personality. Not the same brilliant colours as the apistogrammas, but beautfiul in it's own way.

Peter.

[steph]

HI Mark

Welcome to the fabulous world of dwarfs :)

Probably the first decision to make is west africans vs south americans as I wouldnt recommend mixing the two continents, its usually a recipe for trouble.

Im a big apistogramma fan myself :D however for super easy to keep something like Nannacara anomala is a good choice or Microgeophagus altispinosa (Bolivian Ram)

The other option other than A cacatoides or A agassizi (my personal favourite) is A borelli. A baenschi (Inka) is also pretty easy to keep and forgiving of water conditions. Some like A iniridae or diplotaenia are blackwater species which means they need pH 5.x and low low almost zero hardness which is a lot harder to achieve than rift lake conditions ;) Dicrossus filamentosus is in the same category.

I currently keep a pair of A trifasciata and a trio of A baenschi in a std 4fter with other fish (tetras, 1 bolivian ram, SAE's) and will be adding another pair of another species to that tank.

FOr successful breeding tetras are not the best companions, most people recommend pencilfish or other slower moving top layer fish.

Hope this helps, feel free to ask as many questions as you like

Cheers

Steph

[parkap]

Mark,

I would've included Steph in my post in regard to people you shoud listen to, but knew she'd be along pretty soon anyway. :wink:

p.

[Th0mas]

Hmmm, $250 a pair but I bet they're not guaranteed to produce like those africans and be $5 tomorrow...... hehe


Mark,

The apisto don't breed like rabbit, and unlikely to see their prices fall through. I've waiting for an affordable pair of elizabethae for almost 10 years and their prices is pretty much the same (you may say the price has fallen due to the fall to the value of our $$ over the recent years, but their supply is always little with top quality).

A. baenschi is hardy, beautiful, and very adaptable to various water condition. My environment fluctuate heavily everytime I do a water change (pH swings from < 5 to 6.5 in a matter of hour) and none of these are suffering from any health issue. This species is full of character, female is moderate agressive but the male can have a fair bit of temper. My dominant male has declared his terrtory around 2/3 of a 3 ft tank, and chase off any apisto in his line of sight (there's enough apisto in the tank to distribute his agression without any damage). Hopefully his temper will settle down when he becomes more mature. From what I'm aware, most baenschi around at the moment are imported wild caught fish, but some locally bred F1 should be coming through in near future.

If you prefer larger fish with more orange flavour, veijita or macmasteri would be the choice.

There are plenty of cacs and aggies around, but getting something decent can be a bit of a gamble (given the fish are usually juvenile at the LFS).

Thomas.

[steph]

Peter - you are far too kind to someone also returning to the hobby after a few years break.

As Thomas said A. baenschi is fairly feisty, although my male shows far less agression than Thomas'. Even with a spawn to protect he kept his territory down to less than 1ft square - however a lot of this may have been the shape of the wood and rocks creating natural barriers.

Keep in mind Apisto aggression is nothing on rift lake fish, as fish deaths are fairly rare and usually from either a highly aggressive individual (A. panduro often) or spawning female. Agression is best dealt with by creating natural mini territories in a tank - breaking up the line of sight on the bottom of the tank rather than the mass crowding approach needed for africans.

ALso keep in mind when buying dwarfs from a LFS you are likely to be buying "little brown fish". Juveniles are very boring in colour, and the stresses of a shop life do nothing for them. Typically with good food and a nice home they start to show colour in 2 -3 days, and then more with maturity. My male A baenschi has almoot doubled in mass in 2 months and displays 10x more colour than when I bought him.

Steph

[Th0mas]

Steph,

Your male just have a better personality. My tank is heavily planted and he just wanted that 2ft length of my 3 ft tank (the area where I normally drop bloodworm, BBS etc).

He's just greedy :P

Thomas.

[Auscanuckafishy]

G'day guys,

Yeah those Tefe Buana are very nice, so is that baenschi hehe.
Admittedly my so called double reds never did look as good as I thought they were supposed to, if I remember correctly they were from Bayfish, but that was a couple of years ago when I was working in an aquarium. I bought some wild caught P. taeniatus back then too, but my boss stuck em in a tank normally containing africans until I could pick them up.... not happy, they didn't last long.

So many options huh, I guess I'll just have to go with whatever tickles my fancy the most when I come across them and have cash in my wallet hehe. I'm certainly not worried about boring looking fish, the haps were always my faves, and it was agonizing waiting for my fossies to colour up. A couple of days sounds like heaven!!!!

I wouldn't mind breeding them even if I can't salvage fry, so maybe I should rethink the tetra idea. I don't mind a large empty looking tank as long as the fish are happy. At the moment the tank is a 4*18*20 with a huge log diagonally from corner to corner, which was good enough to keep my rivulatus from finding each other, so I can imagine it would be quite successfull for appistos. I like the fact the fish can hide in there, and you can have fun searching all corners of the tank and log trying to see where they've spawned.... :)

Maybe I should start collecting rainwater just in case huh? ;) I'm in the middle of nowhere, 8km to the nearest town and only 5000 people live there anyway. I bet the rains gunna be pretty good out here. Maybe later down the track once the bug has fully bitten me (which it will).

I'll either go for a couple of appisto species (if possible? which species can't mix? I know variants of the same species are a no no, that goes without saying), or i'll go with one species of west african..... hmm most likely appistos.

As far mass crowding, I was never an advocate of that approach, I had the best success with selectively putting together species that could tolerate each others presence, around 3 species per 4 footer. I never had any problems, not even with zebs. It helps when you have lots of tanks though.... No I'll only have pairs or trios (if they do that) I'd say, this tank is gunna be planted out, with the fish just being a subtle highlight, I wanna see a flash of fish now and again, while feeding up the front or just exploring the tank.

Thankyou for your most informative replies!

Mark

[parkap]

Steph,

When are you going to post some picks of your set ups? Am dying to see how you've arranged your decor.

p.

[dreamer]

cheap and nasty from Indonesia that many of the importers are bringing in as "double red"

what do you expect from 30c a pop ?

[steph]

Peter

Just for you Ive posted a pic of my A trifasciata - well really I posted it and then I read this message ;)

My setup is messy, and has nasty black algae all over the back glass and Im the worlds worst aquascapist (dave does a much better job) and Ive seen pics of your tank, so there is no way Im even going there.

Steph