breeding blue rams

[Nathan]

ive been tryng to breed blue rams for a while, i havnt had any problems with them spawning but ive never been able to get the eggs to hatch, i put one lot of eggs in a breeding catcher and they all turned white, what does that mean?

i need help please!
Nathan

[Daetarek]

i can't even get mine to spawn :(

any tips for the begginer ?

[Noddy65]

Hi Nathan
Its good that your rams are laying but they are very difficult to hatch.
White eggs usually mean fungus, I have (at home) a paper on using Hydrogen peroxide (very diluteed of course) for controlling this. You can use some other fish antifungals (Methylene blue) but Ive read that it results in a high incidence of fry deformities (Im not sure of the validity of this though).
It would be best to setup a small container (Ive been saving those 500 ml Fruit containers for just this purpose), setup a air stone and use the Hydrogen peroxide method (Ill email you or post a link here when i get home). The nice thing about using a small container is that when you feed the fry the small volume means that food can be delivered easily but you will have to do frequent small water changes.

Hope that helps.

Dr Mike

ps...Am I related to you? :D
pps: Ill also try and attach a pic of my latest spawning, got wrigglers but no free swimming fry but I left it up to the parents. Next spawn im going half and half

[Nathan]

um i dno r u? haha dr mike, had to put that in didnt u? alright thanx mate, so how did the last lot go, or couldnt you see what happened? :shock:

take care
nathan

[sharn]

mmm, theyre prone to fungus, even wrigglers can get it im told! alot of people use meth blue with no probs but im not sure as i never got past one day of eggs before they ate them hehe.

ive read mixed things about parental care, some think theyre good, others think its best to remove one or the other, some both all together. they will eat the eggs if you disturb them though so if you want to remove them be sneaky and quick!

[Noddy65]

Heres the links I promised
My rams spawned again this am, so Ill be pulling the eggs.
Ill use the procedure outlined in the first link and see how it goes.

http://www.aquatic-hobbyist.com/profiles/breeding/bluerambreeding.html
http://www.gcca.net/howto/hatch_substrate_spawners.htm

Dr Mike

[Noddy65]

Heres a pic of the previous spawn, wrigglers but no free swimmers.
Dr Mike
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a378/Noddy65/rams.jpg

[sharn]

wow, that spawns HUGE (my female was young and it was her first batch). what happened to the wrigglers?

[Noddy65]

Not sure what happened, the pair moved the eggs/wrigglers around alot and I think they just gradually got thinned out as they moved them. It was their first spwan so they still have some learning to do.
The latest spwan is incubating well, two days in my incubater and no fungus and the eggs are looking good..Fingers crossed.

Mike

[fishgeek]

white egg's just generally mean infertile

you may find that the fungus is a secondary problem rather than the whole cause
what are your water parameters , it has been proposed that certain dissolved elements may interfere with fertilisation of the egg's , therefore having soft water is a neccesary to allow fertilisation

if you are seeing pale brownish/off white coloured egg's then it more likely that you are getting fertilisation and the egg's are then succumbing as suggested

certainly if attempting to artifically raise the egg's and fry a current and antifungal will be required for the first 3 days

best of luck
andrew

[Noddy65]

Well, so far so good. The artificial hatching using H2O2 q12 hrs has kept any fungus away.
The first few wrigglers are out this am, now the difficult part starts.
Ive got microworms and a paramecium culture going (but not sure if these are really producing yet).
The eggs are in a small 1 litre container and not really having anything else suitable ill keep teh wrigglers in there for the time being as well, teh small volume menas the wrigglers should find food.
Any ideas when I should start feeding, I assume theyre a bit like birds and dont need to be fed for the first 24 hrs or so? Is this correct?

Ive been using water out of the adults tank to top up the egg container, its pretty soft as I use an RO unit to supply my water, I think Ill just start using straight RO to top up form now on.
Was thinking of doing daily 20% changes, does this sound Ok to people?

Mike

[steph]

Sounds good Mike, good luck with the wrigglers. Keep the temperature up about 28C as well as this speeds development. Linke & Staeck's breeding notes say 40hours to hatching at 29C and then 116 hours (5 days) to free swimming. Im fairly sure they dont start eating until free swimming, keep an eye on the yolk sac and add food just before it disappears.

HTH

Steph

[parkap]

Mike,

Once things settle down for you, I'd love to see a post on how you produced the microworms and a paramecium culture. (ie. I've no idea at all on these things.)

p.

[Noddy65]

Thanks Steph
Will do as you suggest....

Heres a good link for Microworm and paramecium cultivation, its pretty much what I do. Although I have got a pure Paramecium culture from my wife who works in a university Laboratory. So far for me the bread system for raising microworms is working very well, the porridge works well as well.

http://members.optushome.com.au/chelmon/Contents.htm

Check out the "Feeding and Raising Rainbow Fish" section and follow the link to teh live food your interested in.

Mike

[parkap]

Mike,

Fantastic link. Thanks heaps.

Peter.

[DiscusMad]

get somethng that u can put in the tank that has a bowl shape and when they lay take the pair put them in a tank of there own and have a flow of water running over the eggs i put mine in a 60lt tank with a small power head washing the eggs some of my eggs turn white but the other eggs that are with them don't go white my rams don't pick off the bad eggs so this works fine for me

[Noddy65]

Thanks discusmad.
The rams are in their own tank (50 litres) , the pictured spawn was their very first so Im not surprised things went a little bad.
Ive pulled the second swpan for hatching but will leave the next one and see how the parents go again.

So far have around 20 wrigglers, many of the eggs have turned white now, doesnt look like fungus though (hatched egg remnants?). Ive got to decide now how long to leave the rock in, Ive stopped the H2O2 treatment, I dont know what effect it will have on little immature gills. Im worried that if I leave the rock in with bad eggs they may go fungussy (is that a real word?) and affect the wrigglers. I might leave it for the rest of today (36 hrs should be enough for all the eggs to hatch) and then take it out.

Mike

[Nathan]

hey mike hope this lot go well. hey howd your plant swap meet go?

Nathan

[steph]

Mike

There was a good discussion recently on apistogramma.com on the use of hydrogen peroxide when hatching eggs. From memory Im sure they stopped it at first appearance of wrigglers but you may want to check it out.

Here is the thread:
http://forum.apistogramma.com/showthread.php?t=4079&highlight=hydrogen+peroxide

Hope this is ok with the mods ;)

Steph

[Noddy65]

Thanks Steph....Hmmm some say stop, some say keep going with the H2O2.
Since this is an experiment really ill stop the H2O2, remove the rock this afternoon and see how things go.
The wrigglers are in a 1 litre Plastic Breakfast fruit Jar :D , I will do daily 15 - 20 5% H2O changes until theyre free swimming. The jars are opaque but not very see through so I can only see the little buggers from above, will have to try and guess when the yolk sac is absorbed.

I might try feeding microworms in 3 days regardless, with the wtaer changes things shouldnt get too messy.

Mike

[DiscusMad]

here is a pic of my male faning the eggs

[DiscusMad]

i had beter success when I have sand in the tank

[DiscusMad]

some eggs

[DiscusMad]

wigglers

[DiscusMad]

sorry about the bad pics

[DiscusMad]

dad trying to keep the young ones in line

[DiscusMad]

all batches of fry always find this spot good for a feed

[parkap]

Nice hatch rate Discumad. What's the survival rate like?

Mike, how are your's going?

[steven_askham]

Sorry I dont really have much to offer as mine bred accidently. :D

[Noddy65]

Still going well.
All just wrigglers at the moment.
I removed the rock but a kind of mould developed on teh bottom of teh jar. I dont know if its from egg remnants or from something else.
I siphoned as much as I could out and have started back on the H2O2 for the next few days.

Have started the daily 20% water changes today as well using RO water.

Im going to go and give them a very small squirt of microworms in about 5 minutes.

Mike

[fishgeek]

discus mad is that an oil burner you fish have bred in/on?

andrew

maybe it was the armoatherapy that got them going :D

[parkap]

discus mad is that an oil burner you fish have bred in/on?

andrew

maybe it was the armoatherapy that got them going :D

Nice one andrew... :lol: 8-)

[DiscusMad]

Nice hatch rate Discumad. What's the survival rate like?


only lose about 10-30 each time and they are nice and strong when they are bigger

[sharn]

discus mad- are they balloons or is it just the pic?

[Noddy65]

So far so good. They are all free swimming at the moment and have been for the last 2 dasy.
Feeding them microworms three times a day and doing daily (at night) 20% water changes.
Mike

[DiscusMad]

discus mad- are they balloons or is it just the pic?

very well fed

[DiscusMad]

discus mad is that an oil burner you fish have bred in/on?

andrew

maybe it was the armoatherapy that got them going :D

well ya gota get them in the mood with some nice smelly oils :lol:


yes it is na oil burner and my femails will not lay eggs on anything now unless the is an oil burner in the tank with them talk about picky huh?

[Robdog]

Is it mainly the male that does the fanning and guarding?
I saw a pair the other day that had eggs in the shop tank. It seemed the male did most of the protection whilst the female just wandered around aimlessly.
Needless to say that I quickly bought them

[Robdog]

...and one more thing. Are dither fish recommended and if so which are suitable?

[antwan]

when mine watch over eggs/wrigglers/fry they just swap over every few minutes, they do a fantastic job of raising their young. Personally, i have never used dither fish...the fear of the dither getting a quick snack while the parents arent looking is too scary for me

[DiscusMad]

...and one more thing. Are dither fish recommended and if so which are suitable?

never needed or used dither fish at all