Urgent Opinion Required

[G-1000]

Hi Everyone,

I suspect that a new fish of mine has HITH (hole in the head) disease, but before I push a metro treatment onto it - I wanted to see if anyone agrees with me.

So pictures are attached below - input greatly appreciated...

G

[G-1000]

One more pic of gill plate

G

[sharn]

looks like it to me im no expert though

[Merrilyn]

Pretty definate case of Hole in the Head, also known as Head and Lateral Line Erosion. The lateral line on that fish is very prominent, so that, along with the craters around the head pretty much confirm the diagnosis.

Start your Metro treatment straight away, and at the higher dose rate of 400mg per 40 litres of water, and for the full 10 days.

[fishgeek]

merrilyn do you have any information that confirms HITH is caused by spironucleus or any particular protozoan?

i was under the impression that definite causation had not been identified

andrew

[G-1000]

Update

The fish has gotten darker than the above pics and i have run 2 days worth of metro at 400mg per 40L with no observable improvement.

If this continues until the end of the week - what does everyone think about force-feeding the fish to make it eat ?

The fish has been like that ever since I bought it from a LFS - unfortuneately for the little guy.

G

[endless]

I had a blue diamond with the exact same symptoms. What i did was put it in a hospital tank and used tetracyline at a rate of 1 tablet per 20 litres (as was recommended on the bottle). I left it in there for about a week and a half and replaced the dosage of tetracyline according to the amount of water change i did. during that time the bd did not eat as i think tetracyline is a pretty strong medication which stresses them out quite a bit. however during that time i could see improvements in the coloration as well as reducing the holes in the head. it only started to eat again after i stopped the medication and eventually made a full recovery. now there is no noticeable holes in the head

[fishgeek]

i thought(shoot me down if i'm wrong :wink:) that HITH was not fully understood
i have read papers in which the supposed causative agent has been found in both infected fish and also in large numbers of fish with no clincal signs
so the casualality(sp?) is not fully proven

i also saw oscars in the fish tanks of sea world floride with these lesions on
if there fish expertise wasn't sorting it then prehaps it cant always be sorted

theory's i have seen range from nutritional deficency of vit A,D + E

carbon being used in filtration

the protozoan infection

edwardsiella infection in catfish species (chronic infection leads to HITH)


comments i have from refrence books include
"hith in cichlids is a common problem with many precipitating factors...mortality is low.. recurrence is high" william wildgoose , anual of ornamental fish

dietr untergasser has suggested vit D3and calcium supplementation can be beneficial and that HITH signs are seen in fish who have no protozoan organisms within the GI tract
sunlight has also been advocated as helping heal these lesions, sunlight helps with conversion of vit D3 in the skin

this is from an older reference 1989 data so may be out of date

stoskopf has recommened larger tanks with lots of water changes and vit C supplementation

as you can see 3 reference with varying views on treatment

andrew

[G-1000]

Dear Fishgeek and Endless,

As far as tetracycline goes - you are right and I have used it before with great effect. However I must admit I consider that a last resort (yes, even after force-feeding) since the last time I used tetra, it freaked the living daylights out of the discus I had before. But I will go down that path if I have to.

In terms of what causes it and the causative organism - my understanding is that there are resident flora in the gut of the fish which act in a symbiotic way in normal circumstances. In a disease state or malnutrition, where the fish becomes somewhat immunocompromised, this can flare up big time and cause big problems for the fish. As to why the pits on the head appear - I dont know.

But in my case I have a bit of time to spare. I realised last night that the most widely accepted food was bloodworms, so what I did was to unfreeze the whole tray of hikari bloodworms. Then I put them into a bowl. I stirred in DImetronidazole (dimetro because it is far more water soluble), liquid vitamins (from sera) and laced it with seachem garlic guard to mask the presence of the metro and vitamins.

All the fish currently in quarantine have accepted this - obviously to varying degrees and so far it looks promising. I will update as to how this treatment goes.

If anybody wants to discuss HITH etc feel free to post in this thread or PM me - I am happy to discuss my experiences with it as of late.

G

[Merrilyn]

Hi fishgeek, I don't think anyone really knows what the cause of Hole in the Head really is. As I mentioned in this post http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2475
not enough scientific work has been done on this disease.

Some people claim to have cured it with diet alone. But my concern is that it is often coupled with other symptoms which indicates a more sinister disease.

From my own experience, whenever I see a discus with hole in the head, I'm very suspicious there may be something else going on as well. With a valuable fish, I will treat with metro, purely on the symptoms I can see. In an ideal world I would take my fish to along to the vet and have pathology tests done to determine exactly what's wrong. Also in an ideal world, the vet would know what the problem was, and be able to prescribe a treatment that works.

Unfortunately, it's not an ideal world, and all I can do is draw on 30 years of experience. I make no claims of medical expertise, and the advice I give is based purely on that experience.