Red Turks

[DaveP]

I have a pair of red turks that spawn once a week. I am lowering my PH and KH to try to get the eggs to hatch. Currently my readings are:

PH 7.3
Conductivity 380

3 days ago they laid eggs and a day later half of them were white. However the other half remained dark. Unfortunately the eggs were in the back corner of the tank on a peice of driftwood making it difficult to see small black dots indicating baby discus.

On day 3 the eggs that were dark turned clear and some of them looked like they were broken open.

Did the eggs hatch or die?

Were they fertile at one point?

Thanks!

[dachoo]

few possibility
-the white eggs got fungus & effect the rest.
-drift-wood has aquatic insect.
-the embryo is weak,development incomplete.

[DaveP]

Well they laid eggs 36 hours ago and half of them are white again. Hopefully I'll get the other half to hatch in the next 24 hours. I'll keep you posted.

My parameters are now:

PH: 7.2
Conductivity: 250

[Merrilyn]

Hi Dave, try to get that pH down a little more, to under 7 and you should have less trouble with fungus. Also, can you post a KH and DH reading.

It sounds like some of the eggs aren't being fertilised properly. Try replacing the driftwood with a breeding cone, and see if that helps the hatch rate. Do you have this pair in a breeding tank, or in a community tank? Discus fry will get lost or eaten in a planted community tank, which is why we always breed in a very bare 2 foot breeding tank, with nothing in there but a filter and heater, and a breeding cone. The fry need to be able to find their parents, and are programmed to go toward anything dark (their parents turn dark during spawning to attract the fry). If they lose contact with the parents, they swim aimlessly around the tank, heading for any dark object, until they starve and perish.

[DaveP]

ladyred thanks for the info!

They ate the last batch ~48 hours after spawning.

I got the PH down to 7.1 and conductivity down to 240. I'll have to measure GH/KH later in the day but I would imagine my GH is moderately hard with a conductivity reading of 240. I will continue to decrease the PH and hardness.

They are in a barebottom community tank but I divided the pair from the other 4 discus (58 gallon tank). I plan to set up a 20 gallon tank for the pair but just haven't gotten around to it yet. I'd like to see if this is a proven paid before I set up a new tank for them.

[jim from sydney]

Dave.....your PH is still too high, you should be aiming at about 6.3 for a good slime coating on the parents body. you can slowly reduce it....say by 0.2/24hrs is not a problem. Most sites also recommend a cond. reading of about 100. why is yours so high.....Jim

[DaveP]

Jim,

i will definitely bring my PH down but I don't to bring it down that far. My aim is not to breed this pair for any purpose rather than hobby. The information I read indicates that you can have success breeding in moderately hard water. I know Frank Bailey used to breed his discus in moderately hard water with great success.

For the past year + I used more tap water rather than RO in my water changes. My tap water in NJ, USA is super hard. Didn't really matter much at the time because I didn't have a pair.

I'll aim for conductivity of 100-150 and PH of 6.8 and see what happens!

Thanks for the responses so far, I'll keep you posted!

[jim from sydney]

Dave.....yeh do that and let's know how it goes....Jim

[piranha-discus]

hi dave
i think if u breed in hard water, its just very very lucky,
u will need soft water to breed, the softest the best, try to get a reading of total no hardness readings, the reason for that is --- as if the water is hard the membranes of the eggs shell hardens up, therefor the milt (sperms) cannot get in the egg, means not fert. soft water will keep the
membranes soft and the shell of the eggs will be soft for a short time. just enough time for the eggs to be fert, the eggs membranes will just hard naturaly in short period, if it was hard water there isnt much chance at all for the eggs to be fert. how u find out some one breeds with hard water?, got to remember some people do not give out thier secrets due they can make some cash out from thier hobby. i find best breed rate is past the 7 ph mark. reason that is think carfuly of there natral habit in south america, the water is acidy, wet season is breed season, why?, the answer is as rain heavy, the PH rise ( less acid), the temp cools about 2 to 3 deg,, and fresh rain water helps soften the water, remember thats for the wild, the hybirds has 6.5 etc and the ph gota rise,means ph 7 to 7.5 and use cool water that is soft for water change that makes the water in tank more soft and temp drop about 2 deg, thats how i get all my fish to trigger the sporn, and i have lots babies!
good luck and i hope my info helps u, cheers,,,, ben

[mike os]

couple of thought/suggestions

Ph is totaly irrelevant, hardness is more of an issue,( espescially as we are talking about tank bred strains rather than wild/f1 fish) 250ms is not to bad 150 is better. Some of the big european breeders do so in 300+ ( assume we know the relationship between hardness, other disolved compounds & conductivity)

Soft/acid water is a bonus & will certainly make things easier re fungus, slime & fertility but is definately not a prerequisite to success.

Are the pair, or the male, young? IME older males are usually more successful & really only get into their stride at 15-18 months.

even moderate currents will wash the sperm away before fertilisation can occur.

If the eggs are white within 24h then it is likely they are unfertilised, after 24h is usually down to cross contamination from the previously fungused eggs.

If they have only had a few attempts ( up to a dozen or so) it is not unusual for them to eat the eggs at 48h, ditto if they feel threatened or that the hatch is unlikely to survive or is unhealthy for whatever reason.

[DaveP]

When i was a young kid i learned a lot of information from Frank Bailey's email group listing. There are also some interviews available on the interenet where Frank talks abouts breeding in moderately hard water.

The male is young, about 14 months old and I have minimal current around the eggs. Ben, your philosophy makes a lot of sense and I will continue to decrease my hardness. i didn't get a chance to take a hardness reading yet... swamped at work.

The pair may feel threatened, the tank is split with eggcrate and there are 4 discus on the other side including 1 big male.

They already laid another batch of eggs this morning! This time on the side of the tank and they seem to be protecting the eggs more. Previously they didn't pay attention to the discus on the other side of the eggcrate. This time they are protecting the eggs with more aggression. I plan to set up a 20 gallon for them once work slows down.

They really are a beautiful pair, hope to take pictures this weekend!

Thanks for the feedback!

[DaveP]

24 hours later and only 20 eggs turned white!
I'll keep you posted, cross your fingers.

[DaveP]

Well 48 hours later all but about 5 of the eggs turned white. I am assuming the male is too young still?

[DiscusMad]

you should try picking off the white eggs