Can't get rid of fin & tail rot

[keinert]

I've been keeping discus for 9 months now. 100 gal, P.H.=6.9 Temp=87 deg. F. Using soft water from my tap. I do 30% water changes 3 times per week, use a UV sterilizer and activated carbon. Still my discus only last a few months, then die. Their tail fins (which are normally clear) will develop small "cloudly" or white spots on edge of their tail fins. Then the fin ends will rot away. To me, it doesn't look like a fungus or cotton growth. The fin itself just turns a cloudy white color in small areas. Over the last several months, I've treated with Quick Cure, Maracyn, Maracyn II, Melafix, Pimafix. The Maracyn medications seem to work,but it comes right back after medication stops. What am I overlooking????
Thanks, Kevin. keinert@sbceo.org

[Merrilyn]

Hello Kevin, and a very warm welcome to the forum.

Finrot can be a real nuisance to cure at times. Can you tell me a little more about your tank. I need to know things like:-


How long has the tank been set up
Planted or bare bottom
Other fish in the tank and when did you add them
Any new recent additions to the tank, and do you quarantine fish before adding them to the main tank
Ammonia and nitrite and nitrate readings of your tank
A photo would be good if you can manage it.

It makes me think that there is something in your tank causing the finrot, that the UV is not stopping. It may be another type of fish carrying the bacteria whilst not showing any symptoms of finrot.

I'll try to piece all the information together, and come up with some suggestions for you. In the meantime, remove the carbon from your filter. Carbon is not always the best thing for a discus tank. It strips a lot of good things out of the water, as well as some of the not so desirable things, but it only lasts for a couple of weeks, at which time, it stops working, and just releases the toxins back into the tank.

[keinert]

Hello, thanks for the reply. To answer your questions:

1) Tank has been set up 4yrs. Had Angels, Parrots, Tetras. Just switched over to Discus 9mo ago. I did not empty the tank and start fresh.
2) Large size gravel bottom (1/4" dia. rocks), about 1" thick layer, I vacuum twice per week and rinse the cloth filter immediately afterwards. I replace the cloth filter every 2 weeks.
3) Current residents in this 100gal= 9 Discus, 2 Clown Loach, 1 BLack Ghost. I had a very large Angel and a bleeding heart tetra that I moved out yesterday (to my hospital tank), just in case they are carrying any disease, although I can't immagine them having any disease because they are old timers and has been through ALL of the medication treatments that I listed in my original post. All current fish have been in for the last 2 to 3 months.
4) Ammonia and nitrite and nitrate readings all check very low. I've double checked the readings by dip strips and by drops (2 different test kits).
5) The cloudy spots on the fins seem to change slightly each day. Sometimes the fins can return to clear again. The fin rot can take many days to progress.

[Merrilyn]

I think we should start simple, with a heavy salt treatment, and see if we can eradicate the bacteria from your system.

First you'll need to remove the loaches and black ghost to the hospital tank. The angel can go back into the main tank, as salt won't hurt him. Any live plants will need to be removed, as they won't survive a prolonged salt treatment.

Now I'm suggesting you start with a teaspoon of rock salt or kosher salt per 10 gallons of water. Over the next few days, gradually increase the salt till you have a concentration of 4 heaped teaspoons per 10 gallons, and hold it at that level for 2 weeks.

When you do your water changes, remember to add salt to the change water, so it's the same as your tank water. Salt remains in the water till you actually remove it by water changes.

You say your water readings are low, just how low?
There should be a zero ammonia reading and a zero nitrite reading. Nitrate should be under 10.

I'm thinking that it's a bacteria that's causing your finrot, and not fungus. Bacterial finrot can show as white spots, dark edges, or red streaks. Fungal finrot usually has a fuzzy edge.

It's interesting that only your discus are showing signs of the bacteria. I would have thought that the other fish would be affected too, so perhaps it has been in your tank for a long time, and the long term residents have developed their own immunity.

Let me know how the salt treatment goes. If no results within a week, we'll have to hit it harder with some different antibiotics.

[keinert]

Hi Merrilyn,
Yes, most of my angels and tetras over the past year or two have shown signs of fin rot after being in the tank for 6 months or so. The only fish that has not shown symptoms has been the black ghost. This one is roughly 5 months in the tank now and around 6" long. I already use a teaspoon of rock salt per 20gal and replace with water changes. After reading a few other posts, I have been medicating with Epson salt for three days now. 2 days ago I added 50ml of Epson (about 10 tbl sp). Yesterday I did a 50% water change and added 20ml Epson. Today I changed 30% of the water and added 20ml Epson. My Ammonia and Nitrites are at the low end of the acceptable ranges on both my test kits (almost zero). I have air stones in the tank yet they seem to be breathing a little heavier than Discus that I have observed in the fish store. Also, they a strong appitite. All were very eager to eat freeze dried worms last week. I just switched to live worms last week in an effort to give them a better diet. Now they are not as eager to take the freeze dried, but instantly devoure live. One other note: Most are turquoise, one pigion blood and one blue. I just had two golden dragons die last week. They had additional symptoms. They still tried to eat, but would spit out every bit of freeze dried food they ate. Over two weeks or so, they became very thin (like a skeleton) and finally died. All the while, still wanting to eat, but spitting everything out. The remaining 9 Discus are not showing any signs of thinning and they are not spitting out food, they just have the random fin rot. Any other medicines that you can suggest? Or should I continue the Epson or Rock Salt treatments? Thanks, Kevin.

[Merrilyn]

Kevin, epsom salts are used for constipation. I'm not sure that's quite the right thing for these fish. Discontinue that, and do a big water change. Add back the rock salt, but not the epsom salts.

I'm wondering if we actually have two things going on here. The golden dragons were showing symptoms of gill flukes, (eating and spitting the food). Did they also have finrot?

I think we need to correct the finrot first, and then give them all a gill fluke and worm treatment.

Let's start with the salt treatment, because I think you're on the right track there, and gradually increase it till you're using 4 heap teaspoons per 40 litres of tank water.

I've included some links to articles on finrot, which you may find useful.


http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/Diseases/Fins.html
This link says that fin rot can be caused by parasites, bacteria, improper pH, bacteria or virus. Anti parasitics may be needed, antibiotics such as sulfa drugs, or adjusting the pH may be needed to correct the situation.


http://www.bettadreams.com/diseases.html
This article states that it could be caused by ammonia or nitrite, or bacteria. Treatment includes clean water, check water parameters, Kanacyn, maracyn, maracyn 2, furan 2, maroxy, or myacin.


http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=16&cat=1791&articleid=584
This article lists a few suspect bacteria, suggests stress, poor water conditions, and fish to fish spreading are causes of the disease. If it spreads to the body it can lead to death. Treatment is salt baths, genetian violet to the area, antibiotics, and removing aggressive fish.


http://www.aquaworldnet.com/faq/disease-fw.html
This article suggests first to try salt in the water. If it worsens decide if its bacterial or fungal.Bacteria is white but not cottony. If its fungus dab malachite green direct to the area, or use maroxy, or a methylene blue bath. If the fish is eating then feed antibiotic food. If not eating put antibiotic in water such as kanamycin+furanace.


http://www.dphnet.com/sub-article/cat-02/fin-rot.shtml
This article lists several bacteria that may be involved in fin rot. Prevention of the disease is stressed through clean water. Treatment is to first try salt 1 tsp/gal , and malachite green at 1 drop /gal for 4 days. Do frequent wc adding back salt and ? dose malachite green. If the disease reaches the fin root, it may never get back to normal.


http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/disease/finrot.htm
This article says that it is usually caused by stress, including poor water conditions, parasites, low O2 levels, bullying , or overcrowding. The first line of treatment is to remove the cause. Trimming out the damaged area is suggested and then antibiotics in the water.


http://www.bestfish.com/tips/042899.html
This article lists causes as aggression, chemistry including ph, nitrate , and chlorines. Also Parasite or bacteria (indicated by red streaks) Treatment = apply appropriate antiparasitic or antibiotic, good food and vitamins.


http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/disease/bacterial.htm
This article has pictures and lists possible organisms. Giving a detailed account of disease progression. Also lists baths of pp, antibiotic or chloramines-t, it lists topical antiseptics and medicated food as options. Also suggests possible use of injectable antibiotics.


http://www.pubnix.net/~spond/product/medicine.html#FinTailF
This link lists treatments as fungus cure, tc capsules, furan 2, fungus guard, or binox.


Hope this information helps.
_________________

[keinert]

Thanks, how much rock salt will the black ghost tolerate?
I'd like to leave him in the tank.

[marg]

You will kill him if you dose him with Salt - he is scaleless and scaleless fish such as Bristlenose, Clown Loaches and Knife Fish can't tolerate Salt.

Put him in another tank whilst you medicate the others.

Hope this helps.,

Regards,

Marg.

[Merrilyn]

These are very young fish, and appear a little stunted in growth according to the photos. Did you get them all from the same source?

That's a rather advanced case of finrot, and you need to get onto it as soon as possible.

You will need to remove your ghost knife. As Marg said, they don't do well with any level of salt in the water.

[keinert]

They all came from http://somethingsphishy.com/ in Florida

[Merrilyn]

As soon as we get this finrot under control, and they are feeling better, you'll find they'll put on a real growth spurt.

How are they looking now Kevin? Have you noticed any improvement with the added salt?

[keinert]

Hi Merrilyn,
I appreciate you checking in with me. This is the first forum where someone has taken that time. I'm up to about 2.5 teaspoons of rock salt per 10gal. The black ghost and clown loaches are still in the tank. I decided to the take the chance on leaving them because I don't want to introduce any fish back into the tank after the treatments end. The rot seems to be in a holding pattern for the last day or so. It does not look like it is progressing but the fins are not regrowing yet either. The number of cloudy spots on the fins of the various Discus also appears to be less. Not completely gone, but slightly fewer than three days ago. I'm keeping the tank clean with 25% water changes, gravel vacuum and filter rinse every other day. Feeding them only live worms, all Discus are hungry and active. I have noticed growth in a few over the last week, however I have been feeding only live worms for the last 2+ weeks. Before that, I only fed them freeze dried worms and frozen brine shrimp. Could the better diet explain the growth in size?
Kevin.

[Merrilyn]

Good to hear that the finrot hasn't gotten any worse. You should find that the fins heal quite quickly from now on. If that level of salt is holding the finrot, then I'd leave it that, and don't increase the level.

Keep doing your waterchanges as normal, and maintain the salt level.

Hope all keeps going well for you :P

[keinert]

Hi Merrilyn,
Well, I think that the finrot is still progressing although very very slowly. A new symptom I notice is that a few Discus are flicking their fins or jerking their bodies occasionally. All are sill hungry and active, although they do seem just a little more "skidd-ish" or jumpy than a few days ago. I have treated for two days with Quick-Cure but symptoms are not diminishing. I'm doing a 50% water change now. Should I try a gram-negative medicine like Maracyn II next?
Kevin.

[Merrilyn]

Yes Kevin, time to hit it with the big guns if the salt hasn't done the trick.

Good luck.