Couple with fry -showing signs of fin rot /costia ? Pls Help

[Kosta]

Hi everyone,

I have a breeding couple (very good parents) with fry (free swimming tomorrow) isolated in a breeding tank (29,5 degrees temp ; PH 6,6 ; Amonia 0 ; Nitrites 0 ; KH 1,8 ; GH 4).

Since last friday, they began showing white edges on their fins. As they were laying eggs and everything was "normal" I didn't take any measure. (just keep the water changes as usual).

The problem is that their condition is getting worse and I'm getting very worried (for them and for the fry). They keep caring the fry as usual but their fins are getting worse...
I've included some photos (5 and 6 February).

5 Fev
http://www.megagaleria.com/pictures/Pic_7703_1.jpg

6 Fev
http://www.megagaleria.com/pictures/Pic_7703_2.jpg

http://www.megagaleria.com/pictures/Pic_7703_3.jpg

It seems to me that they are getting fin rot or something like costia. I was thinking to get them treated but I don't know what to do, without affecting the fry. Can anyone help me? Is this fin rot or something else? Any advice regarding possible treatments, is welcome.
Many thanks for all the help,

Cheers,

Kosta

PS: They are eating normally. Today they are showing normal colors (not the dark color from the photos, but their fins are a lot worse - smaller with dark edges)

[Kosta]

Hi,

Fry is free swiming (unfortunally one of the smallest in number this pair had - 30/40) and attached to parents, but male's fin is getting smaller. Any advice is welcome. Many thanks in advance.

http://www.megagaleria.com/pictures/Pic_7703_4.jpg

http://www.megagaleria.com/pictures/Pic_7703_6.jpg

Regards and again thanks,

K

By the way, I continue changing water as usual.

[DarrenJThomas]

Is it possible to remove one parent and treat. Then once treated replace the undreated fish for the health one.

Im no expert and hope someone else can adivse if you can treat for fin rot with the fry

HTH

[Kosta]

Hi (unfortunally it's me again... :cry: )


Is it possible to remove one parent and treat.
Unfortunally, I don't have any other aqua to put the parent (just the community aqua where i have my other discus). Even so, thanks for the advice. :wink:

Regarding their condition:

Fry (until now) is fine - jumping from parent to parent in turn -, parents are eating and tending fry in turns, so everything appears normal.

The problem is that now, even the female is getting white patches in her frontal and back fins and male's fin is even smaller - with black edges. 4-5 days more and it will dissappear.

I was thinking to use a product called Melafix from RENA (it's says on the box, natural product anti-bacterial) but I never used it before - so I don't have a clue to it's possible results and effects.
Any advice? Many thanks.

I change water every 2 days (10-20%) and the aqua has also an UV lamp (9w) on 12 hours/day.

Thanks,

K

[Merrilyn]

Hi Kosta, I'm concerned at the rate this finrot progressing. Soon those parents won't have any fins left, and then the bacteria will enter the body cavity and cause major problems.

I'm sad to say that at this stage, there is only one solution, and that is to remove the fry and try to hand raise them. The finrot on the parents needs to be treated with strong medication, and very quickly.

The treatment may well disturb the slime coating on the parents, so the fry will suffer. The other thing is that the fry are going suffer from the same finrot problem if left with the parents for any length of time.

Sorry I can't offer you any better solution, but I think it's important to save your breeding pair, even if it means the sacrifice of the fry.

Also, leave your UV unit on 24 hours a day. There is no need to turn it off overnight.

[Kosta]

Hi Ladyred,

First of all, many thanks for your advice.

As you can imagine, I was trying to save the fry by all means, but at this stage - as you said - I agree that I don't have any other solution than to accept it (with a lot of sorrow) and take care of the parents (which by the way are my favorite couple), as their fins doesn't show any improvements.

Today, I'm going to change 50% of water and I will be begin a treatment with Sera Baktopur (3 days course / acriflavine, methylene blue and phemyglycol) and Sera Ectopur (increases the effectiveness of Baktopur) -with UV turned off. Do you agree with this course of action ?

Again many thanks for all the help and advice.

Regards,

K

PS: Here in Portugal, Sera products are one of the most common products that we have access to. I have at home Sera Costapur (malachite green oxalate & formaldehyde solution), Sera Mycopur (acriflavine, cupric sulphate and cupric chloride), and Sera Omnipur (acridine, acriflavine, ethacridine and malachite green). I also have Metronidazol and Praziquantel (250mg/50mg). Thanks.

[Crocky]

have you tried conny crystals (potassium permanganate) as i had a mate with the same sort of thing and it seemed to work.I use 2 mg of pp and mix it with 100ml of water and I put 10ml of the mix into 100 litres of water.Please talk to other before using it as it will kill your fish if you don't use it right and I dont know if that the right dosage.

Brad

[Merrilyn]

This link may help you with dose for Potassium Permanganate if you wish to use that:-

http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/disease_medications/medicine_cabinet/potassium_permanganate.shtml

Kosta, I agree with the course of action you have outlined.

Good luck with treating your fish.

[Kosta]

Hi everyone,

First of all, many thanks for all your help and support.

I started the Baktopur/Ectopur treatment on Sunday 12 (1st dose) and I've made the 2nd dose today - Tuesday 14. Maybe it's to soon to see any improvements (I'm praying that this is the case) but I can't see any.
They are eating normally but they lost 2/3 of the fry already. The remaining ones (10-12) are aparently normal and growing well.

I've checked anything I could remember (water paramenters, aqua equipment, etc) but - in my perception - I didn't found anything that could justify this to happen (bacterial/fin rot). Could it be another type of illness/problem?

I'm thinking of changing 1/2 water tomorrow and use carbon for 24 hours afterwards. The problem is that I don't know what to do next. Should I try a 2nd treatment or should I try another type/medication? Any advice is welcome.

As I said before, this is my favorite couple (not the biggest/perfect ones I know, but they were the first couple I got since I started with Discus. I bought them with 2 months old and they are with me for about 2 years).

Again, many thanks.

Kind regards,
Kosta

[Merrilyn]

I've attached a list of links that had been posted on Simply Discus. You may find some alternative treatments there.

Finrot takes time to cure. First you must stop the progress of the disease, then allow time for the fin to regrow.

I have personally trimmed the fins on one fish that was suffering from a severe case of finrot. You can take the fish out of water and hold him in a very soft wet net. With a pair of very sharp and sterilised scissors, trim away the affected fin till you get back to healthy tissue.

The cut edges then need to be touched with an antiseptic solution which is allowed to dry for a few seconds, before returning the fish to an absolutely clean tank with a little salt added to the water (one teaspoon per 40 litres).

Source
Handbook of Fish Diseases by Dieter Untergasser, TFH Publications, Inc 1989


http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/Diseases/Fins.html
This link says that fin rot can be caused by parasites, bacteria, improper pH, bacteria or virus. Anti parasitics may be needed, antibiotics such as sulfa drugs, or adjusting the pH may be needed to correct the situation.


http://www.bettadreams.com/diseases.html
This article states that it could be caused by ammonia or nitrite, or bacteria. Treatment includes clean water, check water parameters, Kanacyn, maracyn, maracyn 2, furan 2, maroxy, or myacin.


http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=16&cat=1791&articleid=584
This article lists a few suspect bacteria, suggests stress, poor water conditions, and fish to fish spreading are causes of the disease. If it spreads to the body it can lead to death. Treatment is salt baths, genetian violet to the area, antibiotics, and removing aggressive fish.


http://www.aquaworldnet.com/faq/disease-fw.html
This article suggests first to try salt in the water. If it worsens decide if its bacterial or fungal.Bacteria is white but not cottony. If its fungus dab malachite green direct to the area, or use maroxy, or a methylene blue bath. If the fish is eating then feed antibiotic food. If not eating put antibiotic in water such as kanamycin+furanace.


http://www.dphnet.com/sub-article/cat-02/fin-rot.shtml
This article lists several bacteria that may be involved in fin rot. Prevention of the disease is stressed through clean water. Treatment is to first try salt 1 tsp/gal , and malachite green at 1 drop /gal for 4 days. Do frequent wc adding back salt and ? dose malachite green. If the disease reaches the fin root, it may never get back to normal.


http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/disease/finrot.htm
This article says that it is usually caused by stress, including poor water conditions, parasites, low O2 levels, bullying , or overcrowding. The first line of treatment is to remove the cause. Trimming out the damaged area is suggested and then antibiotics in the water.


http://www.bestfish.com/tips/042899.html
This article lists causes as aggression, chemistry including ph, nitrate , and chlorines. Also Parasite or bacteria (indicated by red streaks) Treatment = apply appropriate antiparasitic or antibiotic, good food and vitamins.


http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/disease/bacterial.htm
This article has pictures and lists possible organisms. Giving a detailed account of disease progression. Also lists baths of pp, antibiotic or chloramines-t, it lists topical antiseptics and medicated food as options. Also suggests possible use of injectable antibiotics.


http://www.pubnix.net/~spond/product/medicine.html#FinTailF
This link lists treatments as fungus cure, tc capsules, furan 2, fungus guard, or binox.


Hope this information helps.

[endless]

You're a champ merrilyn

[Merrilyn]

Kosta, how are your pair looking now. Have you managed to stop the finrot?

[Kosta]

Hi Ladyred,

First of all, many thanks for all your help, attention and care regarding my problem.

Regarding the couple: unfortunally, until now, i was unable to fully stop fin rot. The male doesn't have any fin left (back fin) and the female is also loosing the fins. Neverthless, they are a lot better than 3-4 days ago.

As i told you, I have made a full treatment with Baktopur: unfortunally with no results at all. Then I've made a full treatment with Baktopur Direct: also with no results. Day by day they were getting worse. The female itself got both eyes fully white/yellow (like pop-eye). It seemed that she had a yellow membrane over the eyes...

Then, last monday, I began a daily treatment with Seachem Kanaplex (double dose). Since then they are getting a little better (everything almost dissappeared, except the fin rot itself. It does not look like it is progressing but the fins are not regrowing yet either). Also during this week, they lost all the babies... but, to my surprise, they laid eggs again the day after !!!

I'm doing 30% of water changes by day and a double dose of Kanaplex. Today I'm also going to add some malachite green (Sera Omnipur). Let's hope (and pray) that this will help. I will give feedback.

Again many thanks for everything.
Regards,
Kosta