Breeding Problems

[mta]

Could someone please help.I have a pair of Pigeon discus,they have laid eggs and the eggs have hatched,im so excited as it it my first time i have bred discus.The problem i have is that the fry havent found there parents and are sitting at the bottom of the tank.The parents dont seem to be doing anything about it and im just concerned about how long the fry can live on there own.If someone has encountered this problem or has a resolution i would be ever so gratefull as i dont want to loose these precious babies

[Ben]

Hi,
Congratulations on getting a spawn!

Just a few questions:

*Are the fry in one area or all over the floor bottom?

*How long ago did they hatch?

*What are the water specs? PH GH etc?

*Is the tank bare bottom?

*Anything else in the tank? Like sponge filter etc?

*Have they bred before?

These few questions will be able to help find an answer for you. It could be many reasons such as wrong water quality or inexperienced parents.

Ben

[mta]

Thanks for the reply.The fry are all over the place.They hatched some time last night.Ph is at 6.6 and GH at 17ppm.The tank is bare bottom and there is a black sponge filter.The discus have bred before but by another person.I no this as i have seen them breed.I have left a light on 24/7 prior to them hatching

[marlbred05]

hi mate..
congratulations!!!

I had the same problems with my red pair....this was what i did to get them attach.

1- first you need to cover your black sponge filter/heater with white.
2- lower the water so the parents can't move up much.
3- cover the tank with white towel.

so try 1 and 2 first not work you need 3. For me I always have to do the 3 steps over to get my fry to attach. once the fry are attached for 3 days. i removed towel and fill water to normal level. Hope this work for you as well.

Good luck
kt.

[mta]

Thanks champ,Ill give it a go,but how long can the fry survive for before attaching themselves to the parents.Do the fry eventually swim around on there own after a few days or just stay were they are untill rescued

[marlbred05]

Hi mate,
nah the fry will attach with the parents for at least 1 week and a few might go away to find some food but most of the time will stay around the parents. So you may need to move them out if they are aggressive to the parents and the parents look stress and keep running away. I moved mine out around 1.5 to 2 weeks. Some people keep them attach longer.
Note this is only my experiences with my pair, may be different from different pairs. again good luck.

kt.

[Crocky]

Hi mta

This what I found the best way of getting them to attach.
1 put a pot or something big enough that the parent can hide behind.
2 place it the darkess corner of the tank or where the wriggler seem to be gathering.
3 Find up a bedside lamp and place 100watt globe in it take off the shade.
4 place the lamp 3 to 4 foot away from the tank so it makes the parents hide behind it .

It works for me.

Brad

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi MTA,

If all of the above fails over the next couple of days or so and it gets to the stage where you have to feed them or lose them you might like to try the following. Go get some Liquifry (basically infusoria) from your local FS, its about $10 for a tube and will last ages, just be careful not to over feed as it stuffs up water in quick time.

I get a plastic container and put about 10 tablespoons of tank water in it, squeeze 4 or 5 drops of Liquifry in to it and stir it up. Get a turkey baster and half fill it with liquid and squirt it gently over the fry. I've fed mine 4-6 times a day this way until the parents get the hang of it, didn't lose one. HTH
MAC

[Ben]

Some excellent infomation from everyone!

keep us posted on how the fries go mta.

Ben

[Merrilyn]

Red base parents can be very difficult to get the fry to attach. Seems they don't produce enough slime coating or something. Your fry will survive for about 5 days on their own, but it's better if they attach before that.

Try turning the tank light off, and just leave the room light on, or as Crocky suggested, get a bed lamp and leave that switched on in the room. Sometimes I wonder if the bare bottom tank with the bright tank light over the top is a bit too much for the newly hatched fry. They seem dazzled by the brightness reflecting from the bottom of the tank.

Parents would never breed in bright sunlight in the wild. They would select a shaded spot to raise their fry, and of course, in the wild, there would be no reflection from the bottom.

Keep us posted, and good luck. But definately turn that tank light out. :P

[mta]

Thanks for all the advice.Unfortunately most of the fry died at wriiggler stage at about 7 days old .They just were not attaching themselves to the parents. 4 liitle babies made it for another 5 days and then was down to 1 overnight.All the water specs checked out allright as i do 40% WC every day.I have them ia a 2.5 by 2.5 tank,Bare bottom with a sponge filter and breeding cone.Temp set at 28. Kh and Gh are minimal.No nitrates or nitrites.I go to extreme measures to keep the water perfect.
Then the last one had finally gone.Dissapointed i was as i cant see any problem due to my behalf.
A few weeks on now and the parents are constantly fighting with each other.The mother is not eating very well and is starting to thin out.She is pooing white clear droppings that are continous and is not herself.Wormed the tank but no difference.Im statring to go out of my mind as no one knows why. Is she or he dissapointed in one another for the fry dying.Has the mother taken a turn for the worst. I dont want to loose her as she is very hard to replace.

[mistakes r crucial]

From what you say treat her for Hex, metrodinazol, you can only get it from your local vet.
MAC

[Merrilyn]

Sorry to hear about the problems you've been having mta.

I also believe that your fish has Hexemita, and needs to be treated as soon as possible. My personal opinion is that stress can bring this on. Others might disagree, but as I said, I believe discus can carry this in their system for a long time, and their natural immune system keeps it under control. As soon as some form of stress happens, and it can be anything from being moved from an aquarium shop to your tank at home, or as in this case, a persistent male who is wanting to breed with an unwilling female.

This is part of a post I wrote to another member who had similar problems.

As your fish has been showing the symptoms for some time, I would use the stronger dose, and for 5 to ten days, or at least until the symptoms have gone, and the fish is back to eating normally. It's important to treat her in a hospital tank on her own, away from the male.

It is believed that the pathogen responsible for Hole in the Head (also known by a variety of other names such as Hex, head and lateral line erosion and wasting disease) is Spironucleus Vortens.

An infected fish may show one or several of the following symptoms:-

Skin lesions around the head area.
Turning dark.
Refusing to eat.
White jelly like droppings.
Muscle wasting and pinched appearance above the eyes.

The best drug to use is Metronidazole (Flagyl) which you will need to get from your local vet. Ring first to see if he will prescribe it after seeing a photo of the fish, or if he insists on seeing the fish himself.

1. Do a 30% water change.
2. Set the temperature to 30 degrees, no higher.
3. Add 250 mg Metro per 40 Litres of water. Crush tablets to fine powder and mix with water to form a paste before adding to the tank.
4. After 12 hours, do another 30% water change and repeat the dose. This should be done for a total of 3 days.
5. During treatment the tank lights should be left off. Metro is affected by light.
6. A variety of good quality, high protein food with added vitamins and minerals should be fed several times daily. Include prepared dry food, beef heart, brine shrimp, green vegetable matter and blood worms in the diet. Remove any uneaten food and keep the water very clean.

This treatment is effective for early cases of Hex. If however, your fish has been showing symptoms for a long time, or is refusing food altogether, then the treatment needs to be more aggressive.

In that case, the dose rate would be 400mg per 40 litres of tank water, with a 30% water change between treatment. Repeat every 8 hours for a maximum of 10 days if necessary. Usually 5 to 7 days will be sufficient for symptoms to disappear.

Further reading can be found in the excellent article from Discus Page Holland

http://article.dphnet.com/cat-02/spironucleus.shtml#1.%20%20Introduction%20–%20Comm on%20Symptoms

Hope that helps. Keep us posted on your progress.
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