About to use Metro and need help !!

[rupes88]

Hello

If any body has seen my posts on Discus 101 you will know that it know looks like my little fighters have Hex.

I managed to get from a vet today some 200mg metro tabs. I am about to swing into action and adminster them but in my search for directions I'm suffering from conflicting information to what is the best way to use them. As I realise using the forum may give me even more conflicting info but Im looking for a consensis.

I just rang SLS, where I bought the fish, and they said to use 1 200mg tab per 30l once a day for three days but not to do ANY w/c for 8 days. This is very different from everything else I have read.

My plan was to follow Lady Reds instructions on previous posts, which were:

1. Do a 30% water change.
2. Set the temperature to 30 degrees, no higher.
3. Add 250 mg Metro per 40 Litres of water. Crush tablets to fine powder and mix with water to form a paste before adding to the tank.
4. After 12 hours, do another 30% water change and repeat the dose. This should be done for a total of 3 days.
5. During treatment the tank lights should be left off. Metro is affected by light.
6. A variety of good quality, high protein food with added vitamins and minerals should be fed several times daily. Include prepared dry food, beef heart, brine shrimp, green vegetable matter and blood worms in the diet. Remove any uneaten food and keep the water very clean.

I have always followed LR words as gospel and I am inclined to follow what she says but when the biggest discus shop in sydney suggest something a different course poor little me who just wants his mate healthy as quick as possible is very confused.

INFO: I have a 215 tank and dont have the option to run a hospital tank.

My drawn out saga can be found at http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5603&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0


For fear of my confusion getting worse I throw myself at the mercy of the Forum.......

thanks rupes :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

[G-1000]

Mate,

If SLS said it was ok to use metro with what is left of your prazi then ok - heres what I would do.

Metro is most effective in the GUT of the fish so it is best to add it into their food.

Dosage rate commonly used is 1g metro per 100grams of food. Add this one gram into their FAVOURITE food (seeing as you want them to scoff it down and not reject it). If they are not eating it then the next best usage of the metro is 250mg per 40 litres of tank water etc (As per LR instructions).

So try adding it to their food first, if that doesnt work then add as a bath to the tank water (again as per LR instructions)

In any events when dosing with metro - tank lights must be off.

I am sure that ladyred will see this post in here and help you out.

All the best for the battlers.

G

[rupes88]

Just so I get this right, when you say 1gs metro to 100gs food I take it that means I should crush up a few tabs and weight it. Then mix that power through their food which would be frozen blood worms, is that correct ?

How often should I feed them this mixture ?

cheers

[G-1000]

Well to make it simpler...

Your discus like their frozen bloodworms you said? Ok thats cool.

Since you have 200mg tablets, I would add ONE of those tablets to 20 (TWENTY) grams of food. This way you have the same ratio as 1g metro to 100g food, but if the fish reject it - you havent lost much meds.

So get 20g bloodworms, let them thaw out - then add in one of the metro tablets, stir it through and freeze the worms (aside from those that you feed when you make it).

When you feed it - observe the fish to see if they spit them back out (or if they eat them at all).

Give that a go and see how the discus respond.

G

[Lichan]

Ideally the metro should be dissolved in liquid (as best as possbile) and then some form of pellets/dry food such as tetra bits or breeders premium should be soaked in it. Once all the liquid has been absorbed by the food, feed it to your fish. (Presuming they eat dry food) If they dont, you could try soaking blood worms in it although I dont think they would soak to much of the stuff up. You might be best to dissolve it and put it straight into the tank as per LadyReds instructions if they only eat bloodworms etc.

Pete

[rupes88]

They're not really eating that much at the moment, if at all, so I think Im going to go for the LR bath instructions.

I have heard Metro can kill off all the good bacteria in tank. Is this an issue to worry about and therefore should I be doing something to combat it ? I have Stress Zyme which helped kick off my cycle, should I use that ?

[G-1000]

Rupes

As far as metro goes it kills off primarily anaerobic bacteria. The biofilter has aerobic bacteria in it so no probs there.

Ladyred is a genius when it comes to illness and treatment so if the fish are refusing metro-food, just wait for LR to give you specific instructions if you need them.

G

Here is an 11 page long discussion of metro treatment from simply discus.
http://www.simplydiscus.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23678

[Lichan]

I dont believe Metro affects the biological filter bacteria, I have used Metro a couple of times and have not had a problem with the filter.
During use, make sure you turn out the tank lights, remove any active charcoal if you have any in use, turn off any UV, ensure the temp does not go to far over 30c and maybe add an air stone to ensure the fish get enough oxygen - they will be stressed enough.
Having said that....after treatment is finished, I would change any wool etc in the filter and maybe add some cycle or similar, just to be safe, although if all water parameters remain stable there is probably no need.

Pete

[Merrilyn]

Hello Rupes, I can certainly understand your confusion. I think actually that there a lot of "correct" ways to use metro. It's not specifically designed for fish, and there has been little scientific work done on exactly how much of the drug is absorbed by fish when they aren't eating. We are lying on some of the drug to enter the system via the gills and mucus membranes of the fish.

This is not the ideal way to treat, as metro is most effective when it goes straight into the gut. If fish are still eating, then adding metro to the food is the best way to administer treatment.

Unfortunately when fish suffer from hex, they will rarely accept food, so we have to resort to the second best method of treatment i.e. a treatment bath. The team at SLS are very experienced, and I'm sure if they have used that method, and had success, then obviously it works.

The information I have posted on this site is from a local vet, who is actually the chief vet for the Melbourne Aquarium. He ;has done some pathology work for a friend who had a difficult problem with his fish, and managed to effect a cure. I have always found his advice to be very good.

Hope that helps you make a decision. :P

[rupes88]

hank you very much LR, your post really helped.

You very kindly offer your advice and years of experience and for that I'm very grateful. SLS also offer brilliant advice have helped many us navigate through difficult waters in the past.

The problem was that my LFS made such a big thing about the importance of strictly following the instructions on how to administer metro. The funny thing was that he didnt know himself!!

As a new discus person I was under the impression I was dealing with some complicated drug that with one false move I'd wreak armagedeon in the tank.

You however make a very valuable point in saying that these meds arent designed for fish and these are methods hobbyists and breeders have developed though their own experience.

Anyway I have followed you instructions to the letter and just this morning I administered the second round of metro. I'll be keeping a close eye on them and will let you know how it goes.

Thanks again and my apologies if I came across a little impatient yesterday. I like many other users are very grateful to all the advice and help you give our fishy community.

OOO I'm looking forward to happy days in the tank ~

have a great weekend all....

Rupes

[Dee]

Heya Rupes,

Mate ... sorry to hear of the troubles your having :? it can be very disheartening to watch the lil fella's in a bad way ... I have been in the exact same position as you in the past, and if it wasn't for people like Merrilyn and other forum members I don't think I would of saved as many fish as I did ... so a big hat's off to Merrilyn and the forum !!! :D

In regard to the Metro, the main things it's used for is flagelletes .. ie Spironucleus (Hex) internal and Oodinium (Velvet) external. When I had issues with velvet and hex at the same time I used Metro in a very high dose for a period of around 10 days. This entailed me treating every 8 hours (Metro has a half life of 8 hours) this was a LOT of work, but was well worth it in the end as it kept the casualtys to a minimum. From my own experience Metro is a relatively mild med on both the fish and bio filters, I'm sure if you used enough of the stuff it could do damage, but I had no probs with a dose of 10-15ppm 3 times daily with 30% WC's prior to each dose. I was advised to WC 30% before each dose to keep the water specs stable during the process. Remember to keep the lights off during treatment and keep the room dimly lit, as Metro seems to be effected by light.

My initial problems where due to me thinking I had a flukes problem and treating with prazi. What I thought was flukes was actually Velvet, which prazi has no effect on. So my misdiagnosis cost me time and a few fish in the end. In the end I ended up going to a Fish Vet and getting a pathology done, which resulted in a Velvet diagnosis. A big thank you to Merrilyn who came to the vets with me, she was a great support and I cannot thank her enough for all her help.

In my own experience prazi seems to put the fish off their food for a day or two and should only be used if you are certain you have a flukes or worm problem.... this is my own opinion !

Anyway Rupes Im waffling now ... I wish you the best of luck with your fish and getting them back on their feet mate !

before I forget ... I was reading one of your other posts in which you said you used a Discus buffer to lower your PH and that you have a black substrate. In my opinion most black substrates have a buffering capacity and will raise your PH via raising your KH value. I would personally stop using the Discus buffer to lower your PH and check that your black substrate isnt raising your PH/KH. If this is the case your PH will be bouncing all over the place which will inturn stress your fish and lead to health issues. Just a thought mate. If your water out of the tap after aging sits in the low 7's I would go with that and not worry about buffering it down etc ... stable clean water is of the highest importance with discus IMO.

Sorry for the long winded post, just thought I would pass on some of my past experiences with keepin Discus. Keeping discus is a never ending leraning curve. In my opinion if you have healthy stock and have a basic knowledge of water chemistry you cant go wrong ... it's as much about keeping water as it is keeping discus IMO !

Cheers,

Dee :D

[Del]

Hey Rupes

How are your discus doing????

DEL

[rupes88]

Hi Guys

After a very stressful week I'm happy to report that the metro seems to have done the trick. I havent added an update till now as I wanted the meds to run their course and give the little fellas time to recover.

I am however happy to share that after the metro and the 2nd round of Prazi 4 out of the five D's are pretty much back to full strength. Its funny after seeing them in such a bad way I am very happy now to see them beating the crap out of each other at food time.

In fact since they came out of their 'Hex' coma there has been a complete power swing in the tank with one of the previously bullied turks has now snatched the position of 'Top Dog' and has become the general bully and thug of the tank. Having seen them as just black skeletons it just great to see them on the go and swimming around full power

Thanks again to every one who helped out.

Cool, now its time for me to enjoy the tank and for the D's to get on with becoming fat old happy chappies!!

cheers
Rupes

[Merrilyn]

That's great news Rupes. Sounds like they're well on the way to recovery. Hope the last little guy improves too. :P