UPDATE~HELP Discus are dark/it was flukes/ now is it hex ??

[rupes88]

Hello

Well earlier in the week I thought my discus had white spot but the spots in question seem to pretty much disappear after a 30% w/c and the fish were looking pretty good. Therefore, with the help of other DF.com members we deduced that its was just some white particles that had got stuck to their slim coat.

Since then I have been using aged water and doing a 15% water change a day.

Then two days ago the two smaller ones started to turn quite dark. They were getting bullied so I though it was just stress from that. The bullying has now stopped but they remained a dark.

Now the three other healthier are looking darker now and two of them are showing the sugar spots again, and, from time to time they are flicking on weeds. Some of them are also clamping one fin but this doesnt last for more than a couple of minutes at a time. Other times they do a mad frantic wave of one of their side fins.

After the water changes, which I do at night, the colour of all but one
seems to come back and they get very active again but by morning they are less active, looking darker again and are quite nervous when I come up to the tank - when at night they are just opposite, they cant get enough of me and are just waiting for food!

They all seem to be eating well enough, and up untill today they have been fairly active, especially at night.

My readings are:

0 am
0 nitrite
5 nitrate

29.5 degrees

In the tank (980 aqua-one 215ltr) I have:

5 turks
8 cardinals
1 blue ram
2 bristle nose
2 cory

Apart from the Turks all the other fish in the tank look great, especially the Blue Ram. They also dont appear to have white spot symptoms.

I have a bottle of 'Ickaway' by Wardleys, should I treat them for white spot ? Or do you think I have probs with my water ?

Sorry if these are basic questions but I dont have much experience of my own to draw on.

Thanks for any help and suggestions ~

Rupes

[sammigold]

I would hold off on the ickaway it sounds a little bit more of a water issue...as they seem to perk up after water change... the symptoms of flicking and fin clamping seem to point towards gill flukes more than whitespot from what I know.... but I would wait until one of our more expert forum members advise on what to do.... it shouldnt be too long!!!

Keep up with the water changes.... good luck

[sammigold]

btw.... it would probably help if you could also post your ph, gh and Kh...

[rupes88]

6.8ph

Unfortunately I don't have the kit to test the gh and Kh.....

Thanks Sammi --- re the water I'm using a 60 l aging barrel, and am using stress coat and discus buffer to bring the Ph down.

I read something LR wrote recently about using an air stone as Discus like highly oxygenated water. Would that help maybe ?

One other piece of I'm: I'm using a product called Fresh Solution by Eco System Aquariums but if anything, I think that is helping.

[rupes88]

more info ~~ I don't have a heater in my aging barrel so when I added my water it is at about 26 degrees and the tank is at 29.5........I'm only changing 30l of 215l tank.

the aging barrel ph is 6.6 and the tank is 6.8 ---- however the fish are happy with the new water once its in........its the next day when they are looking darker

[sammigold]

in regard to the airstone..... its always good to have one I think...

Im not sure whether your problems would be related to that though.... but Ladyred is the queen of the discus, I am sure she will be able to help as will many others with more experience than me I am sure... just hold on....

[goldenpigeon]

ok dont go for white spot just yet. i am curious about the other fish being ok and the discus unwell. if there was something like white spot in there all fish would have it by now.

raise the temp to 31 and add some salt at 1 teaspoon to 40L to start with just incase. add an airstone so they dont get stressed from lack of oxygen.

it wont be the temp from the water aging barrel if your only doing 15% and it is a 26 degrees.

questions:


. is the water aging barrel new?

. is the tank recieving more light than usual?

. is the tank being hit by direct sunlight?

. is the water cloudy?

. how big are the white spots?

[Ben]

rupes88,

I have sent you a PM to organise a talk on the phone.

Ben

[Ben]

As per our phone discussion i believe it is a fluke infestation.

In the meantime until you get the Praziquantel, Increase the water changes.
As i mentioned the catfish will need to be taken out of the tank to be treated.

Please keep us posted and if i can be of any more help ,you have my number.

Cheers
Ben

[rupes88]

Once again Ben thanks for all your help.

I sure many of us grateful think to you, Lady Red and all the other regular advisors........ big thank you for all the time and care you give us.

I shall keep you all up to date on how the Prazi treatment goes.

cheers

Rupes

[rupes88]

Ok to action ~~~~~~

At 12:00 I did a 50% w/c, took out the cats and added the Prazi. I also bought an air stone and added the in the hopes a bit extra O2 will help.

My LFS agreed with Ben's diagnoses. The LFS said he tended to think it was more a skin fluke problem.

Anyway for those interested I will up date you on their progress

[rupes88]

FYI the meds I'm using are Aqua Master Fluke & Tapeworm Tabs

25 in a bottle cost $20.55 from my LFS - im sure they are cheaper online but I wanted to move on this straight away.

The instructions say to use i tab per 20l......

finger crossed

[rupes88]

7 hours into treatment

~~~ not to good so far. Two are looking ok with fins up and a bit of colour but three are completely black now. The black ones are swimming around a bit though and all 5 discus ate well this afternoon.

If I don't see much improvement by tomorrow morning should I try something else ?

How fast does Prazi take to kill flukes ? is it in the first 48hrs or over the course of the next 7 days ?

Sorry if I sound impatient - its just that the back ones are worrying me :?

[Del]

How are they looking today Rupes?

Did you get hold of SLS yesterday? I think they are closed today being Wednesday...

[rupes88]

UPDATE~~~

10 hrs after treatment-

Last night I started to see some very encouraging signs on the three more healthy discus. They were swimming around with red eyes and body 85%of their normal body colour. The other two were blacker than ever but were still swimming around.

They all had a moderate go at the frozen blood worms but were not as crazy for it as they usual are.

I also noticed a lot of pooing going on. This made me realize that over the past 10 days since I bought them I havent seen many poos. Maybe constipation ?. Anyway the poos last night were a little strange. Some of them had like messy balls of poo coming out. And some looked like they had three poos coming out at once, both types took a long time to fall. I also noticed there were some whitish clear tubes of poo and there were also some good old fashioned healthy poos well. Do you think some of them may of had worms?? Will Prazi treat it proplerly or should I pursue a course of other worm meds ?

wow I dont think I have ever used the word poo so many times in one paragraph.

The flicking on weeds had slowed down but they were still doing mad waving of the their side fin every now and then.

Anyway, I went to bed feeling pretty confident about my healthier three but was still concerned about the two sicker ones we now call the Twins.

TODAY

When I got up at 6am keen to check their progress the healthier three were dark again and the twins were black, very thin with a big stomachs. None of them ate breakfast (discus granuals). The twins weren't active at all and the healthy three were swimming but looked pretty sad.

Lunch~

Nobody ate lunch except the sickest twins (strange) who had a good go at the discus dinner. Discus dinner is the least favorite of their food. Two of the healthier ones were showing a bit of colour and the twins were still looking grim and black. They were all swimming around together.

17:30hr

The healthier three are showing some colour but two are still dark. One is now back to normal enough to see the juvenal stress bars that it had when I bought him. All three have their fins are up.

The twins are looking really BLACK. I have also noticed that one of them as a small fury white spot on its side which is the size of nib on a 'ball point pen', there is also with white stuff either side of the spot (i dont know what the #^$& this is )

They are however are still swimming around together and all the flicking has stopped but the mad, extremely fast waving of one of the side fins continues from time to time.

So thats where me and my little friends are at. They are sad and so am I.

As a beginner Id appreciate any suggestions. Especially what to do for the twins.

Am I being impatient ? When you use Prazi what are the general time scales for recovery ? Does this sound like HEx ?

One question, is it normal for discus colors to come out much more at night ?

Thank you ~ I'm off back to the camp I have set up by the tank.

__ :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

[rupes88]

I'm sorry I have the laptop next to the tank....i can't resist

The strange poos have started again. Two of them (one healthy and a twin) are pooing shaggy ball like things that they have trouble 'cracking' off (so to speak) and getting rid of.

Saying that there is ok coulor in two of the healthier ones and the twins are active.

One new things is they all seemed to be nibbling the drift wood and some plants ??

Is there any reason why they would improve at night ? There room is quiet and their is no direct sun light - lights go on from 14:00 -00:00.

[rupes88]

I must sound mad now but for the past two hour the healthy three had GREAT colour back, almost to 100%, even one of the twins had colour starting to emerge out of the black. I was stoked !!

Then just 10 minutes ago I feed them frozen blood worms. As soon as I did that they all went completely dark again and started feasted with loads of energy!!!!! What's with these guys....i think they are trying to play with my mind.

Its ten minutes later and the healthy three have got their colour back. Its like im watching squids with all these colour changes. Is this normal, the changes im talking about seem pretty extreme.

...help, please....

[Proteus]

I am at a bit of a loss, however give me some time to read over things in some detail, and allow others to see what is happenning and hopefully we might have some answers soon

[rupes88]

Do you think the fact that I have black substrate may be causing the discus to be going so dark/black all they time ?

Still camped out in front of tennis and sick discus :roll:

[Proteus]

The substrate should have no affect at all.

Have you tested the water for anything like pH, etc...

[sammigold]

I had a sick blue diamond a while ago and he did the same thing re: colour changes..... one minute he would be really dark hiding under a piece of wood then he would come out and swim around really bright with bright red eyes and I would think he was getting better and then he would go dark again and then a couple of times just before a poo he would go really really pale and start having spasms in the middle of the tank... I really thought I was going to lose him.... (theres a thread in the emergency room somewhere with photos of him and an update in illness &meds section of afterwards)

Anyway I am not saying that your fishies have what mine had but I do understand what you mean about the colour changes and about how distressing it is to watch when you are new to discus...you become obsessed with their colour... i still am...

ps... mine survived after not eating and colour changing and funny tumour looking thing and funny poos over 2-3week period ... so stay positive!!! One of these guys will be able to work it out for you and help... they did with me.... :)

[G-1000]

Rupes Mate,

I know exactly what is going on with your guys (I had a similar experience about a year ago now).

Ok

You are dosing praziquantel - GOOD !

This medication is used to rid both gill flukes and tapeworms. But I have some critical things you need to be doing as well.

From what you have described with the poop and appetite, I personally think you also have a worm problem of some sort. The medication will purge the discus of the tapeworm via defacation (it will poo it out). This is why you would see some very strange looking poop. Now I must point out that worms are highly transmissible/infectious and can easily be transmitted to one another. On the plus side - you are getting results with the current treatment, so it is quite possible you have tapeworms aswell.

What I think is happening is that you come up with the correct dosage for treating them - but you havent physically removed the worms/poo after it has come out. If you dont gravel vac the worms out of the tank - they will re-infect. This is why I suspect that when you fed bloodworms and they got "sick" after very quickly (they may well have ingested worms as well, whether the worms were dead or alive).

I think you mentioned that there were 2 discus that had a swollen appearance to the stomach? This MAY also be related to purging out the worm.

So essentially, aside from your regular water changes, you will also need to perform a 30% water change 7 days after the initial treatment. At this point it would be wise to re-administer the wormer, so that reinfestation isnt an option and also to make sure that the fish are definately cleared of flukes.

If you still find that your fish are obviously constipated (you said the "twins" have big stomachs) - then using epsom salts at the rate of 1 tablespoon per 20L will assist - I would only do this if you think it is totally necessary.

Essentially - you have done the right thing, it should be ok. Just do your best for them.

As I said - I had a similar episode about a year ago and it worked out fine.

G

[Del]

Hang in there Rupes - I know about camping out by the side of the tank too - I have soooo been there!

Basically you started the Prazi this Tuesday at 1pm so it looks like it is all getting poo'd out now so they will be a bit stressed...


So essentially, aside from your regular water changes, you will also need to perform a 30% water change 7 days after the initial treatment. At this point it would be wise to re-administer the wormer, so that reinfestation isn’t an option and also to make sure that the fish are definitely cleared of flukes.

Exactly G - the instructions are that you do a 25% water change (this means gravel clean too) and clean out the filter media after 48 hours - which means Today at 1pm.

Leave them for 7 days with no water changes - Tuesday 24th - then repeat the medication.

You will notice that about a week after you have water changed and gravel cleaned for the 2nd time, they will look like they are picking up.

My little guy took almost a fortnight to recover after I finished the two doses, but keeping it slow is the key...

I know it's hard and the hours drag when you're waiting, but if your water parameters are right - just let the medication do its thing.

What's your PH, Nitrate, Nitrite and Temp?

DEL

[G-1000]

After realising my post above was a bit long-winded and too explanatory...

Basically, you need to administer the medication, which will remove the majority (never all) of the worms and flukes. When they are removed from the body of the discus, they go to the bottom of the tank and if consumed - even though usually dead - they will still cause symptoms (I would assume due to their toxins or physical obstruction).

Nonetheless, a 25 to 30 percent water change is needed after a week, at which point the medication is dosed in full again (this is equivalent to a "knockout" blow - hence why it is crucial). When changing that 25-30% water you MUST gravel vac to remove the dead worms and any remnants of flukes at the bottom.

After that all will be fine. You have done well.

G

[rupes88]

UPDATE 15:30 19/ jan

As per usual they were all dark this morning and the twins were black as ever. None of them were very active and none ate breakfast.

At 13:00 I did a 25% w/c as instructed on the Prazi bottle . Since then they have been swimming around all with their fins up. The only one has any decent sign of colour.

I just feed three of them discus granules and three of them had a go but spat out the food, they did however keep this up.

Whilst they are active I have two big concerns. Apart from their situation over the past week I'm now noticing that two or three of them have like a with patch on their side, its quite small but noticable.

Also on the most healthy guy I think little pits are starting to appear just below and to the side of his eye. They aren't breaking the skin yet but they are loosing colour and like like they may break through if it continues. I've never seen it before but as Ben mentioned all this stress with the flukes (and possibly worms) it could bring on HEX. I followed this link http://article.dphnet.com/cat-02/spironucleus.shtml#1.%20%20Introduction%20%96%20Co mmon%20Symptoms

That LadyRed ran on a sticky and going down the check list it looks like I'm going to have to deal with HEX now ....excuse me for a moment
F^$&^$ *&%*& *#%^$&$)( ### ok I feel a little better now. Should I get some metro ?

Re the poo, I've seen a few clear whitish hangers this afternoon but no poo fest like last night.

Good news -- yes there is a little......I think the Prazi has had some effect as the fish have stopped their flicking as well as their mad fin waving. Also their breathing has slowed considerably. Plus the twins don't have such a swollen belly any more.

By the way since I bought the little fellas I've been using a product that the people at SLS suggested, its called called Fresh Solution....it is a multipurpose additive and (supposed to) contain minerals and multivitamins. Anybody know this product ? should I keep using it whilst they are ill ?

16:00

0 am
0 nitrite ...or tiny tiny slight trace
5 nitrate
7ph
29.5 degrees

The battle continues........... :cry:

[G-1000]

Ok

Heres my 2 cents (I would give Ben a ring if you have his number).

The treatment is slowing down their breathing, fins are sticking out etc - this indicates results. So dont despair this is good. I would leave the medication in the tank for the next 48 hours then perform a 50% water change with aged water.

As far as the white poop and the pits on the head go - this is hole in the head disease / lateral line erosion. You seem to have caught this fairly early on so the prognosis is good. I would agree with SLS re: additives since HITH disease has also been postulated to occur due to mineral / vitamin deficiencies not just due to hexamita/spironucleus.

Now - if the poop gets whiter and more of it is produced - you will need to dose with metronidazole. It is much easier if they are still eating (since administering in ther favourite food is better). Nonetheless - just hang in there for the next 48 hours after dosing the medication again and get in touch with Ben to see what he thinks when you can.

You are going well. Discus are tough creatures, sometimes they just need a little help to shake off disease.

G

[rupes88]

Thanks G for your help...

Dont worry I'll be watching :wink:

Most of them haven't eaten today but their fins are up. Between resting behind rocks they are still swimming around. All are dark except for one, and just to confuse things, he is the one with the pits around the eyes. He is swimming about the most, note: before they got sick this guy was by far the alpha male, so I think he is a fighter.

[sammigold]

just a question to g1000

doesnt he still have to leave the meds in for 7days and do next water change and redose to ensure no reinfestation?

I know other discus showing signs of hih and will need treatment but isnt it still important that the other meds are dosed as per directions before anyother treatments are started....? just asking as not sure...

[G-1000]

It is recommended that the med be left in for 7 days first up, then re-dose for 48 hours then thats it.

But in cases where the discus has been very sick (potential HITH for example), I have found that it is safe to dose for 5 days first time around, then re-dose 48 hours after.

So in this case if it were me, I would dose again this sunday (not on tuesday next week) and then after 48 hours from sunday (on tuesday) the prazi treatment is done.

Sammi - you are quite right re: 7days, re-dose, then 48 hours. This is just what I do and in this situation, if there is a chance the discus wont eat (i.e get weaker due to no food), and you MAY need to perform a metro course - then the fish will be very weak by the time metro is finished (if required). So, in this case speeding up the initial dose duration by 2 days will ensure a better recovery for the fish and reduce treatment time. But the knockout re-dose must be 48 hours long to rid the tank of worms.

ATTN: MODS - Please correct me if speeding up the initial worming dose by 2 days (from 7 to 5 days) is detrimental to the fish in any case. As I have said I have done this myself without any problems.

G

[rupes88]

Hi ALL

The fish are looking a little worse today. Last night I saw for the first time a trail of mucus poo about 8cm long coming from the discus with the 'chipped paint' look around the eyes. So with that Im pretty sure its hex now.

They all ate last night really well but today nobody is eating. It strange they will always have a nibble at night but nothing through the day. Today three are jet black and staring at the back of the tank and not moving.

So I'm just off to the vets to pick up the metro. So my plan is to start the metro this afternoon and following LR's suggested treatment I'll run it for three days from this afternoon. This will take me through till monday. I was planning then to do the last prazi again on tuesday.

These are LR's suggested course (see illness section "hole in head')

1. Do a 30% water change.
2. Set the temperature to 30 degrees, no higher.
3. Add 250 mg Metro per 40 Litres of water. Crush tablets to fine powder and mix with water to form a paste before adding to the tank.
4. After 12 hours, do another 30% water change and repeat the dose. This should be done for a total of 3 days.
5. During treatment the tank lights should be left off. Metro is affected by light.
6. A variety of good quality, high protein food with added vitamins and minerals should be fed several times daily. Include prepared dry food, beef heart, brine shrimp, green vegetable matter and blood worms in the diet. Remove any uneaten food and keep the water very clean.

How does that sound ?

... thanks to sammi and G -- what do you think ?

By the way one of my big Peppermint Bristle Nose died today. It got me thinking that they all got sick two days after I put him in.....could he have brought the disease in ? ------ in future ill be running a quarantine set up

cheers

Rupes ~ and my five little battlers

[G-1000]

By the sounds of it you also have a hexamita infection so I agree there.

In all seriousness I would give Ben a call, since I havent had experience in mixing the prazi with metro. Ask your vet in particular to see if administering prazi and metro at the same time is advisable (they may be highly toxic if mixed together).

Patience is important. Give your vet all the info he needs to help you out.

G

[sammigold]

am agreeing with G there.... ask your vet about the mixing of the meds...

in regard to the B/N it is a possibility unfortunately quarantine is the way to go... (says me, who allowed my man to talk me into popping new pleco straight into mine!!! :oops: guess I better hope for the best...) :whip naughty sammi!!!!

good luck mate! sounds like you are having alot of bad luck there!

[Ben]

Rupes, i will talk to you tomorrow (sat)

Ben

[Pharian]

i shall say a wee prayer to the fish-god this evening... if he doesnt fix it by morning ill send round the boys to sort him out ;)

[Ben]

Rupes any update on the fish mate?

keep us posted.

Cheers
Ben

[rupes88]

sorry Ben....... I posted the update over in the emergency room thread I was running ~~ Thank the fish gods, all is good !!

Hi Guys

After a very stressful week I'm happy to report that the metro seems to have done the trick. I havent added an update till now as I wanted the meds to run their course and give the little fellas time to recover.

I am however happy to share that after the metro and the 2nd round of Prazi 4 out of the five D's are pretty much back to full strength. Its funny after seeing them in such a bad way I am very happy now to see them beating the crap out of each other at food time.

In fact since they came out of their 'Hex' coma there has been a complete power swing in the tank with one of the previously bullied turks has now snatched the position of 'Top Dog' and has become the general bully and thug of the tank. Having seen them as just black skeletons it just great to see them on the go and swimming around full power

Thanks again to every one who helped out.

Cool, now its time for me to enjoy the tank and for the D's to get on with becoming fat old happy chappies!!

cheers
Rupes

[Ben]

well done Rupes on conquering their illness!

cheers
Ben