Constipated, Worms, No but a major illness

[Proteus]

Over the past 2 weeks I have been trying to treat my Bunga Raya (Super Red Melon) for what first appeared to be a case of constipation.

He was very bloated, yet was still eating and the faeces were a good colour (nice and dark), so I fasted him for 1-2 days, treated the tank with Epsom salts then started feeding him back up on Brine & Mysis Shrimp (not too bulky). That did not produce any results.

Second step was to catch him, and feel his stomach with my fingers, his anal passage did not seem to be blocked (as there was remnants of faeces visible) however his abdomin area was very solid, which led me to think it may be worms (even though his faeces were not white).

Next step was to treat with both Prazi & Promethyasul, still no results, although he is not interested in food now at all (I fasted him for a few days when Prazi was first introduced).

Over the past 12-24 hours, the skin/scales in the abdomin area is starting to rot away, and both Pectoral fins have also started to rot away.

He is still breathing normally, and is trying to stay upright, although with little or no pectoral finnage left he is struggling somewhat.

I have attached some images to try and display how things look, please excuse the poor quality as I didnt want to cause him any further stress, so I took what photos I could.

Has anybody seen this before, or have an idea on the most appropriate method of attack? I have most drugs or treatments available, so that is not an issue, it is just a matter of what I should try without making things worse.

Thanks in advance, as I am scratching my head over this one.

[goldenpigeon]

i am not sure what is up with is bloat. i would definetly start treating with metro to control his fin and body damage. some salt might help too.

HTH and hope he gets better soon!

[Proteus]

Salt has been used for the past 2 weeks, Metro is on standby

[Merrilyn]

Proteus, as per our phone conversation, I believe this to be a tumour. The fact that the fish is still passing droppings, indicates that the tumour is not in the gut or digestive tract, but perhaps in the liver or other nearby organ.

I believe that the white appearance of the skin, and the rotting is due to the circulation being impared due to the extreme tension that the skin is under, as the tumour grows in size. The rotting of the pectoral fins, I believe is due to the same thing. Lack of circulation due to the pressure caused by the tumour.

I'd love to be proven wrong, by someone with more medical knowledge than myself, but I'm sorry to say, that I think the fish has a very slim chance of recovery.

Wish I could be of more help Ro. :(

[Proteus]

Thanks again Red

What does have me baffled is how quickly things have changed. This morning he had both pectoral fins in top shape, now they are all but gone. And apart from the wound/affected area, he looks totally fine, and is breathing normally???

[Ben]

I think you are right Merrilyn for it maybe a tumour, but could it be a tumour developed from an internal worm cyst?

Proteus you mentioned you have treated with Promethyasul and Praziquantel, What about trying a broader medication against worms like fenbendazole or Levamisole?

If it is a tumour it could have developed from a cyst such as a worm egg.

Would such a medication help this problem?

True diagnosis could be made by an autopsy....

Sorry i can not be of any further help..

Ben

[Proteus]

Thanks Ben, I failed to mention in my original post, aside from the Promethyasul, I have used a Broad Spectrum medication as well (not Levamisole though).

Update, he hasnt worsened at all, so today is the day of reckoning, I will be placing him in a <50L tank (smaller therefore more control) and giving him a full dosage of Metro. From there???

[fishgeek]

feacal sample and microscopy would give you the answer on worms and intestinal protozoa, then you could either treat or stop wasting meds on that one(praziquantel is cestocidal-tapeworm killer, levamisole is nematodicial- round worm killer, so is fenbendazol)

the skin looks like secondary, could he have been damaged with the abdomenal plapation? then secondary bacteria, though salt should be enough if that was all, maybe fish is worn out with primary disease and skin lesion is secondary

swelling in the abdomen with normal feacal passage and no parasites seen in feacal sample's
doesn't leave you with too many nice answers

as already suggested growths from tb to cancer are possible
i would second ladyred's poor outlook

sorry
andrew

[Proteus]

Thanks for the advice Andrew, it is much appreciated.

I am pretty much resigned to the fact that it will be a battle to keep this guy alive, however I wont give up until the time comes where I feel he needs to be euthanased (unless he passes first).

If I can get a faecal sample today I will try and capture it, as I have access to a good microscope.

Other than that, fingers are crossed... I have treated some very sick Discus before and had them turn around, so there is some hope, yet this is totally strange, being that if you ignored the abdomin area, he looks totally healthy and happy...

ug

[Proteus]

The serious treatment has begun

He is now in a 75L QT tank

I have used 60% tank water (from where he was) and 40% new aged water. (tank is only appox 70L full)

The tank has been dosed with 700mg of Metro, 300mg of Prazi plus 2tbsp of Aquarium Salt, temp = 29c.

He is not passing any faeces, so I cant investigate that any further, for the moment.

[fishgeek]

metronidazol is not that soluble and will do better if can be given in food or with an oil carrier coating food

andrew

[Proteus]

I dissolved it in tank water for over an hour prior, when it went in the tank it was nothing more than a fine powdery mist.

Food is not really an option at the moment as he is showing no interest in it, however if that changes, I will be adding the metro to the food prior to it going into the tank. (thanks for the heads up anyway :D )

[Merrilyn]

Proteus, any change this morning?

I'm even wondering if this is a fluid filled cyst, and you may be able release some of the fluid with a syringe and fine needle ?????

At least we'd know what we're dealing with. If it's a solid mass, it won't release fluid, then putting the fish to sleep would be the kindest option. If however, it is fluid filled, relieving the pressure may allow normal function to return to the other organs.

[Proteus]

Water change done, and re-medicated at the same dosage,

His injuries have not improved, yet he is active and breathing normally

[Ben]

Lets see what Mr Soh thinks.

[Andrew Soh]

:D Hi Guys,

Sorry for not visiting your forum for some time...quite busy so that little time was spent on dph :wink: .

I have looked through the photos. It is not caused by protozoans nor worms. I strongly believe it is caused by bacteria.

As someone mentioned, it may be from an organ...most likely infection of the liver. I agree and the bacteria have multipled in the cavity and with liver damage...water retention resulting in bloating.

But the infection did not stop there but proceeded to infect the surrounding tissue..thus the wall. The whitish tissues are dead cells due to the infection and it seems that the infection is running along the ribs.

Though I cannot affirm the specific bacterium, a bacterium responsible for Septicemia may be the culprit...that is why all the fins are melting away.

Anyway, since your discus has reached this stage, try this:

1) Put him into clinical tank
2) Add 200gm of salt to 100 litre of water (2ppt)
3) Add Chloramphenicol @ 2.5 gm to 100 litre of water (use 40c warm water to dissolve it first) for 12 days. If water change is required, redose to strength. You can also use erythromycin.
4) Feed medicated food 3 times a day at bare minimum making sure he eats all up. (1gm Chloramphenicol to 50 gm of beefheart)
5) Maintain temperature @ 30c
6) Give normal good aeration. Not too strong and stressful. Not too small as warm water has less air.
7) Maintain pH at 5.5 to 6 at all time.
8) If you see fungus growing on the dead tissue, use MB.

Try and see what happens.

Happy New Year to All,
Andrew :angel

[Proteus]

Thanks for that Andrew.

He is already in a QT/clinic tank (75L) and I am coming up to the third day of treatment using Metronidazole. Once I finish that course of medication I will give your recommendation a try.

Thank you very much

[Andrew Soh]

Sure, if you wish to continue with your metronidazole treatment even though Metro's antibacterial spectrum is very narrow.

Why not add in no.5 to no.8 in your present treatment?

*I am just thinking.....if metronidazole happens to be ineffective against this bacterium. By the time you finish the metronidazole course of treatment, the discus condition might reach chronic stage.....by then...whatever antibiotic is too late..not even my suggestion.*

Take care,
Andrew :angel

[Proteus]

The temp is already at 30-31c

I have slowly lowered the pH down from 6.9 to 6.2, I will take it down a little further after the next water change.

Some of the skin shedding has stopped and it looks like the skin is repairing its structure, although the swelling has not changed.

Tomorrow I will be sourcing the medications you suggested and start on them.

On another positive note, he was passing some faeces not long ago, it wasnt much and was totally transparent, but I guess it is a sign that his digestive system and/or bowell is still functional in some capacity.

[Andrew Soh]

That's good,

Don't worry....as long as the belly doesn't increase further in size.

Sice you are using metro, add it in beefheart or soak bloodworm in it @ 100ml water with 1.5gm metro for 1 hour in chiller. No live worms please.

Take care,
Andrew

[fishgeek]

Egg Associated Inflammation

supposed degeneration of egg's that are not expelled properly
not known as to why it occurs so no treatment suggested yet

i guess just another reason for firm abdo and external lesions

here is a photo from a zebrafish research page http://zfin.org/zirc/disMan/Disease_images/EAI_ulcer.jpg


Clinical Signs and Gross Pathology. Female zebrafish typically present with an enlarged or distended abdomen. The ovaries grossly appear as a solid, tumor-like mass in the visceral cavity. In several cases the mass will cause adhesion to the wall of the visceral cavity, and ultimately a free raft of scar tissue will be extruded through the body wall and skin of the fish. This results in a large ulcer with a whitish center on the lateral flank of the fish.
Control and Treatment. The precise cause of EAI is unknown. Because abnormal egg retention is a suspected cause, we recommend timely spawning of females. Holding males and females together may also aid in preventing abnormal egg retention. Striping egg bound females has been tried, but apparently is not reliable for curing the problem.

cut and pasted from the above site
sounds a bit like an endometritis type situation for women
the best way to rule this out would be to laugh at my efforts and tell me it is a male fish
andrew :?

[Proteus]

Thanks guys.

I have finished the Metro treatment, no real change, however the fish has not worsened in any way.

I am now on Day 1 of the treatment method that Andrew Soh suggested, so fingers crossed that may give some results.

In regards to the egg retention thing, I am 75% sure he is a boy... lol

However I did see him fertilise eggs from one of my other fish, but they didnt get to wriggler stage (they did appear to be fertile) - (the eggs were eaten due to the 17 other large Discus in the same tank, 6 pairs, & 5 strays or gigalos... )

[Merrilyn]

What a great forum this is. I just love this place. Thanks Andrew and Andrew for your great advice and your willingness to help, and to Ben and Junior for adding your thoughts too. This must be the most helpful forum on the web.

Proteus, we all hope you have a successful outcome with this fish. Good Luck.

[Proteus]

Red, as I have said to you in private, I pretty well know my stuff when it comes to illnesses etc, but this had me stumped.

And to recieve the advice and assistance so far is mindblowing, not only from an appreciative perspective, but with this being available to others, it may just save a few fish from getting worse or dying.

thank you...

[Mulisha]

GOOD LUCK Proteus with your fish hope he comes through this and after this is hopefully all over will that fish have a scar were that bacteria infection was or whatever it is ?

Hope it all goes well with him :thumb

[Andrew Soh]

Hi all,

This is from Andrew to Andrew.

Though the zebra fish has an ulcer, the true cause is unknown as it is only a suspected egg related problem. In my view, the zebra fish is caused by first, heavy protozoan infection (maybe costia)...followed by secondary infection (possible aeromonas hydrophila). When the female is loaded with eggs, there is a tendency for the scales around where the eggs are to be pushed outward allowing primary infestation of the skin to be readily accessible.

As I have dissected many mature discus of both sexes, the milt sag and the ovary is positioned all the way back...even more back than the anus. But from the discus photos, the damaged area is nearer to the pectoral fin....

This concludes it has nothing to do with the eggs.

If my method is tried, please do not save the salt or the medication or underdose......pleaseeeeeee. A hundred thanks...

Take care,
Andrew

[fishgeek]

cheers
i have a 1 hour , it was university and i may have skipped it :D , theoretical knowledge of fish anatomy from the early 90's
so the suggestion of egg's being no where near the problem is interesting to learn

and i have never kept discus , i just know some medicine for dog's and cats and keep fish so this is a nice learning curve for me

andrew

[Proteus]

If my method is tried, please do not save the salt or the medication or underdose......pleaseeeeeee. A hundred thanks...

Dosed exactly as per instructed, maybe a fraction more :wink:

[Andrew Soh]

Thank you Proteus :thumb

Andrew :angel

[Proteus]

Update: Things have improved marginally, although he is still very swollen, with some skin irritation.

I have treated as per Andrews recommendations twice now.

He is eating and otherwise looks ok (if you ignore the gut and one pectoral fin).

He has been getting daily water changes, with some salt added and the pH kept at approx 6.4-6.5

[Andrew Soh]

Important to feed medicated feed since he is eating. You can change antibiotic maybe to erythromycin.

Andrew

[Merrilyn]

That's so good to know Proteus. I hope he continues to improve.

[Andrew Soh]

Do not overfeed. Feed in moderation so as not to exert pressure on the stomach cavity.

Andrew :angel

[marg]

Great to hear that he appears to be on the mend Proteus. Hope this continues.

Marg.

[Del]

He sounds like a fighter Proteus. Hope all goes well with the little guy.

[Proteus]

Update :cry:

After 2 months of trying everything possible, including giving this guy his own tank, then putting him back with his buddies I made the difficult choice of putting him out of his pain.

Over the past few weeks he has found it extremely difficult to eat with the swelling affecting his movement, and his balance as of late had been terrible.

As much as I was prepared to give him as long as was needed, I felt it wasnt fair to keep in in this state, given that every type of medication and treatment had been attempted.

So, into a large container of tank water with a lid he went, and into the freezer he was placed. It didnt take long, and it was all over.

May this little fighter rest in peace.

[marg]

Really sorry to hear of your loss Proteus.

From reading your Posts I know that you tried everything possible -so sad that you didn't win in the end, but I beleive that you did the most humane thing possible.

Regards,

Marg.

[sammigold]

So sorry to hear about that!!!
It is so hard to make that final decision! I have always found it tough to close that freezer door... i find myself apologising profusely and wishing them well in fish heaven and saying goodbye and my heart falls to the bottom of my feet... but sometimes it is the kindest thing to do :cry:

Sounds like he put up a good fight..

My thoughts go out to you!