Advice Needed re Worming Methods

[marg]

I am wondering if anyone on the Forum can provide me some information regarding the worming of my Fish, and have a few questions :

I have two 4 foot tanks -

One tank contains 4 large Discus and 1/2 dozen Bristlenose Catfish

One contains 3 medium Discus, one large Knife fish, one large Clown Loach and 1/2 dozen Bristlenose Catfish

I have purchased some Aquamaster Paracide and a bottle of Nilverm Pig & Poultry Wormer (Active constituent Levamisole)

NOW to the fun part :roll: :roll: :

I want to worm my Fish and would like to know :

(a) An economical way of worming them all (I know most of you have large tanks (Ladyred especially!!), so how do you worm your Fish economically?)

(b) Will the Paracide and Levamisole harm the Bristlenoses, Knife Fish and Clown Loach

(c) Can you use both Products together, or should you allow a break between each treatment and if so, how big a time frame between treatments?


I would really appreciate some advice regarding this - and I'm sure a lot of other members would too.

LADYRED, BEN, PROTEUS, GOLDEN PIGEON - ANY LEARNED PERSON - PLEASE HELP :D :D :D !!.

[Ben]

Hi Marg,
Merrilyn will have some great advice when using Levamisole.

I have only used Praziquantel, which was primary used to treat flukes. Praziquantel treats tape worm in fish and i know it is nasty stuff when using it in a tank with cats and loaches!

I have never deemed it necessary to treat for intestinal worms as i monitor my fish and keep an eye on there passed poo's.

Sorry i could not be more help....

Ben

[marg]

Thanks Ben, I will wait and see what Merrilyn says.

My Fish are all healthy - no problems there - but to keep them healthy I thought I'd better do some worming.

I seem to recall Merrilyn saying somewhere that she worms every 6 months regularly - so I thought seeing as she does this and she has had Discus for so long perhaps I should put a bit more effort in :D :D .

[Merrilyn]

Hi Margot,

Worming is something I do regularly. I treat for gill flukes and tape worm about every 6 months, or before I put a pair in the breeding tank.

The most economical way to treat your fish is to use a smaller hospital tank to worm them. Treat them, and leave them in the tank for two days, then return them to the main tank. When it's time to repeat the treatment, return them to the hospital tank for treatment.

Don't use both types of worm preparation at once. Remember they are a form of poison, and you don't want to do more harm than good.

I have heard of people having problems when worming bristlenose cats, so it's something I wouldn't do.

[marg]

Okay Merrilyn, I have a spare hospital tank, so I will use that.

Will the Paracide and Levamisole clear up everything (that's if there is anything there!!), or is there anything else that I will need to use?, and also, after I treat with say the Levamisole, how many days should I leave it before I can treat with the Paracide?

I will leave the Bristlenose, Clown Loach and Knife Fish alone - I'm pretty attached to them and would hate to lose them.

Thankyou very much for your help,

Regards,

Marg.

[chris]

Sorry to jump into this thread Ive got a little method I use.
I have a 5 foot tank and I feed my discus with one of those wormer feeders, those plastic things, when the discus are feeding I pour it on there heads :lol: the parzi goes straight into there Gills and they also may eat a little.
I mix 2 tablets to a glass of tank water.
Seems to work for me.
Levamisole is great for treating Caprilla and what ever else it treats but regular worming, with Prazi keeps them healthy and water changes of course.
Thats my opinion :oops:

[marg]

Thanks Chris, sounds like a great way - if I only had Discus. I'm worried about the Bristlenose, Knife Fish and Clown Loach, so I'll have to use the Hospital Tank.

Makes you wonder though - Do these fish get worms etc., and seeing as you can't use these products on them, what do you use?

Stands to reason that if you treat the Discus, then put them back in the Tank, aren't the others likely to reinfect them?

Maybe we need to speak to Andrew Soh, Kev Koi or someone similar for some more in depth advice- lets hope that they pick up this thread. It would be interesting to hear their advice on how to worm, what to use, etc.

[mtchye]

Hi,

I've treated lots of catfish with levamisole and prazi and at the recommended dose rates with no problems, these include normal and peppermint bristlenoses, clown and other loaches, L104, etc.

Wouldn't worry about using those 2 products. Not sure what is in Paracide though if it is a formaldehyde based med you would want to be really really careful.

HTH
Vincent

[marg]

Paracide treats Anchor Worm, Skin & Gill Flukes and Fish Lice - on the bottle it says "each tablet contains Trichlorfon 20mg (an anticholinesterase compound)" Dosage rate 1 tablet per 40 litres.

[mtchye]

Trichlorfon is a very toxic organophosphate similar to that used in pesticides. If you have access to levamisole and praziquantel these are much safer alternatives. Otherwise, make sure you get the dosage as close as possible, i.e. do not overestimate your water volume as it will be lower due to gravel, ornaments and other objects in the water. I wouldn't really risk it on catfish though...

[marg]

I have sent pm's to both Andrew Soh and Kev Koi requesting their input on this subject, so will wait and see what they have to say.

I don't intend to worm anything other than the Discus- and even then I won't do anything until I know what I'm doing is right - love my fish too much to take chances.

Thanks for your suggestions.

Marg.

[mtchye]

No problems Marg. Just a Q, why is it that you want to worm only your discus? If they are in a tank with other fish then really... there isn't much point treating for a pathogen only to reintroduce the fish into an environment where it can be reinfected.

You need to think clearly about your treatment objectives. Is it to prophylactically treat the fish for hidden parasites during a quarantine period? Is the fish actually showing symptoms?

Medicating without a cause is actually not really a good thing to do. It would help if you would let us know what you are trying to achieve here.

As for the medications themselves, a thorough understanding of their actions and targets is what every fishkeeper should have. Information on this is readily available as many of these are used in agriculture or in the case of praziquantel, in humans.

The class of parasite you are trying to treat will determine the drug of choice. Praziquantel and levamisole are very good because of their specificity (i.e. targets cestodes/trematodes and nematodes respectively, does not affect any other bacteria e.g. filter bacteria). Both drugs also have a very wide therapeutic range, which just means that the difference between the effective dose and the toxic dose is extremely wide. For example, prazi is used in aquaculture applications at a rate of 2ppm. Most prazi in oz have instructions telling us to dose at 4 ppm. There is a reference out there with an aquarium using it as a bath at 10ppm. This means you have plenty of leeway as far as dosing accuracy goes. Levamisole is the same and you would have to seriously miscalculate the dose rate to have a toxic effect. I have personally used both these drugs at the recommended dose rates on many supposedly sensitive fish, such as baby peppermint catfish, loaches and tiny apistogramma fry.

You can't lump all meds together as toxic. This stems from earlier period meds such as the formalin and organophosphate based meds which are actually indiscriminate in what they kill. Potassium permanganate also comes into this category and they all have one thing in common, they are harmful to the fish even with relatively small overdoses, and they are not very specific in action. Instead of acting on specific organisms, most will affect any organic tissue, the main difference being the sensitivity of the pathogen would be slightly higher than that of the hose in most cases (not always- eg loaches). Loaches and catfish that are scaleless are more sensitive as the scales provide some degree of protection from the harsh chemical.

I feel we can all take a more scientific view on how we medicate our fish. I have a medical background in human terms and there would be no way that you would medicate a human based on just hearsay, would you? Base your fishkeeping decisions on the wealth of valid scientific research that has been done on the field of aquaculture using proper research and study methods rather than the billions of aquarium web pages which basically repeat and recycle what may sometimes be just myth and guesses, which.. if repeated enough.. becomes almost fact :)

The reason I am concerned about this subject in particular is that the misuse of meds in fish will end up causing us major problems in the future. Aquarists are contributing to various resistant strains of pathogens and remember if you are not effectively eradicating the pathogen properly you are contributing to selecting for a more resistant strain. We are already seeing this with ich and flukes.

We can all learn from each other and learn a little bit more skeptically about our fish, their pathogens, and the associated meds and how they work. You've come to the right place with so many experts and hopefully this community as a whole will contribute to better aquarium health management practices for all :)

just my 2 cents ;)

[marg]

Interesting reading mtchye. Basically what I want to do is treat for Flukes and Tapeworms.

[mtchye]

In that case, you can use praziquantel to treat all your tank citizens. Prazi is very effective against most tapeworms and single host external flukes.

Levamisole treats for internal nematode worms like camallanus. These can be present also without many symptoms unless the fish gets stressed or the worm population large. Using prazi and levamisole for your fish will cover most parasites.

Metronidazole can be used for hexamita, but I think most people usually wait for the fish to get sick in this case because metronidazole is an antibiotic that needs to be prescribed and is quite pricey.

If you require dose rates let me know the product you are using, concentration of active ingredient, and treatment water volume and I can work it out for you.

Usually I use prazi first as flukes and tapeworms i regard as more serious compared to nematodes. After that a course of levamisole, followed by observation after end of med period for 2 weeks. If at that time the fish are eating normally with good poops they are good to go outta quarantine. If you've never done this quarantine thing with your fish you may want to do all of them once and then just the new additions in a separate smaller tank which should save you in meds ;)

Cheers
Vincent