SMALL water changes withOUT chlorine removal (direct)

[rytis]

i've been doing 1/week w/c about 1/4 of the tank sometimes 2/week....

now i just got this special hose "no-spil" thing,.... andif i bypass extra bucket and "aqua-safe chlorine removal" liquid it's so much easier....

here's my plan: instead of larger 25% once a week water changes i will do 3-4 times a week of only 10% each time untreated for chlorine... just did id fishes seem ok though for 5 minutes at first they did show some sadness in their fins... (but not clamped, just not erected)

question is: is this ok for a long term health of my discus?

[DiscusMan]

My brother in law does his water changes by hooking a hose up to his kitchen tap and putting it straight into the tank.

He does at various times during the filling process take a syringe full of Prine ( dechlorinator ) and squirts some into the tank.
I would personally not reccoment it but i have seen it done and it works a treat for him so if it works for you then do it. I would still be adding some dechlorinator to the water thou. The chlorine i beleive will irritate the gills and over time it might effect the fish but then again the levels may be so low in a 10% change that it is irrelevant.

In the end do whatever works for you.

Wayne

[DiscusMan]

I will also add that chlorine versus chloromines are different and The breaking down of chloromines causes ammonia in your tank which is why most of us age our water. Prime is an ammonia treater as well just remember that.

Most dechlorinator solutons will not normally break down chloromines but if you double dose the water it will also break to chloromine bond. Best to check witht he maker as to what is recommended on this thou.

It really comes down to were you live and how the water board in your area treat your water to what further treatment you may need to do to your water.

Wayne

[mcloughlin2]

I have done water changes and wen i filled up the tank i did it straight from the garden hose then after or while it is still filling i put some tap water conditioner in ... never on discus though ... :wink:

[endless]

I put two buckets of hot water straight from the tap (which equates to about 40litres) into my ageing drum everytime i change water. I then use a power head to pump water from the ageing drum to the tank. I dont really know if this is good for my discus but they seem happy enough. Everytime i change water i would probably siphon out 120 litre. My tank has a capacity of around 500 litres which means that i put in about 8% tap water into my tank everytime i change water.
Word of warning, i am a noob at fish keeping so i suggest you wait for someone with more experience to give you the green light.

[Andrew Soh]

:D Hi Rytis,

I think your question is 'It is safe to make small water changes 4 to 5 times a week and not to add neutraliser'

To my opinion, if the municipal water is treated with chlorine, it is totally acceptable as the newly-added water is subjected to aeration and aging...thus chlorine could easily have evaporated by the next change.

But if the M. water is treated with Chloramines...then it is a problem in long term as chloramines, as far as is known, cannot get rid off by evaporation nor boiling nor aging. The only way is passing the water through charcoal filter or adding sodium thiosulphate to breakup and neutralising the chlorine...leaving the ammonia in the water..which in most application to my opinion, the quantity is minimal and non-lethal.

So, if you do not treat the chloramines-treated water...through mathematical calculation.....the tank will reach 99% new water chloramine concentration in less than a month.

Some breeders may not agree with me because this is exactly what they are doing and nothing happened. Just to remind.....different country, different time and for different purposes, concentration of chloramines concentration differs (fully controlled by the water department). In normal day, the dose is quite safe for fishes (at least that is with my area).

But one faithful day.....due to arrogance and over-confident :cry: ...a punishment befall you........you may need to buy new discus to restock your whole hatchery... :wink:

Take care,
Andrew :angel

[Squid]

Guys - you can do this if you want but in the end, the gill lamellae will be damaged. I sometimes do this to my fish but have come a cropper as well on numerous occasions so no more. Seriously - I used to be a fish disease dude from the Uni of Tas Aquaculture department and I can tell you that gill damage is being done - a bit like smoking in humans. OK if you done want the fish to live for 10 yrs or so. Remember this - Chloramine is a more toxic chemical that cyanides to organic life forms

[Proteus]

Just an FYI if this is to be done in the Sydney catchment area (for water).

Not only is there Chlorine in the water, but as mentioned previously there is Chloromine, which is nasty stuff (for fish and bacterial colonies in filters).

Plus you have to add to that the metals they are using to dissipate the algael spores, such as Copper, Cadnium and other trace elements (including very small amounts of arsenic at times).

My only advice is not only to age your water if possible, but double dose with neatralising agents.

Maybe I am being slightly anal in my precautions, but given what I hear and see every day, I wouldnt risk it, especially not on my favourite fish.

[rytis]

Guys - you can do this if you want but in the end, the gill lamellae will be damaged. I sometimes do this to my fish but have come a cropper as well on numerous occasions so no more. Seriously - I used to be a fish disease dude from the Uni of Tas Aquaculture department and I can tell you that gill damage is being done - a bit like smoking in humans. OK if you done want the fish to live for 10 yrs or so. Remember this - Chloramine is a more toxic chemical that cyanides to organic life forms

ok so the final answer is NO. thx for all the input everyone, i will listen to squid..

second question:
is it ok to only treat water for ~20 minutes without aging: fill up 50galon bin after adding dechloronizer while pumping water out of the tank and then just pumping it out of that bin without waiting for a day?
been doing it, seems just fine, but after reading squid story, need to ask?

[Proteus]

is it ok to only treat water for ~20 minutes without aging: fill up 50galon bin after adding dechloronizer while pumping water out of the tank and then just pumping it out of that bin without waiting for a day?
been doing it, seems just fine, but after reading squid story, need to ask?


so long as you allow the neatralising agent time to bind and chelate the chemicals in question, there is no problem doing it that way (30-60mins usually is enough time)

[Andrew Soh]

To all the above :wink: ,


:thumb :thumb :thumb


:angel
Andrew

[DiscusMan]

Mate as i said in my first reply there is many products you can buy that remove chloramines from the water as soon as its added to it.

As i dont want to break any rules posting links a quick search on google for

water treatment chloramines aquarium - in australia

this will give you a list of many products that you can buy and put in your water that will work as soon as they touch the water. Note that these chemicals are normally more expensive as they are stronger than normal chlorine remover.

As long as there no chlorine and the temp drop isnt to large then you shouldnt have a problem using water straight from the tap.

My only advice would be that whatever you choose to do make sure that the process is simple to do and repeatable so that 1. you don tget sick of doing it and 2. your fish get used to what you do.

Wayne

[Proteus]

As i dont want to break any rules posting links a quick search on google for

FYI, there is no problem in mentioning brand names or products, however non-sponsor stores cant be promoted.

Products such as Aqutan by Sera, AquaPlus by Hagen, Prime by Seachem & AquaStar by BM are good starting points

[dreamer]

i have been doing this for almost 2yrs with no ill effect. not only 10% i change 50% 2-3x a week then add aquastar with normal dosage.

i know everyone said MUST age water for min 24hrs ... but i dont see a need to do that for me at least. im not saying its 100% safe to do so, but its do-able.

i keep fish to enjoy ....not to worry :)

[rytis]

i have been doing this for almost 2yrs with no ill effect. not only 10% i change 50% 2-3x a week then add aquastar with normal dosage.

i know everyone said MUST age water for min 24hrs ... but i dont see a need to do that for me at least. im not saying its 100% safe to do so, but its do-able.

i keep fish to enjoy ....not to worry :)
do you live in the city like me or do you use well water or live in a suburb?

[Benny]

as his location says, Sydney CBD...

He gets our crappy water from warragamba dam

[Proteus]

i know everyone said MUST age water for min 24hrs

I believe previous comments have said it is a good option to age your water - if you can.

Once again, this is purely precautionary, as well as a way to minimise stress to the fish given that water straight from the tap has the chemistry of 7.6-7.8pH & less than 18-19c temp.


My only advice is not only to age your water if possible, but double dose with neatralising agents.


As long as there no chlorine and the temp drop isnt to large then you shouldnt have a problem using water straight from the tap.

[rytis]

which water change is better?

50 galons 1/4 of new water once a week

A: all in one time/ gravel once and replace 1/4 water
or
B: divided over 2-3 times a week~15%. vaccum gravel 2-3 times a week and fill back up with 1/3 of that each time.... (same total amount of new water..)

[Proteus]

A: all in one time/ gravel once and replace 1/4 water

IMO this would be the better option unless you want to grow out some small fish.

[endless]

Rytis if you choose to do option B, why would you stop at 15%. Since you have already started the water change process and taken all your necessary water change equipment out, why would you stop at 15%. In terms of energy and time i dont think it would take that much more to do a 30-40% water change as compared to a 15% water change. Afterall, discus do love water changes

[rytis]

very good point, yes it will be 25% 2 times a week.... maybe a little more 1 time...

[nicholas76]

25% ?

may as well do nothing in a heavily planted tank like yours you would end up with the same result anyway.

id be doing 50% atleast twice a week.

[rytis]

r u trying to tell me in a planted aquarium water gets dirty faster or just trying to encourage me to do more water changes by making it up?

:)

[Proteus]

hint: Takashi Amano usually does 50%+ water changes on his planted only tanks each week.

[rytis]

so youre saying 50% once a week is better then 25% 2xweek?
how much better? because if i do twice, i gravel filter twice which removes waste more often....

[G-1000]

Rytis,

I have often thought about using just straight tap water (e.g when you run out of ager). However, whilst the chlorine will eventually leak out into the air, you have to consider that heavy metals have not been treated and over the long term - this will harm any aquatic life (especially discus).

G