peppering

[otto]

sorry for the stupid question, but is the peppering on PBs seen as an undesirable breeding trait?

[Andrew Soh]

If holding everything else constant, the less 'peppering' or black pigment, the better chance for it to be a winner.

Many Judges in the world prefer a discus to have as little black as possible...unless all the discus in the competition have black.

Since the chances for it to be a winner is slim....why reproduce the same? But again, there is a reason to use it as a brooder....that is when you want to retent a certain phenotypic expression of that discus (not the black) and you are going to use it to cross out...with the intention to remove the black or 'wash away the black'. This is explained in my book.....not possible here as there are many pages and drawings.

Take care,
Andrew :angel

[otto]

thanks andrew, can peppering be controlled by water parameters, food etc.

[mcloughlin2]

Peppering cannot be control by water parameters from wat ive heard....

It is best ot get a fish with as little peppering as possible and selectivly breed a fish that has no peppering at all :D ...

If ur fish has only a tiny bit of peppering then i wouldnt worry unless u are aiming to breed show quality fish....

Breeding Show quality fish is a whole new ball game compared to breeding just good quality discus... :wink:

[otto]

the reason i ask is that approx. 6 months ago i bought a pair of PBs that looked like this...

[otto]

and now they look like this...(my avtar)

[mcloughlin2]

There is another thread about peppering that is called "Ugly Fish" in there Discusman says that different ph levels affect the colour of his fish...

Also as discus grow they develop the peppering i think..

Im not a %100 sure but if u purchased ur fish wen they were younger they would gradually get more peppering as they grow...

Another possibility is they were feed colour enhancing food b4 u bought them...

Can someone back this up and tell me if im right plz :D ..

[otto]

my PH sits at 6.5 and temp. 28.5 (for the plants) the tank they came from was PH 6.4 & temp. 30. they were fed beefheart mix & tetra colour bits and still are. the time frame between photos was 4 months approx. i know the water from place of purchase is 100% RO with salt added to obtain the required ppm of 60, i use tap water & prime and thought maybe the reduction of water quality maybe the culprit. it may be age/maturity.

[lesley]

In my experience, some of the pidgeon bloods are prone to peppering. If you have a planted tank like I do, then I make sure that any I buy, do not have any peppering at all. That way I avoid ending up with a lot of peppering. I think they do adjust to the darker areas in a planted tank, I have lots of driftwood. Most of my pidgeon bloods have a light amount of peppering, I would rather have the planted tank and slight peppering that a BB.

[DiscusMan]

Sorry for bringing up these old ones but dont get to read the forum to much these days.

I would say that peppering is a personal characteristic to the beholder.

Peppering can be effected by the enviroment of your fish for sure.

I have heard that its something to do with having the right coloured background on your tank and the relative location of the tank to the ground i think lower is better and that you shouldnt allow the fish to become in contact with direct sunlight.

I havent worried to much about peppering myself but when i breed i certainly keep the non peppered babies for myself and sell the pepper ones for the reason of trying to clean up my future batches by using the less peppered ones. Out of 300 babies i only got 6 fully clean golden babies so the odds from this pair i have isnt very high.

Wayne

[DiscusMan]

Just looking at the photos. The peppering has certainly come out on both of your fish.

would be interesting to find out the enviroment they come from and went to.

The ADA recently had a show at penrith and the PH of the water was 7. My tanks at hoem are 6.0. The fish from my 6.0 tank when transported and placed in the ph 7.0 water seemed to be much brighter and the darkness of the fish not the peppering levels was less. Some of my ghosts have like black patches in the flesh and when these fish change the PH of the water the black spots in the flesh go away and the fish becomes a lot cleaner to look at.

I figure that the same way fish with stress bars can show or hide the bars no barred fish can also do this colour changing thing and they alter the colours the same was as teh enviroment around htem changes.

I do find all this side of it very interesting :D

Wayne

[kevkoi]

Just think of peppering in discus like freckling in people. Freckling can be caused/hastened by environmental condition (too much sun) as well as genetics.

In some cases, we cannot control the genetics, so we have to control the environmental conditions. I never encourage the keeping of Pigeon blood based fish in planted tanks as I personally feel that the conditions for lush plant growth is contrary to keeping a clean pigeon blood discus.

In our experience, pigeon blood based fish tend to pepper with dark backgrounds/surrounding as well as heavy lighting levels even if you get the pH correct. All the discus breeders keep their pigeon blood based fish in bare tanks with a very light blue/white background painted on the back and sides of the tank. Lighting is room lighting and even then, not on very often, so it's just basically dim diffused natural lighting.

This is not the way we like to see our discus in our home tanks, hence after all the feedback breeders have been getting, the outcrossing with PB fish have been limited and PB lines are being cleaned up with goldens (mutation from Brown discus), virgin reds/san merah type discus (origins frm the ghost lines) and various other discus strains that do not pepper.

Andrew talks a section on "Creating a clean Marlboro" discus and u can see the complexity of achieving this clean red fish without the black pigmentation carried on in the marlboro (pigeon based) fish.

kev

[endless]

dang, my tank is the complete opposite to the ideal conditions for minimising peppering :? . I have a dark grey foam background, one massive driftwood, midnight black gravel and metal halide lights all in a planted aquarium. If only i knew this early before i set up my aquarium

[DiscusMan]

Kev,

mate thanks for the input on this. I wasnt sure which of the tank setups made the peppering show more so a big thanks for putting it in black and white.

Damn these fish can be a fussy bunch hey.

Wayne

[oscar]

endless,

I'm the same...dark gravel, driftwood, plants, fair bit of lighting. Oh well, everything is a trade-off.

Lesley, that fish in the top RHS of the picture is awsome.

[otto]

thanks for the feedback, there are certainly alot of variables associated with
peppering. in keeping a planted tank im trying to duplicate the natural biotype as much as possible(with the exception of a few foreign plant & fish species for variety/aesthetics), could it be some instinctive camouflage to avoid predators from above?

[DiscusMan]

I dont think that any wild discus have peppering but i may be wrong.

Wild discus do have stress bars that run vertically as we all know and when in danger,sickness or stress as it may be. the fish show these bars that just so happen to act as comouflage in the river systems they are in as they are in mangroves and weedy enviroment.

I do beleive that the peppering works on the same thing that the enhancement of the stress bars uses if you get what i mean.

Wayne

[nicholas76]

These fish were clean as adults right?? The "after shot" is a shock to me such a major contrast. I would definitly be examining environmental factors in this case.


ph at 7.0 / bare bottom tank / and a good food and light source to try and rectify it.


from fry to adults ive seen pepper development but never that kind of contrast as an adult. Unless the fish is stressed or not happy or simply getting very old.

[lesley]

Hi Oscar,

one of my favourites for sure, don't know what sort it is.

Nicholas, hi, I have had "clean" fish pepper once they leave a BB tank, I don't think you can go back, none of mine did.

For me, I like the planted tank more than having perfectly "clean" fish.

Lesley

[nicholas76]

thats a good point lesley!

peppering will occurr if you move fish into a planted environment , perhaps this is what we have in this case.

[Merrilyn]

Just thought I'd add my two cents worth here.

I have no objection at all to fish with peppering. To me a happy healthy fish with a good body shape is much more important than a bit of variation in the amount of peppering.

I find all discus attractive, no matter what the strain, and knowing that the pigeon blood is responsible for most of these gorgeous colour strains we have today, is enough for me to over look a few black spots :P

JMHO.

[otto]

i agree Ladyred, in this case i believe the peppering has only enhanced the fish`s appeal.
the pair are constantly spawning and eat very well, to me they seem very happy & healthy. after reading all the feedback im sure it was the transfer from BB to planted that caused the peppering, i was just amazed by the speed & extent of the transformation.