sore eye

[jim from sydney]

adult discus seems to have developed "a sore eye"...one eye has swoolen that is it's diametre is the same but has developed a bulge if one looks at the front of the discus.....it is also slightly lighter in colour than its counterpart....it seems to be happy otherwise.....will watch it for a day or so to see if any change develops.....at first i thought it maybe winking to attract attention :shock: .....any ideas guys????? thanks...Jim.

[Merrilyn]

Could be the beginning of pop eye Jim, which is caused by a bacterial infection behind the eye. Just watch and if it becomes any worse, or if the second eye becomes affected, you will need to start antibiotic treatment.

[jim from sydney]

Merrilyn....no changes only a bit slow and hangs around..did not eat to-day.....if needed is metro ok, and what amount please.......??

PS started using melafix as i had some and found this on the web
API Melafix 120ml

API Melafix is antibacterial remedy for Fresh and Saltwater Aquarium Fish
Rapidly repairs damaged fins, ulcers and open wounds
Melafix promotes regrowth of damaged tissues and fins
API Melafix cures cloudy eye, pop eye, body slime and mouth fungus


Thanks...Jim

[Merrilyn]

I'm not a big fan of melafix with discus. I do believe it is a very good product, but I've just never had much luck with it on discus. I'll be interested to hear how it goes on the eye problem.

If you don't see any results after a week, do a big waterchange to remove as much of the melafix as possible, and begin treating with Metro at the rate of 250mg per 40 litres of water twice daily, with 30% waterchanges between treatments. I'd continue treatment for 5 days.

[jim from sydney]

Merrilyn.....i tend to agree with you about melafix...i have had him (or her) in the hospital now for almost 3 days and there is no change.....eating well however which is a good sign.....i will continue until the week is up and see then..thanks for your advice...will keep you posted...Jim.

[jim from sydney]

Merrilyn....no improvement after 5 days on Melafix.....will switch to Metro to-nite for 7 days and see......Jim

[Merrilyn]

Yes Jim. See if you can soak some food in Metro and feed that. It's always more effective if you can get it into the gut.

[jim from sydney]

thanks Merrilyn.....will do....Jim

[marg]

Sorry to read that you are having problems Jim. I hope that things start to improve, I will be thinking of you.

[jim from sydney]

thanks Margot......it is one of my greatest discus...i hope the Metro works....i was able to mix it with some fish dinner this morning and the fish ate it all..thank heavens because the Metro by itself tastes so sour...as all anti-biotics do......Jim

[jim from sydney]

Update....after 4 days of Metro medication there is no sign at all of any small amount of improvement. I feel there should have been a little change by now as the effect of the Metro would have begun. The eye looks angry with a solid grey ring around its junction with the main body. The centre of the eye has a mix of colours, however mainly black and grey. Our friend eats well. In the morning the Metro is mixed with the food at night it is placed in with the water...Water change is twice a day , when home than 3 times per day, each time 50% water change.
Is there anything else i can do?????
...will update in a few days time....Jim

[marg]

Can you post a picture of your fellow Jim?. Maybe if one of the more learned people on our Forum sights it they may have some idea what is wrong with him.

[jim from sydney]

Margot.....will do wednesday nite when home........thanks....Jim

[mcloughlin2]

Im guessing it is pop eye..it is caused by bad water quality so try a water change maybe...

-Mcloughlin2

[marg]

Mcloughlin2 it sounds like Jim is doing plenty of water changes. Still thinking of you Jim - I keep checking this post each time that i log on hoping that there is some improvement for you. I know how you feel - every time one of mine looks a little bit off I worry.

[mcloughlin2]

Yeah sorry i didnt read the whole thing....i was feeling a bit sick an was in a hurry....i still think pop eye though...it iz weird how it hasent gone or started to show some improvement though...that pic would be a great help though if u could get one jim

-Mcloughlin2

[jim from sydney]

thanks for all your concerns every-one...here are some pictures....one eye is normal as you can see...the other well is getting bigger even now after 7 days on Metro.....plenty of W/C all the time....parameters excellent.......so what next??????? please help :( :( ....Jim

[jim from sydney]

one more to look at....Jim

[mcloughlin2]

Ouch!! That looks pretty bad...i did some researching and came up with some bad news....there is a strain of pop eye that is caused by parasites that cannot be cured...i really hope that this is not the case for u as it is really a nice discus....i dont know wat u could do for the discus now just keep up the treatments it is currently recieving an hope that i am wrong...

-Mcloughlin2

[jim from sydney]

Mc.....i hope that you are wrong too....i have also read a lot on the web and most seem to think that is is incureable and the fish should be disposed of. As it is one of my best fish i dont like giving up at this stage but i am slowly preparing for the worst.....it is not in discomfort at present and eats well....the eye seems to change daily in colour and size, indicating to me that something is happening.......for better or for worse.....i will go with it for one more week and see, after that ?????? :roll: ...thanks for the reply and keep your fingers crossed please........Jim.

[marg]

Jim I feel so sad for you. It certainly looks horrid.

Just a thought - in the Illness and Medications section there is a sticky titled "Fish Friendly Vets" - perhaps if you were to telephone one near you they may be prepared to look at it via a photo posted on the net to them.

I know it is a terrible feeling when you are watching one of your fish sick but I guess while he is still eating there might be hope. Have a look at that site and see what you can find out there.

[Mattzilla]

OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

that looks so bad...that poor fish

i hope you can find some way to fix it
good luck

[jim from sydney]

Jim I feel so sad for you. It certainly looks horrid.

Just a thought - in the Illness and Medications section there is a sticky titled "Fish Friendly Vets" - perhaps if you were to telephone one near you they may be prepared to look at it via a photo posted on the net to them.

I know it is a terrible feeling when you are watching one of your fish sick but I guess while he is still eating there might be hope. Have a look at that site and see what you can find out there.

Margot...thanks for that, but i already have done that....believe me i was very disappointed i rang 8 vets and all except one are not interested in excotic fish problems, and past me from pillar to post. the one who was interested wanted me to take the fish there (a bloody long way from me) and was not interested in the photos i have, and still couldnt guarantee results. i will kill the fish with stress at this stage if i took it there, i am sure. They all thought however if anything could cure it ,it is metro......so i will try some more until i cant handle the disappointment any longer and than i will need to be decisive.....Jim

PS i am getting mentally exhausted with the problem

[Merrilyn]

Jim, that's definately not a case of normal pop eye.

Keep up with the antibiotic treatment for another week. The fish could well lose the eye, but I have seen fish survive quite well with only one eye.

Good luck. Wish I could offer more suggestions.

[marg]

Jim did this happen gradually over a short period of time or did it virtually happen overnight? I was wondering if maybe your fellow doesn't have a type of tumour or cyst either in or behind the eye, as it doesn't look like Popeye to me going by the pictures I have seen in all my books etc. That is just a thought.

Having never had this experience with my fish nor ever seen it "in the flesh" so to speak I don't actually know what "Popeye" looks like, but the books do say that with Popeye (Exophthalmus) the eye sticks out of its' socket and appears inflamed (and that looks to be the case in the photo's) however in the books the "Popping" looks to be in the eye socket, not the actual eye itself. Your Photo's look like it is the actual eye that is affected. My books say it is usually caused by environmental problems (less often by parasites in which case it is deemed incurable), and recommend adjusting the water quality, and that it may take some time for the fish to recover.

You have been changing the water regularly, so I agree with Merrilyn, I would keep up the antibiotics to guard against infection in case he loses his eye, I also think he will survive quite well with only one eye. You will still be able to breed with him.

Just another thought Jim - what about contacting Andrew Soh - he has put in a bit of information regarding vlevet diesase into ADF - maybe he would know something about your problem - you could PM him?

[jim from sydney]

Margot.....am at work so little time to talk.....thanks a lot you are very thoughtfull and i appreciate that a lot....will respond tomorrow..am feeling sad as i cant do much for my friend.....JIm

[poppy]

:shock:
yowwwwwwwwww Sorry Jim that poor lil fish, his eye is not looking good..........

big hug big hug big hug....... I hope he mends soon,

fingers crossed

Poppy XXXX

[jim from sydney]

Jim did this happen gradually over a short period of time or did it virtually happen overnight?

Hi Margot....i only noticed a slight difference one morning after a routine look at the fish, i took it out and hospitalised it.....

I was wondering if maybe your fellow doesn't have a type of tumour or cyst either in or behind the eye, as it doesn't look like Popeye to me going by the pictures I have seen in all my books etc. That is just a thought.

i think you are right it appears a tumor or something like it, have taken one more photo for you to see it appears still to be growing...

Having never had this experience with my fish nor ever seen it "in the flesh" so to speak I don't actually know what "Popeye" looks like, but the books do say that with Popeye (Exophthalmus) the eye sticks out of its' socket and appears inflamed (and that looks to be the case in the photo's) however in the books the "Popping" looks to be in the eye socket, not the actual eye itself. Your Photo's look like it is the actual eye that is affected. My books say it is usually caused by environmental problems (less often by parasites in which case it is deemed incurable), and recommend adjusting the water quality, and that it may take some time for the fish to recover.

i have read a lot too, like you and it doesn't seem like pop-eye to me

You have been changing the water regularly, so I agree with Merrilyn, I would keep up the antibiotics to guard against infection in case he loses his eye, I also think he will survive quite well with only one eye. You will still be able to breed with him.

i have done so many water changes i lost count, and am sure he will loose the eye....to-day i noticed thet he has gone blind in that eye as he does not react to movement around him on that side...like food entering into the water, which proves that the eye-sight is gone

Just another thought Jim - what about contacting Andrew Soh - he has put in a bit of information regarding vlevet diesase into ADF - maybe he would know something about your problem - you could PM him?

i dont know what to expect next, i guess the eye may physically fall from the body if so...what then?? i guess wait and see.......
Attached the latest pics....Friday 5 July.....

to nite i have set-up a new 3ft tank in readyness for 2 new discus which i want to buy at the Pet Show in Penrith next weekend 13/14th. Some of us from the ADA are represented there with some 40 tanks with discus which will be for sale on sunday 14th I need to do this to overcome the present scenario to keep my spirits up. And as they are from our ADA breeders i am sure the stock will be good. So the quarantine tank is setup in readyness for them to go in.

Sorry i was a bit short with my reply yesterday but i just caught your reply as i was between classes and had no time to answer properly.


Keep well......Jim

[Merrilyn]

It certainly seems to be getting worse Jim. Looks like he may lose that eye pretty soon. I hope some of the guys from the ADA have some ideas.

[marg]

Ouch, it does look worse, doesn't it. I guess all you can do is keep the antibiotics up to him, I'd say it is going to burst for sure by the looks of it. Were you able to get on to Andrew Soh?.

[mistakes r crucial]

Jim,

Fish friendly vets were mentioned a while back in this thread. Give Karen Mogg a call on the Sunshine Coast and see if you can get those photos to her, she is absolutely brilliant with fish, she looks after Underwaterworld etc. Her number is 07 5493 8222. If you cant get the photos to her via email give me a hoy and Ill take them down for you.
MAC

[marg]

MAC : I have telephoned Jim and told him to read your Post - he said he will ring you shortly.

Jim : After talking to you on phone I thought of one other thing - I would send her photo's from when you first noticed the eye and also the date when it all began, that may assist her with her diagnosis.

[jim from sydney]

MAC and Margot.....thanks both of you for offering to help....Margot..you are an angel for sure, fancy ringing me on your friends mobile and try to help me , when i know that you dont have money to burn, what can i say ?????
I have rang Karen Mogg's office just then and got an answering machine telling me they close at 11 am on saturdays and re-open at 8.30 on Monday. I will ring her on Monday afternoon that is the earliest i can ring as i have classes the whole morning. If i can at least send her the photos that would help.
MAC have you had dealings with Karen regarding fish????
Yes i have PM Andrew last night but so far no answer yet.
I agree with Ladyred is looks worse and am waiting for the eye to selfdestruct in the next few days.
I am watching my friend closely for any signs of distress however he seems to be happy. swims in circles sometimes in a vertical plane, i.e. on his side but that maybe the times that he is adjusted to having to look thru one eye,.....i hope....
thanks again all will keep you informed....have a good weekend....Jim

[Merrilyn]

Our thoughts are with you Jim. Hope you get some good news on Monday.

What a wonderful group of peope we have on this forum. Thanks everyone. I'm sure Jim appreciates all the support.

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi Jim,

Yes, I have had plenty of dealings with Karen Mogg and I have found her to be excellent. I wish I knew 1% of the knowledge she has about fish.
MAC

[jim from sydney]

Hi All....Thanks every one for your help thus far......just an update....sundaynight.....not much has changed, strange thing is the bad eye moves freely in the eye's socket, just like a good eye is doing. Our friend is eating very well, always hungry. Gets plenty of good food, like frozen b/w, home made fish dinner (even i wouldn't mind having), beefheart and a snack now and again of colour bits.........
Yes Merrilyn, it goes without saying, we have a great mob of members, it is a great feeling that each time when i switch-onto the forum, new messages of support are there waiting.....
will keep you all up todate.... :) :) .....Jim

ps just heard from Andrew.
have attached part (i have edited) of his recommendations below...i am sure Andrew doesnt mind if i post this as other members could also benefit in the future.


Stop metro treatment.
The reason for this could be one of the two reasons.

1) Topical infection. A parasite got into that eye and caused havoc. In this case, the culprit is bacteria and the eye is expected to have irreversible damage.....the inflamation can subside but the damage to the len is generally permanent.

2) Injury....but this is less likely as to have a direct hit is quite impossible...not so accurate.

Try this to save your discus:

1) Transfer into a clinical tank (empty without plants or substrate).
2) Add normal salt...300gm to 100 litre of water....long bath
3) Add Erythromycin....2 gm to 100 litre water. Dissolve before pouring in. Maintain for 12 days and if water change is needed...add back to strength and add back salt also.
4) Reduce or maintain pH at 5.5. Do it slowly ove a period of 2 to 3 days and maintainas that.
5) Keep temperature at 28c to 29c.

[Andrew Soh]

Hi Jim,

It is o.k. to post the PM here. In fact, after reading yourPM and the thread, I don't know which to post....finally you did it for me.....he!he!

Hope the suggestion will help :?

'Just call and the Ghost buster is here' :thumb

Keep up dated, ya?

Take care,
Andrew :angel

[marg]

How is he going Jim? Any better?

[jim from sydney]

How is he going Jim? Any better?

Hi Margot...eye is getting bigger....slowly.....rang Karen's office she was operating and will talk to me at 5 pm today.....have sent her the pics i took...will update to-nite.......(how many wings do angels have??)...Jim

[Merrilyn]

Thoughts are with you Jim.

[mcloughlin2]

I hope everything turns out ok :)

[jim from sydney]

Hi All.....an update....Monday....I spoke at length with Karen late this afternoon and am afraid that we have bad luck indeed.....I will try to be as brief as possible.....I had send the pics to Karen before i spoke to her so that she could have a good look first.....
Her analysis was that there is a 30% chance of an infection and a 70% chance of a tumor growth behind the eye lens. Details of her analysis i will leave out. In both cases an anti-biotic given thru' the water or food is very in-effective and hence normally does not work. Karen advised that Metro or similar is best for external problems, for internal problems of this scale injections behing the eye needs to be given, a difficult problem for obvious reasons. Karen has given me names of medication for these in case i want to try, however she felt as it is most likely a tumor growing there is nothing i can do.
There is no answer for killing the tumor growth...She felt that the eye would continue to grow bigger (and indeed it seems to grow by about
1 mm each day) untill the tumor pushes the eye out. Also that will be the time that the tumor would start to push inward towards the brain, destroying it in turn. This is the time that the fish looses its appetite and will start swimming strangely.

So option one is, that anti-biots should be stopped and let mother nature takes its course and wait for the inevitable to happen. This worries me as the fish will go through a lot of pain and discomfort.
The second choice is to consider euthanasia before things get much worse. Methods and means i talked to her about. I had the feeling that Karen tends to agree with me that the latter is possible the correct option although she didn't say this directly.

It was great to talk with her and her professional opinions makes me feel more at ease.

I haven't decided as yet which way to go.
Option two saddens me at this point in time, but option one is cruel later.

I will think about it for a few days.

Keep well every-one....and thanks again to all our members....if only our fish could talk they could thank you all personally.......Jim.

[Benny]

So sorry to hear the bad news :(


Deeply saddened, i lost a fish to a tumor too, its horrible to watch a fish you prize suffer :(

Regards..

[jim from sydney]

So sorry to hear the bad news :(


Deeply saddened, i lost a fish to a tumor too, its horrible to watch a fish you prize suffer :(

Regards..

Thanks Benny.....I appreciate your quick response ..i think i will not be able to cope with seeing that kind of suffering unnecessarily........JIm

[marg]

Hi Jim. I feel so sorry for you and your Fish. As I mentioned to you earlier I had a feeling it might have been a tumour - I have seen a lot of tumours in dogs and cats but not with Fish (as I have never had Fish before I got the Discus), the vet that I used work for didn't have much to do with either Fish or Birds. Most tumours increase rapidly in size and his eye looks worse every day doesn't it.

I think that as hard as it is, Option 2 is the better choice - at least he won't suffer uneccessarily- even having the eye increase in size like that would be causing discomfort.

My thoughts are with you, and I am sure I can speak for everyone from the Forum who has been following this sad happening.

[jim from sydney]

Margot.......thanks i tend to agree with you........Jim

[Merrilyn]

So sorry to hear the sad news Jim.

We're all thinking of you mate.

[jim from sydney]

Thanks Merrilyn......keep well..Jim

[Andrew Soh]

Hello Jim,

Karen may be right.....as least you are getting professional help. But for the meantime, don't you think something has to be done rather than leaving it to mother nature?

In an aquarium...even if you leave it to nature, nature is not the only factor that ditates survive.....many factors..mostly environmental may have an effect.

I suggest what I recommended till you decide an action.

JUst my suggestion.

Andrew :angel

[jim from sydney]

Andrew...thanks i am continueing with meds for a while as suggested.......thanks for your great advice.....keep fit....Jim

[poppy]

Hi Jim........

yes it certainly is a dilemma......... I always feel when the fish are suffering and they are deteriorating and I cant watch anymore its time to euthanase.

You said Pop Eye is eating and seems chirpy enough, well if hes happy and eating, I'd say give him a chance to live a bit longer and maybe recover, ,

assess as time goes on........... as I am sure you are , main thing is do the best for the fish

decisions are difficult

cheers

Poppy

[jim from sydney]

Hi Poppy.......thanks for your reply......am watching :roll: him closely dont worry.........Jim

[mistakes r crucial]

Best of luck with it Jim, always a very difficult decision.
MAC

[jim from sydney]

Thanks Mac.....i agree......keep fit....Jim

[Andrew Soh]

Hi Jim,
Keep us posted of the progress...ya?

Take care mate,
Andrew :angel

[marg]

Hi Jim

Just checking in to see how Pop Eye is going - has there been any improvement?

Thinking of you both

[jim from sydney]

Margot....Andrew.....thanks for caring......still on suggested meds.....eye still increasing in size although i feel at a slower rate......fish eats a lot and appears happy, so will continue for a while longer untill a change is visible......have attached the latest pic from this afternoon.....my God can the eye get any bigger??????? regards Jim.

[mistakes r crucial]

Jim,

I'm not making light of this but that pic is enough to make ur asss twinge.
MAC

[Merrilyn]

Jim, that looks awful. Did Karen suggest piercing the sac to release some of the pressure?

I don't see how that eye can grow any more.

[jim from sydney]

Hi Mac.....you are right........funny thing if you look at the eye's edges it is a true work of art, i could not draw it so perfectly rounded, not that i want to try, but even in misery mother nature shapes things well.......Jim

[jim from sydney]

Jim, that looks awful. Did Karen suggest piercing the sac to release some of the pressure?

I don't see how that eye can grow any more.

Hi Merrilyn.....No she didnt and i think she didnt because she was pretty sure it is a growth and that would only work if there was an infection but as it is a growth (we think) piercing would not help anyway. Besides i am "chicken" and wouldn't want to try, in case .........Jim

[marg]

Hi Jim, just checking in again.

Unbeleivable to see that it is still growing in size - and what seems more unbeleivable is that he is still eating and moving around as normal. I guess while he is like that there is hope - if it was bothering him greatly I would imagine that he would find a corner hanker down and go off his food.

Has Karen given you any idea what to expect should the eye happen to "burst", or did she say that the eye would most likely "pop" from the socket?.

Poor little feller - he looks really normal otherwise, doesn't he.

[jim from sydney]

Margot....Karen felt that the eye would grow until it pops out. If at that stage the tumor has grown in both directions it will effect the brain.
I am hoping it is growing in one direction only, as it must be doing now otherwise the brain would already be effected resulting in obvious pain.
My great hope is that the tumor may eventually pop out with the eye, but as i am a novice this maybe high hopes. It is still growing and as big as the thickness of the fish.....some 15 mm i think....
This morning it did not want to eat and i noticed some dark marking developing around its gills....but then it has been eating a lot lately so maybe was just not hungry.......
alternatively it could be the beginning of failure...JIm.

[mcloughlin2]

OMG that looks bad....

It looks bigger then a marble now...


This morning it did not want to eat and i noticed some dark marking developing around its gills....but then it has been eating a lot lately so maybe was just not hungry.......


I hope the fish was just having a bad day an wasnt feeling hungry

[Merrilyn]

Just know that we're all still with you Jim.

[jim from sydney]

Just know that we're all still with you Jim.

Merrilyn...i know i can feel it......attached the latest friday nite 8pm...still increasing i think......eating again and still winking?????
I am thinking maybe i should delete some of the earlier pics, now out of date a bit, what do you think???? JIm

[Merrilyn]

Jim, I'd like you to leave the earlier pictures in place. This is so unusual, it's good to have it documented in pictures.

If you don't mind Jim, I think it's of interest to everyone.

[jim from sydney]

Merrilyn....ofcourse you are spot on....i should leave them and i shall...i owe it to all......Jim

[mcloughlin2]

Any update yet jim..??? Is there any sign of improvement???

[jim from sydney]

Any update yet jim..??? Is there any sign of improvement???

No Buddy... no improvements....have taken him off all the medications now, as it makes no difference at all and i dont want him to become accumstomed to anti-biots as he may need it some time later....the eye is "slowly" getting bigger but the rate of change is so marginal that it is almost impossible to detect. Eats very well and appears to be happy...so we will keep going and keep watching...Thanks for caring....Jim.

[mcloughlin2]

That is sad to hear...

[jim from sydney]

That is sad to hear...

i am determined to save him......Jim

[mistakes r crucial]

I take my hat off to you Jim! I sincerely hope you win this one, you deserve it.
MAC

[poppy]

Jim........... my thoughts are with you and i hope he improves.......... the poor little mite............

keep up the good work............ hes got a good dad,

cheers

poppy

[jim from sydney]

Poppy and Mac.....thanks guys...

Update...monday nite.....today the eye became bigger again a lot faster than other days, indicating a tumor to me.
from my experience with tumors they grow in stages , resting some days and then all of the sudden grow again.
this time the growth is greater at the back of the eye, pushing the eye forward (like rotating) fowards the front. so it looks to be coming from the main body at about 15 degrees, a bit scary when i look from the top down.
Also at this location the eye is very red and angry once more, indicating a lot of activity.
our friend seems to get used to all this extra love and am starting to think he likes it. hmmmmmmm.
no meds at the moment, but am going to get an extra UV Steriliser and will use this in the hosp. tank he is in. Not sure if this will make any difference but worth a try as nothing else seems to work.

still eating like a horse.

I find it very hard to imagine that it can still grow bigger as the eye looks top-heavy right now.

my camera is with a friend for a few days so will update the pics in a few days

in the meantime.........we will wait and care a bit more.....
love doesn't hurt any-one...does it??????.......Jim

[Merrilyn]

Stay positive Jim.

We're all thinking of you mate.

[jim from sydney]

Merrilyn..thanks...If my buddy can handle this...i should also be able too..

we are doing this together

Jim

[marg]

Hi Jim. I haven't been on line since Friday so it was good to come on line and find that your mate is still with you though sad to hear that the eye is getting bigger still - incredible, as it looked huge as it was. Poor little mite, it must be getting uncomfortable for him.

I agree with what you are saying about tumours - they do seem to have growth spurts, and can increase rapidly in size in only a short matter of time.

Have you kept Karen Mogg up to date with Photographs etc.?.

Even though I haven't been on line I have thinking of you and your little mate - one thing is for sure - he couldn't have a more caring Owner.

Best Wishes mate.

[jim from sydney]

Hi Margot....thanks for the comments....have not spoken with Karen again, there wasn't much else she could do. when my collection of pics get more advanced i will contact her to see if she can make use of them then....will wait until then to see what happens next....this morning the eye seemed extremely angry ....keep well...Jim.
ps any new babs in your tank?????

[marg]

O.K., we will just have to wait and see what happens. Sounds like maybe the eye will eventually pop, doesn't it? (poor baby).

Is he still eating and moving around freely?

[jim from sydney]

He is eating more than me and swims like a fish........LOL....Jim

[mcloughlin2]

I hope that he just loes the eye...then he can live a happy life.. :D

[jim from sydney]

Hi All...wed 17 aug...an update......eye getting very angry now but discus appears not to be under stress.

have attached some latest pics.......
please note..some pictures may be distressing......regards...Jim

[Merrilyn]

Jim, that's almost unbelievable. Something is surely going to happen soon.

Thoughts are with you hun, and your fish.

[jim from sydney]

Merrilyn.....i am getting very upset about it (hence my little discussion with Mac)......but we are hanging in there......Jim

[Merrilyn]

We all understand how you must be feeling, and I'm sure Mac does too.

Good luck honey.

[mistakes r crucial]

I do, only too well but in slightly different ways. As I said a couple of days ago Jim, you deserve to win this one! The best of luck with this fish, if you win it will feel sooooo good, bullet proof and 7ft tall!
MAC

[jim from sydney]

MAC.....Thank you...Jim

[mcloughlin2]

It is forming another little lump on the side...wat do u think that means??

[jim from sydney]

It is forming another little lump on the side...wat do u think that means??
more difficult times ahead i think...Jim

[marg]

Jim what can I say? I just came on line and as usual came straight to this site and almost had a heart attack!

It does look as though the lump that you can see is the actual tumour itself pushing its' way out, although when you look closely at the Photo's it looks like there are a few small lumps side by side, don't you think?.

I agree with Ladyred - something surely will happen soon.

I can only imagine the stress you are under however whilstever your little mate is eating and swimming I guess the best thing you can do is wait. He obviously isn't letting it stress him, he's definately a tough little nut, hey?.

[poppy]

Jim and sore eye............ my thoughts are with you............ he certainly has one hell of a growth.......... never seen anything like it!!
I hope you are not getting too upset and I hope hes not in pain...........

is there ANYTHING the vet can do???

There was a discussion on THE CAGE MMM (about a month ago) morning radio about vets that perform surgery on fish, Im not sure if there was some here or if it was only OS? I unfortunatly didnt get all of the discussion as I was a t work....

Keep us posted

Poppy

[jim from sydney]

Hi All....Friday 19th.....what can i say.....other than thanks for all the concern every-one has....believe me it helps a lot when i switch on and find so many comments of support. without all of your understanding i may have given in by now.......i sometimes feel that it is time for my friend to go as i know deep down it wont get better, i have tried everything that i can think of.....the thought of the eye falling out taking all the problems with it, is unreal.....if the eye were to burst open......and it will soon i feel.....surely he must then be in terrible agony then.....so why wait???? is it not better to let him go now whilst there is no pain????

a few more bright red lumps are now quickly forming around the perimeter of the eye, changing daily in size and shape....it is difficult to film thru water and get good close-ups....from 20 shots maybe only 1 picture is useful.....he gets very scared looking at the camera and i need to go away for a while before taking other shots.

Jim

have attached 2 mor pics

[marg]

Jim did Karen Mogg say that anything like this was likely to happen? I just wonder what her opinion would be - the eye has changed quite a lot since you originally contacted her - maybe she could advise you as to what the next scenario is likely to be. From what MAC said she is a pretty helpful type of vet so it could be worthwhile contacting her again.

It appears to be changing shape and size pretty quickly now - I don't think that he would be in agony though he probably isn't real comfortable (even though it looks agonizing to us) as he is still eating and moving freely - and as we all know, as soon as our Fish get sick they seem to go off their Food and Hide.

It would be good if he just lost the eye and that was the end of it - I seem to recall Ladyred saying that she has known Fish to survive quite well with only one eye -poor little Tacker.

Best wishes Jim, I will sign in tomorrow and see how you are both holding up.

[mcloughlin2]

Maybe he should be put to sleep...

The eye looks like it would be causing him some pain now.....i hope u dont have to put him to sleep but that to me is the best option for the fish....

Better to pass on while ur not in pain then in pain...

Ps: Jim i havent given up hope but that seems the best thing to do....

[Littlefish]

IMO fish, amphibians, etc don't feel pain the way we do. What's more, they don't stress about discomfort as we do because (I assume) they have no concept of sickness, disability or death (apart from the survival instinct which merely removes them from immediate danger).

When I was living in England, someone thought they would surprise me by popping a red eared slider terrapin into my tank of newts. One of the palmate newts was bitten almost in half (intestines poking out and so on) yet he appeared unaware of the fact and continued to feed and perform his little mating dance in a lopsided sort of way.

In more recent times, I have observed a gambusia (mosquito fish) with its back broken in two places so that it was shaped almost like a Z swimming around happily, feeding and chasing the girls.

There are a lot more examples if I try to remember them.

I reckon Jim is suffering more than the fish.

Sorry, sounds cold, but I mean it to be comforting

Fred

[marg]

Littlefish I tend to agree with you mainly because Jim says that Popeye is swimming around normally and that he is eating better than he (Jim) is.

As I said in my last post, if he wasn't feeling well he would go off his food and hide away as all sick Fish seem to do. They are pretty quick at letting us know when all is not well.

Just keep looking after him Jim (we all know that you are)and if you need to put him to sleep I am sure you will know when, and will be able to do so with a clear conscience. You have tried everything that you could (Forum Members, LFS, Karen Mogg) and now it is up to the man above.

Thinking of you and hoping as hard as I can mate.

[jim from sydney]

Hi All

Sad news....the battle is over...

Yesterday it started bashing its head into everything it could find in the hosp. tank...it scraped the bad eye past anything it could find almost purposely i thought....it was obviously terribly stressed....the eye had become a shockingly red colour and terribly in shape....the main body of the fish lost its bright colour over the last few days and although it ate a lot around the head it was loosing thickness....

this morning i lost him...but i know he is happily swimming with his pals back in the Amazon river, were afterall he belongs.

we only borrowed him for a while, to enjoy......and i did just that...

Thank you, all of my friends on this forum once again......you have all been very supportive indeed, and i dont know who to thank first or last.

Thanks again from both "pop-eye" and me.......

Jim.

[mcloughlin2]

God jim u hav put me in tears :cry: ....an im a guy!!

Im really sorry to hear it and im sure the amazon river has just got back one of itz favorites......

[jim from sydney]

God jim u hav put me in tears :cry: ....an im a guy!!

Im really sorry to hear it and im sure the amazon river has just got back one of itz favorites......

Dont worry Pal, you are not the only one......i share them with you....it has been a very difficult time.....i never would have thought that "a fish" ( if i may be so bold) could have such an influence on me....but heh then we form a special bond with them dont we????

Keep well....Jim

[Darth_discus]

jim i hope you are alright, but look on the bright side you took care of that fish from the word go and i'm sure if that fish were to come back it wouldn't stop thanking you for giving it at least a glimpse of hope.

good luck for the future and your fish

Timothy, darth :cry:

[Merrilyn]

Jim, my heart goes out to you.

You and popeye fought a good fight.

Condolences honey.

:cry:

[marg]

Jim I am so sorry to hear of your loss, I can only imagine how sad you feel.

I know that no-one could have tried harder to save him than you did, but it was not to be. I know it was really stressing you towards the end so maybe it is a blessing that the poor little fellows' battle is over.

God works in mysterious ways.

[jim from sydney]

Timothy.....Merrilyn....Margot.......thanks guys.....i felt pretty sad yesterday and thought about what i would advice some-one in a similar situation to do .....so i picked myself up this morning and went to see George at SLS and bought a couple of great new discus...good quality, great selection and we talked about Kevkoi and all the others and i spent a lot of time with George.

So now to look ahead and put the experience to good use.....

Keep well every-one and when one of you comes to Sydney let me know and we can share some fishy stories over a cup of whatever......
i look forward to that .......Jim

[Merrilyn]

Good on you Jim. Glad you got some more discus.

I'll be in Sydney soon. Just might take you up on that offer of a coffee. :P

Good luck honey.

[jim from sydney]

Good on you Jim. Glad you got some more discus.

I'll be in Sydney soon. Just might take you up on that offer of a coffee. :P

Good luck honey.

Merrilyn
it will be my GREATEST PLEASURE......Jim

[chris]

Hi Jim Ive just read your sad story, must have been awefull to look at.
And very upsetting that nothing could be done.
I think I to have the same problem, my fish has only had 2 or 3 days of the bulging eye.

What does popeye look like if this is Tumour :?:

Please anyone reply....

whats your experiences??????

[dynamixcoder]

i must admit that is the most horrid thing ive ever seen, such a terrible thing to happen to such a beautiful fish...

i vow this to everyone, if my discus became into this condition and its confirmed... im using medication euthanasia to put it down... painless... no suffering...

thats just absolutely ... ugh revolting

thanks for bringing it to the rest of us to be aware and sorry for the loss of a wonderful discus.

[jim from sydney]

i must admit that is the most horrid thing ive ever seen, such a terrible thing to happen to such a beautiful fish...

i vow this to everyone, if my discus became into this condition and its confirmed... im using medication euthanasia to put it down... painless... no suffering...

thats just absolutely ... ugh revolting

thanks for bringing it to the rest of us to be aware and sorry for the loss of a wonderful discus.

Thanks guys.....yes i remember it well although it is 2 years ago now.
It hurt a lot at the time, and i nursed it for months. I even rang eye specialists just to save it. I was told it was not in pain, hard to believe.

Cheers.

[Merrilyn]

This was probably the saddest thing we faced together as a community.

Our friend Jim is a very dedicated fishkeeper and wanted to offer his fish every chance of survival, no matter how slim that chance was.

If you ever wonder why we, the mods and admins, give up our spare time to run a site like this one, it's because of people like Jim.

Such sincere and dedicated people like that make it all worthwhile.

[Greggy]

I know we all like to be touchy-feely and support one another but I have to say that I disagree with how this issue was handled.

Had it been my fish I would have manually removed the eye myself long before it got to the advanced stage that it did. Had it been removed earlier the chances are the bad eye and the problem causing it would now be gone (not all tumors are malignant you know).

More than once I have seen fish that have lost and entire eye due to fighting and/or being attacked by a larger/more aggresive fish, and the fish that lost their eye (once rescued from the attacker of course) goes on to live a completely normal life.

I'm sorry, but in my opinion leaving it get to that stage was a mistake and gave him no chance of survival, although I respect your decision to do so.

Regards,

Greggy

[chris]

So Jim if you had a fish with popeye would you euthinaise straight away, Is fighting this a lost cause.

Are we dealing with cancer.

im only asking cause one of my fish has developed this too.
Ive been told that there is no hope.

[fishgeek]

pop eye is a descriptive term not a diagnosis, that is the problem with it's usage as such

by saying pop eye we are really meaning exopthalmus or prtorusion of the globe(eyeball) from the socket

this is just a visual appearance not a specific cause for that appearnace
there are more statiscally common reasons for this appearance
and there is net lore or the power of repeated guess...
possibly reasons for exopthalmus more commonly incude
odeama or inflammation in the supporting tissue of the eye

marine fish that are recently captured and airlifted appear to suffer with gas accumulation behind the eye
infectious agents that coud be involved include bacteria,viruses,fungi and other parasites
trauma if given appropriate supportive treatment can often be self resolving
neoplasia is rare
riboflavin deficency has lead to eye problems in farmed fish, vitamin A deficency casue's eye lesion in many animals aswell as fish

the list of possibilties makes internet treatment hazardous and sometimes harmful
without physical examination and some testing the best we can do is guess, experience can obviously aid guessing

as for enucleation of the eye, that is probably a good idea, though if people intend to do things like this to their own fish they must consider the suffering aspect..
greggy what would you have used to relax the fish for such a procedure?
how would you have dealt with the pain of such a procedure
i assume animals are protected from 'unecceary suffering' in australia as they are in england
and how would you have sealed the wound after removal of the eye


respectfully
andrew

ps i dont like euthanasia, i have seen too many things recover when even my trained guessing thought they wouldnt
that is purely my personal choice and everyone is intitled to their own choice in that matter

[Merrilyn]

Andrew, thankyou so much for your comments. Jim was constantly in touch with a vet during this whole sad process process.

I know you are a very busy vet, but we really do appreciate the time you take to participate in this forum.

[jim from sydney]

Like all things in life.......

Where is the definition of "right" or "wrong" and "love" for that matter.

Who dares to define these ?????

We can only do any of those, according to our OWN personal feelings, and I am certain that if one feels deep inside that all has been done what could reasably be done, one has succeeded.

I know that my friend is back with his FRIENDS now, ........I only borrowed him for a while. He thaught me a lot.

I appreciate if we can leave it there guys.

Cheers.

[scott bowler]

well said jim and that we shell