Internal (built in filters)

[flukes]

I was wondering if anyone has those built in filters, with the end of the tank sectioned off?? The ones iam refering to are made with a sheet of glass/perspex with an overflow which the water then flows thourgh the bio-balls r\or other media and then the powerhead pumps it back. Know which ones i am talking about.???

Anyway i was wondering what size these are?? Like width. The reason i ask is because iam about to make my first tank, with help from a glassier and i was going to make one of these filters but i dont know how big it should be. I dont want to take away half the tank for filter space.

Thanks
Scott

[Chris McMahon]

Practically, they must be wide enough to take the pump. The general rule for bioballs is 1:30 ie 1 litre of bioballs per 30 litres of tank. Assuming the divided section is 50% bioballs, the remainder being pump, heaters, sump space, divide your tank length by 15 and that'll give you a minimum.

Don't forget to allow space for heaters, the pump, and mechanical filtration (sponge) on top. You can get square bioballs for a neater appearance.

[Proteus]

Personally I would opt for a true mini-reef/sump set up...

Why??? well if it is to be a Discus tank the way in which a sump works, (something to do with the oxygenation of the water and bio-bugs, plus de-gassing) it assists in keeping a consistently low pH. Plus, by having the bio-balls in the wet/dry configuration allows much more beneficial bacterial colonies to grow. Add a good layer of course gauze and a layer of fine grade, yet thick filter wool sheet, and IMO you cant get a better filter.

For maintenance, I just remove and replace the filter wool sheet every week or two... the gauze and bio-balls hold the bacteria... talk about almost maintenance free... (once every 6-12 months a full clean out is advised to remove any detrious that may get into the sump section, plus check and condition the pump & heater).

The end type that you are talking about does work, but for this kind of application I personally would recommend the sump.

HTH (food for thought anyway)

[flukes]

Yeah i was actually thinking of connecting 2 tanks to a wet/dry trickle filter. Easy to make and ver effective. The only thing iam worried about is the pump size, the 2 tanks would be 500lts so i need a pump that is 2000lph, Then its going to be pumped to 3m so really i need a pump that can do 3000-3500lph so its still creating 2000ltr at a 3m head high. A pump this big coud cost me some big bickies and because its going to be on all the time its going to need a good quality brand that will withstand time.
So whats a 'good' submergeable pump that is capable of pumping 3000lph that will last longer than this cheap crap i got for my water storage that broke down in 3months. :evil:

Cheers
Scott

[flukes]

Would it be better to use this wet/dry trickle filter or a cannister filter on each.?? I found a cheap cannister filter. Dont know how good it is but this way the tanks wont be connected, anyway is there anything else that the wet/dry will do thatthe cannister wont??

Cheers
Scott

http://www.aquariumproducts.com.au/category6_1.htm

This first one is the one i was thinking of, i haven't heard of the brand but I asked a few people who use them and they said they were good.

[Chris McMahon]

Try having a look through here (http://www.aquariumproducts.com.au/category2_1.htm). Maybe a King 3 or 4 would suit you. Once you have two tanks to 1 sump things get complected with water levels and flow rates. Thought about using two smaller pumps, instead of one larger one?

[flukes]

Dont know i might go with these cannister filters now because then the tanks arnt connected and desease cant spread.

What do you think?

[Chris McMahon]

Well separate canister are definitely the least likely method to spread disease.

Canisters are easier to setup and use than a trickle. They definitely take up less room.

For a larger tank, or a high bio load nothing beats a trickle filter.

[flukes]

Well the tanks are not going to be overstocked. They both will contain 6 discus each which is under loading. ie 40litres per adult fish.

But its a matter of are these cannister filters anygood,!!!

[Chris McMahon]

Personally I would opt for a true mini-reef/sump set up...

Why??? well if it is to be a Discus tank the way in which a sump works, (something to do with the oxygenation of the water and bio-bugs, plus de-gassing) it assists in keeping a consistently low pH. Plus, by having the bio-balls in the wet/dry configuration allows much more beneficial bacterial colonies to grow. Add a good layer of course gauze and a layer of fine grade, yet thick filter wool sheet, and IMO you cant get a better filter.
If you design the in-tank filter properly it is basically a standard trickle filter / sump anyway. The only difference is that it's in the same glass shell as the tank water, and of course the volume - under tank sumps having plenty of room to media.

Take a look at my under-tank trickle filter / sump (http://users.bigpond.net.au/darkcity/sump.jpg). It's only 50x30x45. I could have built that into one end of my 5x2x2 no problem. It would have worked just as well, the only functional difference would have been a much smaller pump because it would have had only a 2' head rather than 5'. Stretch the height up to 57 from 50, and the width from 45 to 57 (my tank is 150x57x57 internal) and it would only need to be 21cm wide for the exact same volume.

[Chris McMahon]

But its a matter of are these cannister filters anygood,!!!Canister filters are basically 3 things. A box, a pump and media. So how good a canister is really depends on how good the pump is, what media you use and how well the internal design allows the water to flow through the media.

Of the three components, I'd say the media is the most important.

If you simply what the best filter possible, that's a trickle filter. It simply has a greater media capacity. But you'll either have to have one built to your specs, or buy a ready made one - which can be quite expensive.

Also trickle filters (hence their name) trickle the water over the media - which means the media is suspended in air. This great oxygen availability allows the bacteria to perform more efficiently than inside a pressurised canister. So not only can your trickle filter have more media, it is more efficient as well. But it will be more expensive.

You do get what you pay for.

Here's (http://www.aquariumsrus.com.au/filters/trickle.htm) an example of some pre-made under tank trickle filters.

[Proteus]

Chris, all your points are pretty much spot on, however, the one area that the internal system lacks, compared to the external mini-reef is the amount of oxygenation that occurs in the filtration media. As the internal type for the most part has the media submerged...

Scott, Chris made a good point about using 2 smaller pumps, that would work, actually, that would probably be the best option, and you would be surprised how cheap you can get a good pump for... also, look at this from a long term perspective. I would rather pay an extra $100 now, than maybe after 6-12 months, consider upgrading everything... Add a UV and the disease issue is taken care of as well, only one heater is required (or 2 to be safe like me)... remember aside from being beautiful fish, Discus are an investment as well, so they should be afforded every effort to ensure the best quality water they can get... (obvioulsy everyone has there own limits).

[flukes]

Ok the reason Iam leaning towards the cannister filter is because this setup will be in my bedroom. So i want as less noise as possible. Also because its in my bedroom i dont want alot of cords/hoses etc.
I was thinking if i put in a cannister filter with the intake behind a matten humburg filter and also another sponge filter, this would be more than enough to filter the tank.
I was going to do the trickle filter and i do like the setup its just because of the location i dont think its practical. The next stand iam setting up is too hold 4 27g breeding tanks and a 3 fter for growing out pepp bn's.
Because this setup wont be in my bedroom and its alot of smaller tanks i think i might try the trickle filter on this setup.
The only thing iam worried about is that will the cannister filters and matten humburg sponge and another sponge filter if this will be enough. It sounds more than enough but id rather overkill than not have enough.

Thanks for the help guys
Scott

[Chris McMahon]

Chris, all your points are pretty much spot on, however, the one area that the internal system lacks, compared to the external mini-reef is the amount of oxygenation that occurs in the filtration media. As the internal type for the most part has the media submerged...
Not so. It all depends on the height of the partition next to the pump. If you only make it say 15cm high like my design, then the media remains above water level. If you didn't put heaters down there you could remove that partition entirely and only keep the minimum height to keep your pump running, say 2".

The two advantages an under-tank trickle filter has over an in-tank trickle filter is 1)size - you can have a much larger sump for water storage, which effectively increase your tank size by the sump size; and 2) looks - hiding the sump under the tank looks a lot better to most people the an edge on in tank trickle filter.

I've seen a few in-tank trickle filters that run the length of the rear tank wall. These over come the looks problem, but require a wide tank and usually have access issues. They can have those in tank fake 3D backgrounds put in front of them to practically disappear. One of my LFS has an 8x2.5x2.5 set up this way in the front window. They can walk around the back so access isn't an issue for them.

Another way to mitigate the looks issue is to paint the glass back and sides of your tank. Then you'll only see the in-tank filter from above and from the internal wall it shares with the rest of the tank. Smoked glass has been used in these areas with success.

[Proteus]

I would be keen to see a diagram or image of what you are trying to explain Chris... Maybe I am looking at it from a different angle, as the internal trickle systems I have seen are 3/4 submerged... hence my comment previously...

[Chris McMahon]

I would be keen to see a diagram or image of what you are trying to explain Chris... Maybe I am looking at it from a different angle, as the internal trickle systems I have seen are 3/4 submerged... hence my comment previously...See my post of 11:07pm Sunday 11th April, 2004. There's a link to my design diagram.

[flukes]

That diagram is for your external trickle filter, Proteus was saying that the trickle filters inside the tank, the ones this topic is about, dont get the same if any oxygen that the external trickle filters do.

Well i think iam going with the cannister filters :(
Maybe ill try the trickle system for my next stand but this is in my bedroom.

I put the stand in my bedroom today and i feel like iam in a shoe box!! The top tank has 6inches between the top of the tank and the roof!
Dont know how iam going to put discus in that one.

Cheers
Scott

[Chris McMahon]

That diagram is for your external trickle filter, Proteus was saying that the trickle filters inside the tank, the ones this topic is about, dont get the same if any oxygen that the external trickle filters do.The diagram is for a trickle filter. External or internal doesn't alter it's function. Perhaps if you explain why you think an internal trickle filter wouldn't get enough oxygen, I'll understand.

[flukes]

Well i think the filter we are talking about isnt a trickle filter. Really the water is just pumped through a sponge, through the bio balls and back into the other side of the tank. A Trickle filter the water is spread over the bioballs. In the first one the water is in one mass as it passes over the bioballs, the trickle filter it is seperated.

Chris iam not argueing i am just trying to discuss this, Iam not expert, thats why i posted this question in the first place.

Scott

[Proteus]

OK, there is some major confusion happenning here... so everybody take a deep breath...

The internal trickle system that I am aware of has the water level the same as, if not marginally below the rest of the tank due to the flow of the water...

A pump is located at the base of a partitioned off area that pulls water through various layers of filtration media and back in the main body of the tank, hence the guarantee I can make that it has very little if any oxygenation of the bacteria. It basically acts as a canister or regular internal filter passing mass quantities of water over various layers and types of media, floss, foam, gauze, bio-balls, matrix, etc...

I am going to do a search on some other types as maybe you are trying to describe something different... It doesnt help if we are both familiar with different devices, so until I see what you are talking about I dont understand the way in which it works... (hopefully some googling will answer things)

[flukes]

Thats the systme i was talking about Proteus, many aquariums use this in there display tanks as its better than having cannister or trickle filters in the store.

[DiscusMan]

Mini-Reef = Good low maintenace Centralised System. With the addition of UV can be good to stop disease spreading as well. Not ideal for planted tank as CO2 is evaporated off.

Canister = Good disease isolation, Good for planted tanks as CO2 dissolving rate is lower. Maintenace higher and larger chance of losing good bacteria during cleaning, even when using tank water to clean in.

I would say that a reef is better and if you run a centralised system it would be good to have a canister on hand to isolate a tank. Best of both worlds. I think this is how most fish shops run from what i have observed.

I am running 2 cannisters on my large tank but i would swap in an instance for a good reef setup. Money rules thou.

Good luck with your chioce. I got a nice 5 foot reef i am looking to get rid of here BTW :lol:

DiscusMan

[flukes]

Ive decided to go with the cannisters, because its in my bedroom noise must be minimal and space is limited. I am thinking of having the intake of the cannister surrounded with a Matten Humburg filter, ive got good reviews from these. I think an extra sponge filter in each tank wouldn't hurt either.

Cheers
Scott

[vishy]

Hey,
sorry to bring this up again (might be too late) I perchased one of the cheapo canisters and it stuffed up and was quite noisy you'd be better to go for the jebo as they are sold in shops, or the pegasso. but fluvals are the best.
vishy.

[Proteus]

vishy, any chance you could mention what type of canister it is (the noisy one).

Just use facts, and dont use personal opinions. Maybe here are others that have found the same thing.