Another loss :(

[Dave76]

Hi all

Lost another discus from my main tanks this morning :cry: - same symptoms as previous losses see http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2987

Have two discus hiding - the other two seem fine & look like they are getting ready to spawn!

About to do an 80% water change again. I was thinking of dosing the entire tank with prazi as one of my other discus (never been into this main tank) had tapeworms after treatment.

My concern is the tankmates - cories, bristlenoe, loaches, rams, rummynose & lemon tetras - would they be ok wih the prazi ? Or should I look at setting up another tank pulling the discus & just treating them.

Regards

Dave

[mtchye]

Prazi is completely harmless to other fish as well as filter bacteria so I would not hesitate to treat the whole system. Good luck.

[axelfaz]

dave i just treated my whole system with prazi and it did not harm my cories, bristlenoe, loaches, rams, rummynose and cardnials are you using aged water for this large water change.

[leanne31]

I would suggest taking your catfish and loaches out as prazi can harm them not in all instances but I treated my tank and for the first dose they were ok but when I repeated it in 7 days like you should they died and the same thing happened to my sisters the problem is they are bottom feeders and as prazi does tend to settle a lot on the bottom they get a much stronger dose but this is my opinion its up to you.

Leanne

[mtchye]

I've never had this problem and the only thing about taking any fish out and treating the tank and then putting the untreated fish back in is the fact that if in fact you have flukes or tapeworms you will be reintroducing the pathogen right back into the system..

I guess as with any med your mileage will vary and if you see signs of discomfort do a large water change asap. Also treat the tap water with a good water conditioner such as prime because during winter the rains can wash lots of undesirables into our dams and the water corp can also sometimes beef up their doses of treatments to cope.

Good luck

[Dave76]

Thanks all for the responses & advice.

I have always used tap water & prime for my water changes - no problems until recently - I've ordered an RO unit & big storage tank - they should all be here next week.

I've had to go down the different tank route for now - a 4ft 50 gal - don't have enough prazi to treat 240gal :( and haven't been able to get anymore today.

I'm just about to set it up now and move everyone over - will be doing a big water change on main tank as well.

Depending on the outcome of the discus treatment I'll look at doing the whole tank next - the discus are the only fish effected that's the strange thing....the panda corys are going at it like rabbits & the discus are dieing.....

Regards

Dave

[Dave76]

I don't understand these darn fish - one of the females is starting to lay *sigh* - should I leave those two in & remove the other 2 perhaps for treatment ?

Ironic that the 2 who are spawning are the 2 who wouldn't spawn in a smaller breeding tank and were moved to the main tank for a pair who would always spawn in the main tank but haven't done a thing in a breeding tank.

Dave

[Merrilyn]

Okay Dave, we've got to get to the bottom of this problem, so let's do the prazi treatment for tapeworms first, then do a follow up treatment with levamisole to really clean them out. You'll need to treat all the tankmates too.

The trouble with having tankmates in with discus, is that they can carry a parasite with no ill effects, but the discus can get it, and it can be serious or sometimes fatal.

Most of the purists won't have anything in their tank with discus.

Good luck Chris.

[Dave76]

Well after 2 days of prazi one of the fish expelled quite a few tapeworms.

I'm having trouble getting hold of levamisole - i think I ang or visited every petstore / rural store in Perth on Saturday - can anyone point me in the direction of someone who stocks it.

The fish that had the worms is now VERY skittish occassionly jsut swimming around in circles flipping out etc.

I've kept the tank covered with a blanket & started doing 60-70% daily water changes.

Anything else I can do ?

Regards

Dave

[mtchye]

Hi Dave,

Last time I bought some, I actually went to city farmers and they said they could order it in for me. However the guy there was really helpful (City Farmers High Road in Willetton) and he suggested I go to a rural supply store somewhere near Kenwick as they would be cheaper and on the shelf. Now of course I have forgotten what that store is called but perhaps you can call in to your local city farmers and ask or browse the yellow pages for rural supply stores and ring them.

What you want to ask for is Big L pig and poultry wormer but they may have heard of a similar more famous product called Nilverm Pig and Poultry wormer.

The avian products that contain levamisole also contain another wormer and looks a little cloudy, may contain glucose or some other additive which is why I did not use it. Also it was more expensive.

HTH
Vincent

[Dave76]

Thanks for the info

I've found somewhere you can buy it online - 24hr shipping.

For anyone else who is looking for it

http://www.horsesuppliesdirect.com.au/prod964.htm

Regards

Dave

[mtchye]

Nice work. The shipping makes it a little expensive but the convenience is great.

[mtchye]

Might be worth getting a few bottles as the shipping is flat rate up to 5kgs.

I'm tempted to get in on a shipment as well, maybe a bottle or two, as I'm just about out on the last bottle. Let me know if you are ordering.

[Dave76]

Well just got home

Another dead discus - this time one of my breeders in a completely different tank setup - nothing at all shared between these tanks and the main tanks - so I'm starting to think it may be something water related, that seems to be the only common thing.

I'm going to dose these tanks next with prazi etc - should i look at tetracycline or trisulfa as well (afterwards or before ?

Dave

[leanne31]

It does sound like a prob with your water maybe or perhaps your food have you checked to see if it got contaminated with something or perhaps you use the same equipment for both tanks are all your water parameters ok do use tap water or ro just a couple of things for you to think about gee I hope you find out the problem and good luck.

Leanne

[Dave76]

Hi Leanne

Food atm is frozen bloodworms & mysis shrimp, sera flora & colour bits.

All equipment is different - I have seperate equipment on all tanks.

I've always just used straight tap water - I've ordered an RO unit - it should be here this week hopefully.

Thanks for the support. It is really disheartening having to pull all these fish out :(

Dave

[leanne31]

It would have to be something in your water then from what Ive seen on the weather lately hasnt Perth had a lot of rain maybe its changed the conditions to much and its affecting your fish lets hope your ro gets to you sooner than later then.

Leanne

[Merrilyn]

Oh Dave, I am so saddened by this.

It must be water related.

Try having a talk to your local fish shop and see if they are having problems with the water too.

[Dave76]

Hi LR and Leanne

Thanks for the support - I just got home from the Perth Cichlid Society meeting - a couple of other people have reported more flashing in cichlids recently - unfortunately there weren't any other discus keepers there tonight to discuss further.
We had a really interesting talk given by a lady who works at the fisheries dept in diseases / parasites etc & also a vet who is also a cichlid breeder. He is going to do a house call for me this week hopefully - didn't have his diary with him so will be organising tomorrow. He will do gill & skin scrapings and depending on the outcome can also euthanise & post mortem a fish to see if the problem is internal, so hopefully we'll get to the bottom of this - I haven't done any water changes tonight, I think tomorrow I'll get a few big bottles of spring water and use that if my RO hasn't arrived.

I've spoken to 3 FS over the weekend, none reported anything similar. I live in a hills suburb so our water is very different to that in the flats according to water corporation - ours is usually 80-90% dam water and minimal ground water, whereby in the flats it is more ground less dam - they don't like pumping ground water uphill :) There aren't any LFS up the hill tho - all down in the flats & I don't know any other fish keepers in the hills. The thing that still has me baffled is why it is only the discus showing sysmptoms & dieing......

Thanks again for the support - it's good to hear something other than 'oh well its just a fish' whih is what I get from others....

Dave

[Merrilyn]

Dave, I hope he finds some answers for you.

Good luck mate.

Let us know the results :(

[Dave76]

Well unfortunately I won't be seeing the vet until Tuesday of next week now. :(

I've still got the 4 discus in the 50 gal - it's only about 70% full atm as the one who had the worms keeps 'freaking out' and flip flopping out of the water whenever I take off the blanket I've got covering the tank - seems to calm her down. She is always hiding in the corner stress bars fully out - I haven't seen her eating in the last couple of days either.

The other 3 are fine, hopefully my levamisole will be waiting at home to dose tomorrow, otherwise I'll do a 2nd dose of prazi I think.

All I've been adding is salt and doing about 15-20% water changes daily. Little changes in case there is something nasty in the water. I've also added a pile of carbon to remove any nasties if they are there.

Anything else anyone can suggest I can try ?

Thanks

Dave

[leanne31]

Id be aging my water for a good 48hrs with a airstone and heater as well.

Leanne

[Dave76]

Well I lost another fish on Sunday night - i was onto it quite quickly so removed and sliced open the body to expose the organs & then stored the fish in metho. This fish is off for a post mortem / analysis.

I took 2 fish into the vet today along with the body.

The one from in question above has a very high number of protozen in her poop, so we suspect the same for the other 3 fish in the 50 gal. Was prescribed metro - dose 2x400mg tablets every day at foodtime, change 50% of water between treatments. Treat for 7 days.

The 2nd fish is the headstander with the white spots on her - the spots are the result of a parasit he couldn't identify getting infected. Will be treating with formalin based med for 7 days. (About the only thing this fish hasn't been treated with)

Hopefully we are finally getting somewhere & will stop losing fish.

Dave

[leanne31]

I wish you luck Dave, I hope things start looking a bit better for you soon.

Leanne

[Merrilyn]

Good luck Dave. I hope the autopsy gives you some results.

[Dave76]

Thanks Leanne & LR - appreciate the support.

I have been doing a bit more research into winter rains & increased nutrients / protozoa / water parameters etc & apparently it is quite common that during / after winter run offs for increased 'crap' to be in the water.

I've also noticed a distinct clorine smell in the tap water in this past week so I'm *guessing* there may have been something in the water they have been trying to kill ....

Dave

[Dave76]

Well the autopsy results are in, apparently there was an extremely bad case of internal protozoa that had infested the intestines. There was also some gill tissue damage.

The recommended treatment was metro 400mg/100litres per day for 7 days initially & prazi at normal dosage weekly for 4 weeks at the same time.

Dave

[ctvu]

uumm. As per LR we got the same protozoa down here Melb.
May I ask where you got the fish from?

ctvu

[Dave76]

you have PM ctvu

In talking with the vet and doing a lot of reading / homework we are suspecting either the water - winter run off / crap in the pipes etc, or the blackworm treats I was feeding to enduce the spawnings.

Dave

[ctvu]

Hi Dave

Thanks for sharing your info.

ctvu

[Dave76]

After a week of metro & 2 doses of prazi so far all of my surviving discus are doing well. I've still got a couple more doses of prazi to go yet.

Thanks everyone for their advice & support.

Dave

[jim from sydney]

Dave....you guys had a lot of rain in Perth of late, and the waterboard people may have done something to the water quality.......just out of interest why not contact them, they are always helpful......JIm