DISCUS BREEDING BASICS - a beginners guide.

[Merrilyn]

If you are aiming to breed these magnificent fish, then I would suggest you start off with 4 or 6 juveniles of the one colour, and allow them to pair naturally in the community tank.

I always allow my young pairs to lay eggs at least two or three times in the community tank, before I give them their own tank. I believe this makes for a stronger pair bond, and because they have had to defend their eggs or fry, they are not so prone to egg eating later.

My community and grow out tanks run at a pH of around 7.2 to 7.4, and I add shellgrit to the floor of the tank to buffer the pH and prevent crashes. If your water is very soft, like mine, this is the simplest way to provide stable water conditions. The increased calcium in the water is beneficial to the bones of young growing discus.

The breeding tank needs to be more acid than that, around 6.5 to 6.8. But try to achieve this by filtering through peat moss for the most natural conditions. More acid water will increase the slime production on the parents.

You will need a separate tank to place the breeding pair in. I like to use a 2 foot cube, but you could use a 2ft 6 inch standard tank, or even a three foot standard. Don't go any bigger than that. The fry need to be able to find their parents, and it's more difficult in a large tank. The breeding tank needs to be thoroughly cleaned and filled with newly aged water, the same pH as in the community tank. The only thing I have in the tank, is a breeding cone, sometimes two, and a sponge filter which I have had running in a mature tank for two weeks to build up a good colony of beneficial bacteria.

Nothing else, no gravel, and no plants. You can black out the sides and back and bottom of the tank to give the pair a feeling of privacy. That tends to help them feel more secure, and they seem to spawn sooner.

When everything is ready, gently catch the pair, and move them into the breeding tank which should still be the same pH as the community tank. Now you can begin to slowly drop the pH by adding peat filtered water at each daily water change. I like to change about 20% daily at this stage, with water that is slightly cooler than the surrounding water. A drop of around 2 degrees in the change water can sometimes trigger spawning.

The pair will begin inspecting the cone and start cleaning a suitable place to lay thier eggs. This is usually accompanied by much shivering and bowing on the part of the pairs, followed by vigorous cleaning. The breeding tubes will be evident at this time. The female has a round blunt tube, about the size of a match head, while the male has a smaller, more pointed "v" shape tube. Finally the female will begin to make test runs up the cone. She will make several runs, before actually laying any eggs.

The male should be standing guard at this time, and as soon as the first row of eggs has been laid, he should swim over the eggs and fertilise them. Sometimes the female will lay two rows of eggs before the male swims over them, but they are easily distracted at this stage, so try not to sit too close to the tank, and certainly don't allow any strangers near.

Once all the eggs have been laid, the pair will stand guard, fanning and mouthing them. This keeps them clean and prevents fungus. They usually share this task, but sometimes squabbles can break out, and in extreme cases, you may have to split the pair, and allow just one parent to raise the brood.

Eggs can be any colour, from yellow to dark orange. As the fry develop, the eggs turn darker. Infertile eggs will begin to turn white, and are usually picked off by the parents. Fertile eggs will begin to hatch after three days, and the fry will be free swimming in another two days. It is fairly normal for the parents to help the fry out of the eggs by mouthing them, and sometimes moving them to a different spot on the cone. Any fry that fall, will be quickly picked up by the parents, and spat back into the middle of the brood.

During this time, I still do normal waterchanges of around 10% daily, trying not to disturb the parents too much. Although I find the parents are not very interested in food at this time, I still offer beef heart mix or frozen bloodworms and sometimes granules. Feed very sparingly, so as not to foul the tank, and syhphon any leftovers.

Two days after hatching the fry will become free swimming. At first, the parents will catch them and try to spit them back into the brood again, but soon they will find their way to the sides of the parents and start eating. At this time, there should be nothing dark in the tank. If the filter sponge is dark, wrap it in white filter wool. We want the darkest thing in the tank to be the parents. Dimming the lights a little can help this process, but it can take a day or two for all the fry to find their way to the parents sides.

For the first two weeks, I like to leave a table lamp on next to the tank, day and night, so the fry don't become lost in the dark. It also encourages them to eat constantly, and I find better growth rate that way.

The parents should take turns in feeding the fry, and you will notice one parent signal to the other that it's time to take over feeding duties, then move alongside the other and give a quick shake. All the fry move from one parent to the other.

At around one week, you can begin introducing live baby brine shrimp to the fry. Using an eye dropper or turkey baster, gently allow the shrimp to roll down the sides of the parent. Soon the fry will begin to recognise the shrimp as food, and begin eating. Their transparent bellies turn orange as they gorge on the brine shrimp. You can feed them baby brine shrimp three or four times a day for maximum growth, and then at three weeks I begin feeding finely grated frozen beef heart, as well as the shrimp.

Remove them from the parents at about 5 or 6 weeks, or as soon as it is obvious that the parents have had enough, or are preparing to spawn again.

[marg]

Ladyred that is fantastic!!. I am only a beginner - I haven't had any success yet, but you have certainly given me some idea of how everything works.


I have a Pigeon Blood Female and a Red Dragon Male - they spawned heaps of times on a flowerpot in the community tank - they ate the eggs a few times then even got to wriggler stage - they then placed them in the corner and were looking after them - really protective of them - but before they got to the stage of feeding from the parents they lost them ( mainly because of the size of the tank).

I moved them into a 2 foot tank and put a sponge filter in with them and they again spawned on the flowerpot however after two days they ate them. :cry: That was about 3 weeks ago. Since then they haven't spawned again :evil: Is that normal?. Up until then they had been spawning regularly about every 8 days. I ended up putting them back in the community tank a week ago in the hopes that they might start up again but so far no luck. Is there anything that I can do to get them going again? I'd really love to successfully breed some more of these beautiful fish, they've really got me sucked in.

[DR.V]

Good work ladyred. Im really impressed. You should start writing a book about discus. ^^

[marg]

I agree with you Jim. Speaking of Books, does anyone know of any Books they would reccomend on this subject?

[DR.V]

Jim ???
Hmmm you still need a book ?? Isn't this good enough ?? Hehe ^-^

[marg]

This site is fantastic, I'm not knocking it, but as well as a Discuholic, I am also a Bookaholic.

I am so glad I found this site - I applied to join the Australian Discus Association last week and am still waiting for a reply. When I rang the Secretary (James Tilley) directed me to this site and boy am I glad he did:D . Apparently there was no ADA Meeting this month, but I hope to be able to get someone to take a drive with me next month and attend their meeting.

The Site has already helped me with a problem that I was experiencing - I particularly enjoy reading Ladyreds' comments - i think she is brilliant :!:

[Merrilyn]

Margot, it's quite normal for them to have a run of spawning, and then to rest for a couple of months.

As soon as you signs of spawning behaviour, move them into the spawning tank, and follow the instructions above. You should soon have lots of lovely baby discus of your own. :wink:

[marg]

Thanks Ladyred, I thought that something like that might happen. I will keep watching them and let you know how I go.

Thanks for your help - how long have you had Discus? You seem to know so much about them and I really enjoy reading your advice and comments. :)

[Merrilyn]

Glad to help. I've had discus for around thirty years. Don't breed so many now, just the occasional batch.

[sxyrollaboy]

Hey i was just wondering... Do u still feed the parent Discus as per normal while they are in the breeding tank?

Matt

[Merrilyn]

Hi rollaboy, welcome to the forum.

Yes I do still feed the parents in the breeding tank. I find once they have eggs, they are not very interested in food, but I still do offer their normal food, but not quite so much as usual, so as not to foul the tank.

[goldenpigeon]

welcome to DF.com matt! :D

[spencer]

Hi Ladyred
Can I ask why you say to use juveniles of the one colour?
I bought 7 juveniles, all different,as I thought it might be nice to see what they will come up with when pairing off & breeding, But now I am not sure after reading this.
I would like to thank you for all the help you give to me & people on this forum, I very much appreciate your advice
Regards Max

[rytis]

If you are aiming to breed these magnificent fish, then I would suggest you start off with 4 or 6 juveniles of the one colour,
why of one color? i have 9 different colors :?

[nag]

Hi Rytis:

That's fantastic!!
I'd say you'll have great combo frys to look forward!!...
Enjoy...

[nicholas76]

If you are aiming to breed these magnificent fish, then I would suggest you start off with 4 or 6 juveniles of the one colour,
why of one color? i have 9 different colors :?

most breeders try and improve a strain not dirty it up so to speak.

although generally you may actually cross breed to get desired results, its generally planned not a hit and miss thing.

[Benny]

agreed Nick!!!

One breeder doesnt have the ability i dont think (unless its a crazy malaysian breeder) to creat a new strain of discus, so rather then having mutts, its better to breed discus of the same strain, or very simmilar, to better the offspring, rather then making weird mutations of either strain of the parents...

[quocphu]

Hi Ladyred.

I currently have only 4 babies discus out of around 40 (my very first time) because my box filter intake took most of them ( i cover the intake with sponge but because it is dark and still has little gaps which the babies get sucked into, next time i will put a white net around the sponge intake as well), they are two weeks old now (4), the father seems to have the babies most of the time.

I would like to know if i can skip the baby brime shrimp part which i wont feed them ( they are too hard to do also i have 200L tank the babies will never find the shrimp), i still feed the parent discus dinner which each time they eat there are heaps of little pieces like a clound everywhere, can the babies eat those and feeding from the parent bodies until they reach the stage where they can get food on their own?.


Also if we use pair from the same parent and this may happen again down to the next few generation does it has any ill effect on the quality of the fish? (inbreed?), becuase i think it is so hard to find match colour fish come from different strain that also pair up.

Steven

[Brad]

Steven

there has been ppl that have tried not feeding baby brines shrimp (BBS) but it is truely the best way to raise discus fry. I normally offer BBS at around day 5-6 and then normally remove from parents around day 21 but can be dependant on how the pair are behaving

Here is a link to help you with BBS, it is quite simple once you have the hang of it.
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/hatchingartemia.html

If you really wanted to raise the fry it is best to move the pair to a seperate breeder tank.
chances of fry survival in a community tank is slim.
Like ladyred suggested earlier.

2x20x20 is fine for breeders as it is what i used and that size is still fine for the youngens when you move them out into their own tank.

Sponge filter is by far the best wrapped in filter wool so i is brightly coloured.
Anything else and you really do risk the fry.

Ladyred's suggestion to buy group of the same strain is best.
it is easy if you purchase 6-8 or so at the same time.if you orgnised with LFS you will get the same strain.Also note not all fish will be exactly the same as they are a living things and not made in a factory.

IMO breeding sibling is wrong.
It can develop a genetically weak fish over the generations and lead to abnormalities.

It is really best to always have unrelated pairs were ever possible as i would not like to see these inbreed fish enter the market.
All these fish should be culled IMO.
it may sound harsh but we should always be tring to improve the fish.

[SandyLynne]

Hi Merrilyn

Thankyou for your post on breeding basics. I have got to the wriggler stage but that is as far as I get. :(

I have read too many articles on waterchanges and would appreciate your help.

When they get to the egg stage you do a 10% water change each day, are you using a decloronator such as prime for the 10%, plain tap water or aged water.

Do you prefer Prime or Aquatan?

With aged water has it already been declorinated with one of the above?

This time my discus had a good number of eggs but they all died within 48 hours. Just wondering what I am doing wrong. We got to the wriggler stage just over a month ago, and they have eggs every 1-2 weeks but would love to get further than this.

[Hobbs]

Your post was great and very helpful. For instance, I had no idea that Discus of the same color should be bred so glad I'm doing some reading before jumping into it.

Life would be so much simplier if we could actually sex some of these fish before ending up with 7 males and one female.

[Fat Discus]

So will peat moss alter/lower your ph levels, Or will it just stablise ur ph? how is it used? Do you just bag it up and add it in ur corner air filter?

[Fat Discus]

Ah Ha!!!
you add peat moss into the filter that is in ur aged water, correct Merrilyn???
im still curriouse about the question I asked above

Tha
Chris

[ILLUSN]

G'day Chris, i put it into a fine mesh bag and shove it into the canister filter of my water aging tank, works a treat just remember to replace each month.

[Fat Discus]

Hi illusn, thanks for the advice. Could you also put it in individual tanks along with the filters?

So the peat moss will bring ur ph levels down and stablise it?

Chris

[samir]

G'day Chris, i put it into a fine mesh bag and shove it into the canister filter of my water aging tank, works a treat just remember to replace each month.

imo you're just complicating things. Sydney water is very soft. use aquamaster pond ph down. it comes in a 500 ml bottle for around $12 - $15. around 35 ml will get 250 litres of Sydney tap water down to 6-6.5.
clean your fish of all bugs, Andrew Soh has a method posted somewhere. you may have a problem with fry mortality so concentrate on that. the water part in Sydney is easy, no need for peat.

[Fat Discus]

Thanks samir.

Im not a s%*t stirrer, but whos advice do i take? hahaha lol Just Kidding!!!

thank you both for comments they have both been taken into consideration.

Chris

[samir]

I'm talking about Sydney. Are you in Sydney ?

[purplefishtail]

I had a question about young discus breeding. I have a pair that spawned for the first time yesterday evening (yay, my first spawn!), and they seem to get the concept alright. They're being very protective of their eggs and have shown no desire to eat them.

What I'm wondering is if they are too young to be breeding. They are 5-6 inches in size and still have a good amount of growth going on. I'm wondering if breeding while they're still growing will have negative effects on the parents. They are currently in a community tank, so I have no expectations that this batch will make it (to be honest I'm suprised they made it through the night). Should I leave the pair in the community tank or is it ok to give them their own tank and start breeding now? Is there some age or size they should be before they're allowed to raise fry?

[purplefishtail]

One more question...I also was wondering about methyl blue. I've seen recommendations to use it, but am unclear on what it does and how much is supposed to be used.

Thanks for all your help with us newbies.

[Merrilyn]

From my experience, breeding at an early age does tend to slow their growth down, however, this first batch may well vanish in the community tank, so won't be much of a problem.

I'd give them a few more months of growing time in the community tank before moving them to a breeding tank of their own.

Methylene blue is only used if the parents don't clean their eggs properly, and you're having problems with fungus developing. It's often used by breeders who take the eggs from the parents (as in angel fish) to hatch them in a separate tank. Angel parents are notorious egg eaters and the eggs can be hatched and the fry raised quite successfully on their own. Unlike discus, angel fry don't feed off the slime coat on their parents' body.

It can prevent discus parents developing a proper slime coating to feed their fry, so if you are going to use it, then only use it on the day the eggs are laid, and add carbon to the filter after 2 days to remove all the meth blue, and give the parents a chance to develop a slime coat.

Personally I don't use it on discus. I find that if you lower the pH slightly, to around 6, fungus isn't a problem.

[fatbui]

Hi Merrilyn,

First of all very nice article!

I am having a major problem in raising the babies past the 3-4wk mark. They have been eating perfecting until they reach 2cm mark and start fall off in big numbers at a time. Water changes are done daily with aged water and feeding them BBS, microworms and crushed color bits.

Recently i have microscoped one of the babies and found they were smothered with Flukes all around their gills. Parents are always treated with Potassium Permanganate regularly, but seem to also come back. Why is this?

Is there a way of treating these babies?

What can i treat them with and the dosage?

Is keeping the parents clean from flukes the only way to raise discus fry successfully?

Thanks :(
Tyce

[Merrilyn]

Hi Tyce. Gill flukes are a major cause of fry deaths, especially in the 3 to 6 week period when most fry are being weaned off the parents.

I've found the only way to ensure good survival rates is to make sure the parents are as clean as possible before going into the breeding tanks, with two consecutive treatments of gill and body fluke medication then straight into a sterilized breeding tank. The filter you use will have to be cycled using a fishless cycle because any flukes or eggs in the filter media will immediately be transferred to your breeding tank.

Everything needs to be as clean as possible, and I would even take the precaution of adding a UV sterilizer to the tank.

I have heard of strains of gill flukes that needed extreme measures, using very high concentrations (under the guidance of a vet) before the breeding stock was clean.

[rheemas]

Hi Merrylin,

I am very pleased that in the last week my blue diamonds have decided to pair up in my community tank and had a batch of eggs which they cared for two nights before eating them on the third night :( Now I have the bug for trying to get some fry and even my wife has become interested!!

Excuse my ignorance but could you please explain how to do a fishless tank cycle as mentioned in previous post???

[DIY]

Excuse my ignorance but could you please explain how to do a fishless tank cycle as mentioned in previous post???

http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=895&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0

http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=128559&highlight=fishless#128559

Enjoy :wink:

Clear ammonia is my preferred method as it is "cleaner" and seems more sterile to me than a prawn but I haven't been able to find any for some time, if anyone does find it please post or pm me where it's available :ug

[Merrilyn]

It seems that pure ammonia was taken off the market after the disaster of 9/11. I haven't been able to find any since then. It's supposed to be an ingredient in bomb making or something.

Anyway, end result, it's no longer available so we have to use something that gives off a large ammount of ammonia to start the cycle.

A decomposing dead prawn does the job very nicely, and is easily available. Definitely not as scientific as the pure ammonia method, because you can't control the amount of ammonia released, but it does work, and you will achieve the same result. A fully cycled filter !

After all, it's the filter that we want to cycle, not necessarily the tank. Although some bacteria do live on the hard surfaces of the inside of the tank, the majority of the bacteria are in the filter itself.

Ammonia is their food, they need both food and oxygen to survive. Remove the food (in other words the ammonia) and the bacteria colony will die off, so once your tank is cycled, and you are getting zero ammonia, zero nitrite and a good reading of nitrate, then drain the tank, clean down the sides and refill with clean aged water. Restart your filter (do all this fairly quickly or your bio colony will die from lack of oxygen) and you're ready to add all your fish.

No need to wait and add a few at a time. You can safely add all the fish at once and your filter will cope.

[jimmyg]

Hello everyone just a couple of questions. I have a breeding pair of discus that are awesome fish they breed all the time but this week is a big nightmare for me. I have 2 lots of there babies around 140 from 6 weeks to 10 weeks of age fish from 2 batches in seperate tanks and took the parents away.

But the parents cureently have babies on them at 5 days old and guess what she has laided about another 100+ egss.

What should I do the babaies are way to young to take of the oparents but the eggs are due to hatch by late tomorrow night.

Please throw some info I have never heard of this.

Thanks
Jimmy

[Doug Osborn]

<snip>

A decomposing dead prawn does the job very nicely, and is easily available. Definitely not as scientific as the pure ammonia method, because you can't control the amount of ammonia released, but it does work, and you will achieve the same result. A fully cycled filter !

After all, it's the filter that we want to cycle, not necessarily the tank. Although some bacteria do live on the hard surfaces of the inside of the tank, the majority of the bacteria are in the filter itself.<snip>

Hi,

I'm reading up on fishless cycling to learn the technique before setting up my new tank, and I'd started to twig that establishing the bacteria colony in the filter (rather than the tank) was the idea.

So my question (forgive me if it's just plain silly), so why does the tank need to be involved at all? Why wouldn't you attach the filter to (eg) a bin full of water and chuck the prawn in the bin to cycle the filter if that's the target? This would save draining and refilling the tank (and removing prawn remains...).

The bacteria colony could then be 'fed' for as long as necessary until the filter was transferred to a (stocked) tank.

Would that work?

Thanks,
Doug

[DIY]

The tank doesn't need to be involved at all, I have some sponge filters in a large plastic storage container right now cycling away. I cycled my last sponge in a bucket and it worked great.

[rheemas]

Hi,

I am proud to say I now have my first batch of 20 day old discus (about 60 in total) :D . I had to remove the male on the 13th as he was becoming quite agressive to the female. I then removed the female on the 14th as she got eaten alive once the male was gone and could not take any more nibbling!

I have been feeding the babies on frozen baby brine shrimp 3 times a day (1/2 cube per feed) and only lost one small individual to date. I was wondering if this amount of food is sufficent or if I need something else as well now?

The babies are about 10mm long after 20 days - is this growth rate about right?

[Laz]

If you are aiming to breed these magnificent fish......... again.

Hi Merrilyn,

Thank you for that excellent beginner's guide. This afternoon I watched my first discus fry hatch out :D . The parents are taking turns now, one caring for the fry while the other stands sentry, then with a flick of the fins, swapping positions and roles. Reading your guide has been most helpful to me so thanks again.

Cheers
Larry

[redmelon]

the babies discuss free swimmer now, do i need to clean up the tank every day? i am to hesitant to clean it because the parent may eat it... what can you advise, do i clean the tank or not... i don't want to disturb them even the sponge filter still black...

[Fishyyy]

So how big do they mate at? how many cms

[rex82]

So how big do they mate at? how many cms
they start showing signs at around 12 months