Gill Fluke Questions ?

[Dee]

Hi All,

I seem to be having a reoccuring problem with gill flukes. I have treated with AquaMaster gill fluke and tapeworm 100mg prazi tabs at 5ppm as directed on the bottle. I also did the second treatment seven days later, also as directed on the bottle. The second 48 hour treatment finished last tues pm 10/5/05.

With both treatments, it seems symptoms slowly dissipate then seven days later the symptoms reappear which lead me to thinking it's a flukes problem, (gill flukes life cycle being approx 7 days). Symptoms are flicking of dorsal and pelvic fins, clamped and single gill breathing, flashing against objects in the tank, hiding, diminishing appetite and what I can only describe as kinking their body's sideways, if that makes sense?. The effected ones sometimes "clamp up" before flashing against the objects. Not all discus in the tank show these symptoms.

My water is as follows --

Ph 6.8
30c
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate 5ppm
KH 2
I have been using AquaSonic carbonate hardness generator powder to raise KH from 1 or under. This was done over a 2 week period which in turn has raised my PH from 6.4 to to around 6.8ish ... again this was done over a 2 week period in my water storage tank, not quickly and has stabilized my Ph.

I change 30% water daily, storage water is activated carbon filtered, KH adjusted, aerated and heated to 30c for 24hours prior to pumping into the main tank.

My questions are ...

1. Can flukes lead to diminished appetite, it seems appetite picks up then drops off again after treatment ?
2. Can flukes effect some fish and not others ?
2. Are there any other water parameters that could cause such symptoms ie: heavy metals etc. anything else I should be testing for ?
3. Could the addition of KH generator powder be causing this ? If so I will use shell grit.

or

Do I just have a persistent case of super flukes :evil: ? Should I just redose with prazi as described above ? I just dont want to be to heavy handed with the prazi, as it does seem to effect the fish mildly during the 48 hour treatment period. Sorry for the long post, I just wanted to include all the info I could. Any thoughts would be most appreciated.

Cheers,

Dee :)

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi Dee,

I have had similar issues over the last 2 months with flukes, just couldn't get rid of them completely even after using both Sterazin and Prazi. In the finish I used Trichlorofon which worked but my Discus did not like it at all, it appears to be a very heavy drug and caused them to become quite aggressive and nervous. I was using alot more than the recommended dose on the advice of my vet which is probably why I got the side affects but it did the job.

Flukes can put fish off their food if the infestation is bad enough. They will also affect some fish and not others in my experience. I don't know the answers to your last two questions but I doubt your Kh powder would cause these symptoms.

In my opinion it is no use giving them another treatment of Prazi if your first two doses didn't work, I would try something else but maybe give your vet a call first, most of them are very helpful and don't charge like the rest of the medical profession or at least mine doesn't.

I think treating resistant strains of bacteria and parasites is quickly becoming an everyday part of Discus keeping in Australia, the problems being brought in from overseas are scary to say the least and to be frank something needs to be done about it but that's a debate all of its own.

Best of luck shifting those pesky little suckers!
MAC

[Merrilyn]

Dee, unfortunately I'm hearing more and more of these super resistant strains. Perhaps it's time we all put our heads together and see where we stand on this problem, and just how many of us have been affected.

[Ben]

Hi Everyone,

Dee, i have just had the same problem, i finshed the second treatment of prazi just over a week ago and it looks like 2 tanks have had a reocurance of flukes. The Fish still seem to eat quite well though.
I have a 1000ml bottle of formalin i am yet to try, but i want to try it on some "guinea pig" discus first as formalin is very dangerous stuff!

What i will try for the dosage rate of formalin is
2ml for every 36 litres of water, %90 water change at 8 hours, repeat 3 times over 3 days.

As Merrilyn said, we all need to put our heads together on this one.


Ben

[CKY]

Ben what strength formalin are you using? If It's aquarium industry strength should be 37-40%, if it's medical strength you might knock off more than just the fluke. I would try Formalin first and then use Metro if 3 treatments of Formalin have not worked :) It's preferable when using formalin alone to give the fish a short or long bath in it rather than treating the whole tank. If you need the doeages to do this let me know.

Try mixing metro in your food. Standard dose for mixing into your food would be 1000mg/1gram per 100grams of food.

[Ben]

Thanks CKY for the advise, the formalin i have is %37, and was purchased through an aquarium goods suppler. IT may take some time but i will set up a 2 foot tank with one discus for treatment.
See what happens....
Other than preserving 2 headed snakes what else is formalin used for?

Cheers,
Ben

[mistakes r crucial]

Does Metro treat flukes CKY?
MAC

[leanne31]

Im sure metro is for hex only not for flukes.

Leanne

[CKY]

Unconvetionally you can treat flukes via food with Metro. I would seperate the fish into a treatment tank and go from there.

[Dee]

Hi All,

Thanks to MAC, Merrilyn, Ben and CKY for all the info and advice, it's most appreciated. :) As for using Formalin or Trichlorofon I'm not confident I know enough about the use of these meds or their dosages to use them at this stage. Merrilyn, what can we do to put our collective heads together on this problem ? any suggestions would be great ! :)

Well I hate to say it, but I think I have found the source of lack in appetite and some of the symptoms I described earlier. When I got home from work tonight, upon inspection of the tank I noticed some white poo which I quickly syphoned, this now leads me to the conclusion that I also have a problem with Heximeta :cry: which is very disheartening as I have been supplying 30% daily water changes, qaulity varied diet and a spick n span tank. I know that this has happened through my own doing some how, as all fish when I got them where eating very well and always very active and hungry with good solid short dark poo's. The only thing I can put it down to is the PH stability probs I had a few weeks back when my PH dropped pretty low. Apart from this (stress) I can't think of anything else that would bring on Hex. :( The only other thing that could be a culprit is the Prazi treatment as some fish where a lilttle less hungry during the treatment period, but I doubt it as many people have used Prazi with no probs.


I have a very good vet who I have dealt with in the past with Hex problems, so I have no problems in getting the Metro if needed. I will also ask him his advice on the fluke problem, which by the way the fish seem to be flicking alot less tonight. Anyway I feel the white poo situation is a more pressing issue at this stage, so best I adress that first. I'm slowly raising the temp to 33-34c in the tank and will observe over the next 2-3 days, if no improvment I will do a course of Metro treatment. I'm kicking myself about the white poo as I really have tried my hardest to give them the best care I can, except for my PH problem ... live and learn :(

Once again sorry for the long winded post and thanks to every one for their input, it's most appreciated :)

Cheers,

Dee :)

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi Dee,

Believe me I know exactly how you feel and I hope this little insight makes you feel a bit better. I was sick and tired of dealing with niggly little problems and not being able to get rid of them so I eventually bit the bullet and took one of each strain, 7 of them, to the vet for necropsy. It broke my heart and the wallet as it was a grands worth of fish but for the sake of 80 odd other Discus I wanted a clean fish room and the problems gone. In hindsight it was absolutely the right thing to do and I also believe, as I want to breed and sell my fish, the responsible thing to do. My fish are now healthy, eating and growing very well and I am happy in the knowledge that any fish I part with are as clean as I can possibly make them.

I am not going to post too much detail here on my particular case as we live in a very litigious world but I think it wise for us all these days to consider any fish we buy as infected in one way or another, at least this way we are on a constant look out for signs of potential problems. As many of you know where I purchased the majority of my fish I would hasten to add that my problems did NOT come from overseas, it was far more local than that.

Merrilyn is right, we should put our heads together. I have recently been speaking with a number of people who have a lifetime of experience in keeping and breeding Discus and they all have similar comments, they are very, very worried about the future of Discus in Australia and it is time something was done to protect the quality and health of our stock.
MAC

[Merrilyn]

Okay, give me suggestions here guys. What form would you like this to take. How about a survey type thing with questions like how did you notice yur fish were affected, what did you use to treat the problem, how successful was it etc etc. Tell me what you think should be included, and I'll set it up.

Maybe we can then present our findings to some of the recognised fish vets for their opinion.

[ctvu]

. I'm slowly raising the temp to 33-34c in the tank and will observe over the next 2-3 days, if no improvment I will do a course of Metro treatment. I'm kicking myself about the white poo as I really have tried my hardest to give them the best care I can, except for my PH problem ... live and learn :(

Dee :)

Hi Dee

Been there and done that !! Dee, I know how exactly stressed you are now. As you said live and learn
If I were you I’d dose the Metro straight away, raising the temp won’t cure the Hex, pls don’t wait for the next 2-3 days, the sooner the better plus the Metro is very good medication for Hex and would not harm your Bio, it saved my fish in the past. About the dose I believe you already know.
All the best and wishing your fish will get better like mine.

ctvu

[mistakes r crucial]

Merrilyn,

A complete list of diseases together with recommended treatments all in the one place would be a great help to many people on the forum. There are places on the net where you can find them but I've not come across anything dedicated to our best mate apart from another very good but international forum.

I also think a discussion and peoples opinions about what is happening in the Discus industry in general would be very interesting. What people's opinions are regarding quarantine laws and if they think they go far enough, do we face a real challenge not using specialist Discus quarantine rooms? Also the use of Chloramphenical in Asia and the affects it can have on imported fish.
MAC

[chris]

Agreed with what Mac says.
Disease
symptoms
cure

Maybe
Something like Ben
Has started
A thread with all facts

[Dee]

Hi All,

Thanks to all for their input, I appreciate it.

Merrilyn,

Maybe you could create a sticky/thread for each ailment and it's relative suggested treatment. If there is a seperate sticky/thread for each disease, members can post their ideas, progress and out comes within the related topic. Might be easier to spread the info out over individual stickys, as opposed to listing it all in one sticky. That would be a great addition to the "illness and medications" section on the forum.

ctvu,

Thanks for the info, by raising the temp and waiting a little while before treating I was hoping to raise their metabolism and indentify which discus had the white poo. I have 13 Discus in the tank so it's tricky to know who exactly has the white poo. I'm not overly stressing at this stage, it's just that work is killer at the moment and doing a full 3 x daily treatment of metro will be tricky for three or more days. I am determined to nip this in the bud, so will have to make time to do it. Luckily I live near work and can duck out for an hour to WC and dose when needed. Once again thanks for the post.

MAC,

Intresting what you have said about imported Discus and disease. My personal experience with my fish are that they have been the healtiest, hungriest and most active discus I have owned to date. My problems have IMO arisen from my inexperience in discus husbandry and providing stable water conditions (PH especially) ... as hard as I have tried. The fluke problem would have been from the previous fish I had in the tank, which where all close to adults and would not have been as effected as the juvi's by them. As for the Hex that could of been triggerd from when I moved the fish in to the new tank or the unstable water conditions. Even though I was as gentle as I could be and matched tank specs exactly, they still seemed stressed by the move for a day or so ... not long after that I hit them with the prazi which again seemed to stress them a little. I just want to get them all back to the health they arrived in. It has been around a week that the effected fish have been off their food now and I have had the fish for 2 months.

What is Chloramphenical and what is it used for ?

Well there's yet another long winded post from me :roll: thanks to all for taking the time to post their reply's. :)

Cheers,

Dee :)

PS- wish there was a spell check when posting reply's :oops:

[mistakes r crucial]

Chloramphenical is an anti biotic that has been outlawed in many western countries for a long time due to it being a suspected carcenogenic among other things. It is used predominantly in Asia/China to treat fish and from what I have been told and read it does not kill the bacteria/parasites, it merely stops them from growing, progressing so that by the time you receive your fish the drug has been diluted 3 or 4 times by different tank water ie exporter, importer, shop, your tanks. Therefore the bugs aren't really a problem until the fish is well and truly yours.

Chloramphenical can cause severe toxic effects in humans, including hypo-aplastic anemia, which is usually irreversible and fatal.

Have a read Dee and then let me know if you are prepared to eat imported prawns on a regular basis lol!
MAC

[sunshinediscus]

Hi Dee,

Best success i have found controlling flukes is with triclorfon, but the med must be used at 25c temp. Most discus keepers treat them at the normal 28/30c , a temp at which the med is much less affective and more toxic. Many people report skittishness but at 25c all the negatives are greatly reduced. Don't bother with praziquantel for flukes, imo it is worse than useless for fluke control. Many companies who sell triclorfon recomend a dose of 100mg per 200 liters of water but i use Dieter Untergasser's dose of 100mg per 125liters. Many fish like bristlenose and tetra's will die if you use this med on them but it is safe to use on discus.

Gill flukes imo are quite often a causative stress in Flagellette infections, after you have controlled the fluke infection raise the temp to 33/35c and deal with them. Heat by itself WILL kill the infection but in severe cases metro will assist. Contrary to what people say most antibiotics do NOT kill bacteria, they actually stop bacteria from multerplying and the immune system will then be able to control them. This is called static antibiotics. There are some antibiotics that do kill bacteria outright but that is not usual. they are called cidal antibiotics. Keep up with the treatment until there are no more white feces.

HTH

Rod

[Merrilyn]

Well gentlemen, Rod and Mac, now you know what I'm going to ask here don't you. Will you now give me a step by step guide to recognition and treatment of gill flukes and hexemita. The way you treat these problems in your fish room.

Time we got serious about these diseases that are causing us so many problems.

[Dee]

Hi All,

Rod and MAC, thank you VERY much for the information. I saw my vet this morning and have the required amount of Metro for a full treatment. I have 3 questions ...

1. Where do I get Trichlorofon from ? Vet / Chemist or LFS ?
2. Does Trichloroforn effect the Bio Filter ?
3. Should I dose with Metro or Trichlorofon 1st ? at this stage I just want to get the little guys effected eating again, they havn't eaten for about a week now. I currently have the tank sitting at 33c.

Rod, I received my copy Untergasser's Discus Health this morning and have read the chapter about Trichlorofon and understand the temp needed , duration and dosage of treatment.

I thought I would treat with Metro at 33c first, then do a week of daily 30%WC's and slowly drop the temp to 25c and do a course of Trichlorofon to hopefully get the fluke population down.

Once again, I REALLY appreciate everyone's input and advice. This forum and it's member's have been a god send ! so a big THANKS is in order :)

MAC, think I will pass on those imported prawns ... heavy stuff :shock: :lol:


Cheers,

Dee :)

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi Merrilyn,

I've heard you say many times that Discus are tough and I totally agree, they are, so I think the first to do is not panic if you come across a suspected problem.

I spend a little time to look closely at my fish most days and just look for any signs of stress or problems in the tanks. An absolute no, no and the advice I have always been given is not to suspect a problem and immediately start throwing meds in the tank. You should be positive about what you are treating, seek advice if you're not sure and then treat the problem. If I can avoid using meds at all, I will, heat and salt can help many minor problems and I think they should be the first line of attack in many cases.

Gill Flukes are becoming a real issue for many of us because they are increasingly difficult to get rid of. I totally agree with Rod, Prazi is next door to useless these days, it simply won't move them in many instances.

The two main signs I look for are breathing from one gill and flashing, scraping themselves on something in the tank such as air tubing or filter sponges. They will move up to the object quite slowly and then whip past it and scrape their gills on whatever they've chosen to try and get rid of the irritation. If its a bad infestation their breathing makes is very obvious, one gill will be quite tightly closed and the other will be panting and wide open. I've found they breath very hard if they have a bad case of flukes.

As for treatments I think we have limited options left at the moment. Trichlorofon has worked for me and hopefully it will continue to do so for all of us. Trichlorofon is available in a couple of retail products that I know of, Para Ex by Wardleys is one and Paracide is another but not sure who makes that one. Wardleys is my choice but maybe Rod can offer some other alternatives. I have found Sterazin to be about as useful as Prazi even after double dosing for days on end, it's very expensive and simply didn't work for me at all, it seemed to initially but they were back pretty quickly.

The dosage is plainly written on the Para Ex bottle and is 2mg per litre, however, on the advice of my vet recently I dosed at 3mg per litre but I most definitely do not recommend this without the advice of a professional. Rod has already mentioned the temperature that this medication performs well at, 25c. I also take all sponge filters out of the tanks (I run a sump for main filtration) when dealing with parasites, the eggs can survive in the sponges for quite a while and reinfest your tanks so I place them outside in the sun for a few days which kills anything and everything.

I run my growouts on a 3500 litre sumped system and at the time could not get my temp down below 26c, this could be why I had the side affects of this drug. It made them skittish and quite aggressive towards one another, if this happens I would suggest to simply take it very steady around the tanks, do your chores slowly and don't let strangers in your room.

I was advised to redose after 20 days which is different to the opinions of some I've spoken to but it worked for me. Trichlorofon is very injurious to humans and can be absorbed via the skin so make sure you do not inhale the dust and I would recommend wearing gloves. To administer the drug I simply place the required amount of tablets in a largish disposable container and half fill with tank water and give them a stir, it seems to disolve easily.

Hexamita is an internal flagellate protozoan and a nasty piece of work. Some of the first signs of this problem are fish going off their food, becoming a bit reclusive and white feces. I have found that fish with Hex will very often pick at food but then invariably spit it out. They become sluggish, lose their bellies and if left unchecked will have that pinched look around the eyes and forehead, ultimately Hex will kill your fish if not treated.

As Rod mentioned the first line of defence is heat, up to 35c for a week but if this is not possible or the problem has got out of hand I use Metrodinazole the same as the majority of us. The dosage I used recently(advised to use) was 8mg per litre every 3rd day for 3 treatments which is far more than normal but this was after having the necropsy on my fish so again, seek professional advise if you want to use it outside the realms of the norm. You can change water between each treatment and Metro won't screw up your bio.

To admininister Metro I take a lady's panty hose (thank God for teenage daughters) and cut them about 12-15 inches above the foot. Crush the tablets in to a fine powder, I did 1300 tablets over 9 days so get yourself a good mortar and pestle, put them in the panty hose and tie a loose knot above the medication. I then place it in my sump, tied to something convenient and make sure its in a place where there is a very good water flow. By doing it this way you will find that the residue (little white bits) will stay in the panty hose and not fowl up your tanks. On one of my systems I got impatient and stirred it all around in the sump instead of just leaving it there and the next day the fish needed fog lights, an algal bloom from the sugar based tablets which just causes more work so be patient.

After treatment it can take a few days up to a week for the fish to regain their appetite. I got mine started on a bit of live food, brine shrimp only as I have made a rule for my room, no more black worms from unknown sources. Once I got them started I fed them frozen blood worms and a couple of days later threw large amounts of BH at them to start to regain some health and size.

Hope this helps guys, Capillaria is another silent killer which is becoming more and more of a problem so perhaps we can put something together on that too between us all.
MAC

[sunshinediscus]

When i purchase new discus all i do is 6.5 ph , a little salt and 30c. I never treat with strong meds unless there is a need to. The salt is to prevent a possible infection on the fins, it is normal for the fins to have some damage from the shipping procedures.

Otherwise my treatment for flukes is as outligned above. One thing you should realize about flukes is they are almost immpossible to eradicate. My guess is 99.9% of hatcheries around the world have flukes in them but they are controllable once you have a handle on things. The eggs are impervious to all meds that i am aware of and even redoseing several times after the initial treatment to kill the hatched flukes is not entirely successfull. The only way i know of to have a chance of fluke free fish is to artificially raise them from babies and never to mix them in with other fish. But this not mean that you will constantly battle flukes, most of my discus, and i have many hundreds at any one time, have never been treated in any way with fluke meds. If there is a fluke problem then not only will you need to look at treating but also how you are keeping them. Stressful situations, like Dee's problem seems to have originated from, is what allows the flukes to multiply and become a problem.

As for flagelletts, again this is a disease that we cannot eradicate from our tanks but is completely controllable. Normally flagellette infections occur along with other problems like stress or another infection as a precursor. MAC's description of the symptoms are very good, the trick is to be able to recognize the symptoms early enough (ie before the mucousy feces appear) and to get that heat up. To those who are new to discus or never seen flagellette infections it can be very difficult to see early signs and the fish will be in a more advanced state of infection and metro is the way to go then. I treat at 5ppm every day along with 33/35c, and treatment is continued until the feces are dark and short. It is safe to treat at 10 ppm i have heard but i have never had to use that much to get success. Also some people treat at 10ppm 3 times a day until cured, the idea behind this is metro is oxidized in the water within that time and the fish is going without treatment for most of the day. Never tried it myself but can see some logic to it and perhaps i would try it in severe cases.

HTH

[ctvu]

Thanks a lot for very helpful information, MAC and Rod. It is worth reading.

ctvu

[mistakes r crucial]

Hey Rod,

You mentioned that we cannot totally erradicate Hex from our tanks, sorry for the nearly week delay but I have just re read your post, why can't we get rid of them completely? Metro is a cidal anti biotic so theoretically we should be able to kill the bug completely, am I missing something here?

I've also been told in the past that once our fish have Capillaria we've got it forever but I can't understand that either as Levamisole is also a cidal anti biotic.

I wonder why drugs such as the Tetra group (cycline, triple sulphur etc) and Chloramphenical were ever developed in the first place if all they do is basically suspend the probelm as opposed to getting rid of it, got me stuffed! I'm sure the manufacturers of these drugs have millions of reasons why they should be used and each one would be gold.
MAC

[Dee]

Hi All,

I have finally finished my metro treatment and it seems there is no more white poo and a couple of the effected fish have regained eating. I treated for five days straight at 33c. After the 5 day treatment I left the temp at 33c with daily 30% WC for 7 or so days. I will start to slowly lower the temp to 25c for the Trichlorphon treatment, which I will do next Wed/Thurs and post the results after treatment.

I will treat Trichlorphon @ .8 ppm/L at a temp of 25c, as stated by Rod Lewis in a earlier post in this thread and as listed in the "Discus Health" book by Untergasser.

A question for MAC ... I got the Wardley's Para Ex that you mentioned in your earlier post. Each tablet contains 20mg Trichlorphon and the bottle says 1 tablet per 40L, making treatment .5pmm/L. Do I have the same product you used with success ? You said in your earlier post the bottle of Wardley's Para Ex recommended a dose of 2ppm, just wondering if I have the same stuff. The Para Ex I got comes in a small white medicine bottle with black writing and 20x20mg tabs per bottle.

I have tried to find out as much info as I can about Trichlorphon, but I still have two questions and thought I'd ask if anyone knew the answers ?

1. Is Trichlorphon, Trichlorfon and Trichlorophon the same thing ? From what info I could dig up they seem to be ... just thought some one may be able to confirm it ?

2. Does any one know the effects of Trichlorphon on the bio filter ? The guy at the LFS where I got the Para Ex said it will knock it back by about 10% and to go easy on feeding while treating. I ask because it would make sense to treat the filters too, I could very well be wrong ... any thoughts ?

I would like to thank everyone on the forum for their advice ... particully Rod Lewis and MAC for outlining their treatments with Metro for Hex and Trichlorphon for flukes.

Cheers,

Dee. :)

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi Dee,

You do have the same med as I used and you're right and I was wrong, the maths was obviously pretty bad that day, it is .5mg/ltr on the bottle or one 20mg tablet per 40 litres. I've just gone back through the report from the vet and it was definitely 3mg/ltr that I used which now seems excessive. I would stick to what Untergasser and Rod suggest for sure.

After using Trichlorofon I noticed nitrite in the system for a few days so I think it probably does knock the bio around a bit. Hope it all works out for you Dee.
MAC

[Dee]

G'day MAC,

Thank you very much for the reply mate, most appreciated. I just wanted to make sure I was using the right product, which you had success with ... I in no way ment to say your math was off :oops: I will treat at .8ppm once I get the temp down to 25c. Any thoughts on whether I should remove the bio filter during treatment ? the nitrite spike worries me a little, but on the flip side the guy at my LFS stated its best to treat the filters aswell ... so I guess I will treat with the bio filters in place and keep an eye on the nitrites.

Once again MAC, thanks for taking the time to share the info regarding trichlorphon. I will post the out come after treatment and let you guys know the results for future reference. Fingers crossed ... wish me luck :)

Cheers,

Dee :)

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi Dee,

lol, no problem about the math mate, it was incorrect.

As far as the filter is concerned I don't think I would be leaving them without one. I didn't exactly get a nitrite spike, it went to .25 so although not desirable it wasn't a major disaster. I just gave the tanks a real good wipe down and 80% water change after treatment and continued to change water daily for a few days.

I also take the sponge filters out and dry them in the sun for a few days, my vet told me and I think Rod mentioned that meds don't kill the eggs and they can easily get caught in the sponges and reinfest your fish so if you use them sling 'em outside for a while.

Best of luck Dee,
MAC

[Dee]

Hi MAC,

Thanks for the nitrite info, I'll grab a fresh nitrite test kit before treatment and moniter levels. Will post results later in the week after 1st treatment. Thanks for everything mate. :)

Cheers,

Dee :)