Discus disaster - please help

[Dave76]

Hi all

Just got home from work to a not very happy site.

One dead panda cory, One dead blue diamond, a blue turq sitting in my overflow barely clinging to life and two other discus lying sideways in the plants.

The other four discus in the tank are freaking out swimming all over the place. Tetras & other cories etc seem fine.

Water param
PH - 6.58 - up a bit from normal
Amm - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - less than 5

I'm draining water as I type (240gal tank takes a while) going to do a 50% water change.

Any thoughts on what else I should be adding to the water.

Thanks in advance all

Dave

[Dave76]

Just isolated the blue turq into a bucket floating in the tank - I don't hold much hope for him - he is looking very sickly - one eye cloudy, missing a lot of slime coat - I am thinking of putting him down.

Meds I have on hand

Aquasonic Bio-Tet - Tetracycline Tablets
Aquasonic Paragone
Melafix
Pimafix
Aquamaster Rapid White Spot Remedy - is Formaldehyde & Mal Green
Aquachem Phenoxine - is Phenoxythanol, formaldehyde, Brill green, Mal Green
Aquachem Parasol - is formaldehyde, trichlorfon, meth blue
250mg Amoxxcyllin
500mg Amoxil

Dave

[Merrilyn]

Gee Dave, every fishkeepers worst nightmare.

There has got to be some external factor. Like flyspray, paint fumes, something on the hands or net or brushes used in the tank recently.

Have you added any new driftwood or new plants or gravel. Added anything else to the tank? like fertilizer or snail rid - anything like that?

Don't do anything other than a waterchange at the moment. It is usually water issue in cases like this.

I'd be inclined to do an 80% water change, to remove more of the toxins from the tank. Give the guy in the bucket a bit longer. They are pretty tough fish.

[Dave76]

Thanks for the reply Ladyred

80% it is then :) Do you think a bit of salt would be worthwhile ?

Did my usual 40% change on Saturday morning, added declor, ferts & bicarb soda as per usual - they seemed a bit skittish yesterday - didn't think much of it - bad mistake on my part I guess.

Nothing out of the ordinary in or around the tank...just thinking tho - yesterday I swapped out a pair who were keen to breed to a breeding tank with another pair who weren't interested going into my main tank (the one with the problem....)

I'm also setting up a 10 gal as well atm if required.

Will keep you informed.

Dave

[Merrilyn]

Gee good luck Dave. A small amount of salt won't hurt, but don't add the usual ferts and carb soda and stuff. Just clean water with dechlor for the moment.

[Dave76]

Yep that's what I had planned - about 60% drained atm - man big tanks suck sometimes ;)

Appreciate the support Merrilyn

Dave

[Merrilyn]

We're always here for you mate.

[Dave76]

Well 80% water change completed - along with 80% bottle of penfolds....soon to be 100%.....

Lost one more fish during water change - remainder are all hiding in the corner :(

Added 15 tablespoons of salt to the water & still got blue turq floating in bucket - hopefully he'll pull through although I'm not optomistic.

Will post again later tonight or in the morning.

Dave

[Merrilyn]

Hang in there Dave.

[Merrilyn]

Any progress this morning Dave?

Been thinking of you mate.

[Dave76]

Thanks Merrilyn

No more deaths overnight - the blue turq is holding in there so I've left him floating.

My other BD is just sitting in the plants nose down - so not too sure on him. The remainder are swimming around a little bit so we'll see how things go.

Dave

[ctvu]

Hi Dave

Sorry for your loss and you got my prayer for the rest.

ctvu

[Dave76]

Thanks a lot ctvu

Much appreciated. The hardest thing at the moment is is having to wait until I get home tonight to check on them all again - 8 hours away :(

The thing that really has me stumped is it is pretty much only the discus that were effected - I've got tank born panda cories less than 1cm in length swimming around happy as Larry and 6" discus close to death - you'd think that the baby pandas would be the first the go....and I found another batch of panda eggs stashed in my javamoss this morning as well - guess they liked the big water change last night....

Dave

[ctvu]

Hi Dave

Looks like you have done every thing . Would you think we'd better off put the sick one in QT tank? That way we can diagnose the sick one better. HTH

ctvu

[Trebs]

Seems too fast for an outbreak of disease? That's 3 in the space of a few days (Del and Jim) that are all quite similar. Would expect it to be poisoning from tap water or an external source. Can't see how they could be related - Sydney and Perth. Very strange and worrying indeed.

[Merrilyn]

Wonder if they have started adding chloramine to our water due to the drought.

I think we should all be investing in some extra test kits. Three in the space of a week is just too much of a coincidence.

In the meantime, perhaps check if your chlorine remover does chloramine too.

[Dave76]

Well just got home - as suspected my blue turq didn't survive :(

I use Safe or Prime for decloring - used prime last night - used safe mixed with distilled water on saturday i think for memory - been using it for a few weeks without any apparent problems.

The BD has a big white patch on his side - it isn't fungus - it almost looks like one of other fish have had a go at him. He can't stay upright - - I've move him to the 10 gal - 40% tank water - 60% new water. Any suggestions on what to add to the water ?

Other discus haven't eaten anything today but all look fine. All other fish in the tank seem fine - looks like I've got some new baby pandas today as well - some consolation I guess - altho not much....

And now just to really make my day - one of my breeding females is headstanding - other 7 fish in the same water system all appear fine. Exactly the same water used in change on Saturday as well. Her & her mate laid after the water change and wrigglers hatched today as well :( Any thoughts on this one?

My other tank system containing Malawi & Tangs are all fine - have a number holding eggs atm - again all with same water.

Dave

[Merrilyn]

It sounds bacterial, but it really should be looked at by a vet now, and skin scrapings taken and examined.

If you can't get to a vet then try tetracycline for the fish in the quarantine tank, and see if you get any results.

Head standing could be a swim bladder disorder, or simply a case of gas caused by rotten food. If she's not right tomorrow, she should be treated with tetracycline too, but not in the same quarantine tank as the other fish..

[CKY]

Treat as bacterial. Wow what a bummer, sorry to hear. I wonder if it was to do with the Perth H2O supply at the time or some other toxin introduced in the water.Could be a flavobacterium-but unlikely. It more sounds like fish with the white patch has been attacked when he/she was weak and has secondary infection. Call up your water supplier and see if there was repairs in your area or something added to your water. I would gladly disect the fish for you in the lab at Uni, if you lived in Melbourne, but would recommend you bring an effected fish to your vet and sacrifice it to see if there is a problem, that is providing you have enough fish left that are at risk. Without seeing what it is it would be near impossible to make a diagnosis over the internet. Tetracyline sounds like a good bet.

Out of interest are any of you guys phobic of injecting your fish with a broad spectrum antibiotic? It is possible but should only really be done by an experienced person, such as a fish doctor/aquaculturist or vet. I have found this to work miracles with higher end fish that are worth the extra effort and learnt the technique from a well known Biologist/Ichthyopathologist(Fish disease specialist) from Belgium.

[Merrilyn]

I would love to learn how to inject a fish safely. Having dealt with farm animals, I'm pretty competent with a syringe. Is there a way to learn.

[Dave76]

Hi all

The BD gave up the fight overnight :(

I've spoken to the Water Corp over here this morning - apparently no changes to water specs / repairs etc (so they say anyway) - we have had a lot of rain recently - wondering whether or not that may have had an effect ? I live in the hills suburbs so our water is about 90% dam water / 10% ground water - so low ph & soft.

Only possible thoughts I have on what happened - I'm still stumped on why only some Discus were effected - other Discus seem fine along with everything else in the tank.

1. Something nasty in water
2. Used too much declor (or maybe not enough ?) when adding new water
3. Used too much fertiliser
4. Added too much bicarb

altho I use the same amounts every water change - maybe something slightly different in the water caused some sort of imbalance / reaction....

I would be keen to learn about the injecting method etc - all of the vets I've spoken to locally have been 'well we don't deal with fish - go visit a pet store'.

Re the tetracycline for the head stnader - should I treat the whole system (4 x 29gal + trickle filter) each with a pair of fish in them - or separate the fish in question and just treat her ?

Thanks all for the help & support.

Regards

Dave

[ctvu]

Hi Dave

Sorry for your BD.




Only possible thoughts I have on what happened - I'm still stumped on why only some Discus were effected - other Discus seem fine along with everything else in the tank.



That is the same thing that happened to my comm.. tank before, 2 out of 4 that I bought the same batch recently got fin rot, the rest is OK although some are smaller than them too but they did not get fin rot at all – touch wood !




2. Used too much declor (or maybe not enough ?) when adding new water



I usually put a bit more than recommend, I am too lazy to count how many drops and so on. I would not think that causes your problems




separate the fish in question and just treat her ?



I think that should be a good idea because Tetra would kill your Bio.

HTH

ctvu

[ml29]

Hello Dave

Do you live near South Perth, if so it could have been caused by your water change on Saturday. The water out of the mains was discoloured for a couple of days where I live since the burst water mains that caused traffic problems on Friday night.

Just a thought.

Regards

Marvin

[Dave76]

Hi Marvin

No I live in Kalamunda - nowhere near the problems in South Perth - I wonder if the problems there would be be related ????

Thanks for the info ctvu - I will isolate the head stnader and start treatment with tetracyline tonight when I get home.

Regards

Dave

[mtchye]

Hi Dave,

Tetracycline is probably not a great first go antibiotic as most of the common fishy bacteria have developed resistance to it.

The tri sulfa antibiotics work well for many of the external bacteriums which cause fin rot and body lesions, but are hell on filter bacteria as well. I'd separate affected fish and treat separately as the infections are probably secondary and should not affect the other healthy fish.

Set up a hospital tank, frequent water changes, and try the tri sulfas which should be available in most pet stores.

There is an article on resistance to tetracycline i think by a University in florida but the title of the paper escapes me at the moment. Might be worth doing a search as that particular university has many interesting aquaculture articles and if I remember correctly one that addresses common treatments and diseases.

[Dave76]

Hi Vincent

Thanks for the info. For anyone interested here ia a link on the topic

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA084

Went to separate the fish last night to now empty Q tank - but while cleaning / bleaching etc - coughed/sneezed and dropped tank - luckily outside - so off to buy a new Q tank today - will grab some tri sulfa as well & let you know how I go.

Regards

Dave

[ctvu]

Hi Dave

All the best, and keep us informed.

ctvu

[anti-generic]

sorry to hear your lost.
i've just gone through the same thing.
i feel for u man.

best of luck for the future


Eric

[Dave76]

Thanks Eric & Ctvu

Well I went to 2 shops and neither had trisulfer - so have isolated this morning and added Aquasonic tetracycline as directed - 1 tablet per 20 litres.

The colouration of the discus is almost back to normal, headstanding isn't as pronouced - about 60deg instead of 90deg & she is eating sera flora, colorbits & blackworms.

As tetracycline kills the filter bacteria as well - how often & how much water should I change and do I redose at full rate - or only for the water volume that I've replaced ?

Thanks all

Dave

[Merrilyn]

Do a 75% water change daily and re-dose at the full dose rate.

[Dave76]

Wow thanks for the speedy reply Merrilyn - much appreciated.

btw - when do you find time to maintain your own tanks - and do you ever sleep ????? ;)

Thanks again for all your help.

btw - on a slightly happier note I found 2 fry attached to dad from the recent spawn of the sick RR in question & the BT I paired her up with - see http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2696&highlight=
will try and get some pics of dad & fry tomorrow.

Regards

Dave

[ctvu]

Hi Dave

glad to hear it is getting better. Yes I'd follow LR's advice full redose daily, and don't forget the temp I'd say 30-32 C.
HTH


ctvu

[Dave76]

Hi all

Thought I would post an update. Been tetracyclineing since Sunday morning - changing about 75-80% water daily & redosing - temp is at 30deg.

Fishes colour has returned
Pelvic fins are no longer clamped to body
The small whait pimply things on her sides have almost ompletely gone - only a couple on each side.
Her appetite is down a bit - and the fussy girl will only eat blackworms now - serves my right for spoiling her I guess.

Here are a couple of pics showing headstanding angle - pics look shocking due to yellow tank water and crappy room lighting.

How long do you thing I should keep dosing the tetracycline for - and should I try anything else afterwards ?

Can someone please move this post out of emergency room now as well - emergency has passed.

Thanks all

Dave

[Merrilyn]

Hmmmm I would have liked to see some more improvement by now. We may have a bacteria that is resistant to tetracycline.

Continue treating for the full 5 days.

If no further improvement, move onto tri sulfa. But give her a week's rest between treatments.

[ctvu]

Hi Dave

Very glad to hear some improvement.

As you would see the improvement on day 2 or 3 but as per LR and my experience it should be 5 day dose fully.

In regards to being fussy food, don't worry, the same as mine, they ate only BW, and it took 2-3 weeks to recover completely, atm they eat every thing and much more than before as you can see my post under fin rots.
HTH

ctvu

[tandyworld]

yep :)

[Dave76]

Hi all

Well the 5 day treatment is up. 2 days of clean water with a small amount of salt added. 70-80% daily changes

One minute she is swimming around fine, the next it is back to headstanding - it is bizarre.

She is still eating blackworms like they are going out of fashion & is picking at bloodworms again - but not finding a lot of poop to suck up.

Did a bit of looking around & found this article -
http://article.dphnet.com/cat-02/swimblader.shtml

Was thinking of perhaps trying an internal worm treatment - any recommendations on what to use - I have some Fenbendazole, which is a cattle dewormer - 25g/l fenbendazole, or should I get my hands on a dog/cat dewormer perhaps ?

Thanks

Dave

[Dave76]

Just a quick update

I soaked some blackworms in a solution of prazi on Monday morning and fed to her & then added dose to the tank as well.

This morning she has a white thing about 5cm long hanging out of her anus - I suspect it may be a tapeworm. I'm hoping she passes it completely by tonight so I can have a closer look at it.

She still has a few white pimply things on her body & is still headstanding - more in the morning than the evenings - in the evenings when you first enter the room she is headstanding, but when you approach she swims more upright - expecting food I guess......

Any other suggestions on things to try appreciated.

Dave

[mtchye]

Hi Dave,

If you are getting results with Prazi I would dose the whole tank with it. This will alleviate any fluke and tapeworm problems for her to make a fuller recovery. Perhaps she has a bad case of intestinal blockage from worm infestation? This may cause the buoyancy problems you describe.

Prazi will treat tapeworms, another useful worm treatment for roundworms (camallanus and capillaria species) is levamisole. You can get it at rural supply stores here in Perth as Big L pig and poultry wormer, dose at 1ml / 7 litres.

I am surprised how many discus keepers treat for tapeworm and hexamita regularly but totally ignore the nematode parasites. Prazi will only kill cestodes and trematodes and nematodal parasites are fairly common in imported fish from Asia. In addition levamisole is a very specific and harmless treatment which is very effective.

I'd give it a go, its cheap too.

Good luck
Vincent

[mtchye]

As another adjunct if I remember correctly fenbendazole is not effective dosed into the water column whereas levamisole is.

[Dave76]

Thanks for the info Vincent

Will try and track some down today.

Regards

Dave