Sand/Gravel

[kazkirk]

I was reading one of the other topics and I saw pool filter sand in a planted tank (looks AWESOME!) My question is, is the entire depth of it the filter sand and the plants are directly in that, or is there some other medium lurking beneath that pretty white layer. Also, how deep should it be
(exuse the lack of question marks, my keyboard is on its way out)
Thanks!
karen

[Merrilyn]

Hi Karen, welcome to the forum.

Pool filter sand is wonderful in tanks. Plants seem to do very well in just the sand alone. You can keep the depth to a minimum at the front, and build it up to say 7 or 8 cms. at the back to hold the plants.

It's very easy to clean, and doesn't trap food particles.

[kazkirk]

Thanks! thats sounds great, plus its cheap :)

[duck]

Keep in mind that you have to add some fert to the substrate.

[kazkirk]

Argh! The only pool filter stuff they had was DE. Im assuming this is waaay too fine for a sand bed. On the other hand, can I put some de in a baggy and stick it in my filter to polish water every now and then. (I would stick it in my aquaclear filter basket)

[Merrilyn]

Not a good idea Kaz. DE is so fine it needs a paper filter. No fabric filter will be fine enough, and you will have clouds of white dust through your tank. It's really only used for water polishing in an aquarium. It clogs too quickly to be used in standard filter.

Try going to one of the large hardware chains and ask for Children's Playground Sand. That should be fine, almost white, and best of all, non toxic. Make sure you get one without coral sand because that will bump up your hardness.

[kazkirk]

Thats what I mean, every now and then and in a baggy in my filter basket.

They had playsand but it definitly was no where near white, it was a strong shade of yellow! Tomorrow Im going to try the pool store (I dont know where any are so this will be an adventure!)

[spencer]

Hi all,
Im interested in this pool sand, is it the type they use in pool filters?
Also,would you need to put a layer of something else underneath for the plants?
If so any suggestions
oh, and what is DE?
Cheers Max

[Sutto]

DE = Diatomaceous Earth. They require special pumps and Filters because it is so fine ;)

And yes it is :D Ive got some Brown :| Stuff in my tank :D

HTH,
-Sutto

[Merrilyn]

Spencer, pool filter sand is the sand we use. It's a nice creamy white colour, dead cheap and looks terrific.

[kazkirk]

Im going to the pool store after lunch, how much sand (in lbs) would I need for a 6ft by 2ft planted tank! Any ideas (enter question mark here!)

Thanks!
I know, I just use and abuse your brains :)

[Merrilyn]

Well that certainly is making me use my brains Kaz.

I think the bags I bought were 10 kgs or roughly 20 lbs each. I used about two and a half of them for my 5 foot display tank, so I think you are going to need three bags, or about 60 lbs.

Get them to lay the bags out side by side, to give you a better idea of the coverage it is going to give you.

[Proteus]

You must be sure that the pool filter sand is quartz based (therefore inert)

other than that, I dont use ferts, and my plants are going great guns...

[kazkirk]

argh! 4 pool stores and 2 hardware houses later and still no pretty white sand. It all looks like course yellow beach sand, just like the play sand that I didnt want. Oh what to do! what to do! I did pick up some tubing and nipples to make my diy co2 system though. And some stuff to make a prefilter (the tank comes with a trickle filter which Im going to modify so it doesnt make my co2 system worthless!) Which reminds me, let me make a post under equipment....

[kazkirk]

Ok, I have 1 bag, I brought it home to see if it grows on me. It quartz, but there is a thing on it saying "contains silica". Is this going to murder my swimmies!

[Merrilyn]

Nopies. Silica is totally inert. No problems there.

[kazkirk]

Now I know where all the white sand went.....

http://www.seasonalstores.com/ethical.html

:(

How am I supposed to get pretty white sand!

[kazkirk]

Here is the sand I have. I put it up against my white dog for comparison purposes. As you can see, its nowhere near white. My puppy even pulled a tongue at it in disgust (she wasnt supposed to be in the picture, I guess she just had something to say about the situation)

[Proteus]

you will find that once in the water, and with lighting above it will appear to be lighter.

FYI, you wouldnt really want pure white gravel as it would bounce way too much light back up from above

[kalebjarrod]

if your in the states what is the difference between eco-complete and the white sand?

[goldenpigeon]

nice doggies! :D

[sxyrollaboy]

Hey people...

I just not long got off the phone to "slippery little suckers" and well they didn't like the idea of using Pool filter sand at all!!! She said she has never heard of anyone using it and wouldn't recommend it at all.

She also mentioned a darker flooring is better for the discus... with their colours and all?

Is this true... ??? cuz man! i so wanted this sand stuff too! but this has really made me think!

Matt

[Merrilyn]

Everyone will have their different ideas. Michella probably doesn't like the look of it herself.

But I use it, and I know a lot of other folk who use it, with great success. The best part about it, there is nothing to alter your pH or hardness there. And if it is safe for human swimming pools, it is safe for our fish.

And BTW I do know someone who works for SLS who uses it in his own tanks. I guess it's just a matter of personal taste.

[Proteus]

All my tanks, Discus/Community etc use pool filter sand...

as per my PM to you Matt, best thing since sliced bread.

HOWEVER, there is a large proportion of the Discus keeping community that feel darker substrates are better, again, it is each to there own...

I mean Bare bottom, would not exactly be considered dark.

The advantage of pool filter sand (being quartz based) it is inert, and will always remain inert, it doesnt compact down like marine sands (due to density) so you dont get many, if any dead spots, and to vacm just hover over the top, if you get a few grains, just tip them back in.

[Proteus]

This may also help as well...


Being a geologist, I know quiet a bit of info about sands etc. Just some pointers to take into consideration:
1) If the sand is poorly sorted (large and small grains), You probs need two seives. One size is to get rid of the large stuff and the next size down is to keep the good stuff and throw away the finer stuff which would go through the second seive.
2) Black rocks (sedimentary or igneous) tend to have sulphur in various concentrations.
3) Steer away from rocks that are derived from granites. These tend to increase the CaCO3 due to plagioclase (the white stuff) having this stuff.
4) Try to get the sand from as far away from the source as possible as most of the soluble minerals would have disolved by then.
5) The best option is find a stream/creek that basically has nearly 100% quartz content in it. These are found generally near river mouths or on alluvial plains which generally pass through the suburbs anyway.
6) Get yourself a handlense or magnifying glass so that you can identify the percentage of quartz in a handsample. Over 80% quartz is good.
...hope this sorta helps. I didnt want to get too much involved.

Oh, forgot to mention that when using a handlense, determine the sphericity (roundness) of most the grains. Well rounded grains aint too good for porosity and permeability (circulation) within the substrate.


("...most washed river sand are a quartz based product here in OZ..."). Anywhere there is a hill, mountain or exposed bedrock with a creek or similar passing through it you will get more than quartz in your creek sand that it is eroded from . Also dependant factors influencing the outcome as to the type of sand in a creek is the mechanism of erosion experienced at the source (physical/ chemical and/or mechanical weathering). Without going into too much detail, it is true that the Australian geology exposed at the surface is generally older than most parts of the world and more weathered. We have the some of the oldest soils in the world which consist of aluminium rich laterites. Dependant on location then within Australia, you will find more quartz in a creek than others, with some creeks based entirley on quartz due to erosion probably of the soil profile, or other factors mentioned previuosly. For the sake of those in Sydney, a relatively good chance of finding good quartz beds is steer away from the hills and focus more on any creeks that cut through the plains and especially cut through previuosly deposited alluvium and old soil beds where no bedrock is exposed. Also, if the hills are composed of quartzite (sandstone) you have good bet of close to 100% quartz sands in creeks that flow away from them. Even a quick phone call to the geology department in any university will find more than helpful staff who will go out of their way to help you. Ask them where you can find quartz rich, well sorted creek beds or even the location of old sand dunes preserved as hills which will have a mix of soil and quartz. If you are after a particular look or colour of rock, sand...they can help you on that point to. It is the geologists responsiblity to know their local area and believe me, they know where to find the best sand and display rocks which will cost you only time and petrol and an outing with kids. For those of us in northern Australia, it is much more difficult as the creeks/rivers up here have fast flow rates, which means that pebbles are further deposited downstream than they are down south and weathered within the creeks reducing quartz percentages.


Just a pointer about sand raising pH. Sand is a general term used to describe the size of a weathered rock and generally also contains an accumulation of minerals that contain by nature an assortment of elements...Calcium, Iron, Sulphur, etc.. If you are certain that the sand is derived from the weathering of a quartzite bed further upstream then no chemical alteration of your water will take place. Silicon is relatively insoluble in water and it this element that makes up quartz alone. A simple handlense will show you if you have quartz or some other stuff you dont want. Quartz can be identified by the way it fractures. Geologists use this property in identifying quartz at it has no cleavage but breaks and leaves what we call a "conchoidal fracture":which looks like a broken beer bottle. If you see flat shiny surfaces it aint quartz even though it may look like it. This stuff may alter your water chemistry. If the grains are too rounded when you look at them, break them on a flat surface with a hammer and then have another look.

http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=934

http://www.discusforums.com/forum/files/dscn2449__medium_.jpg


Well, I couldnt resist....nice pic of sand. I was able to define well sorted and angular clasts of 90% at most quartz. I would side on 85% to be safe Judging by the iron staining on some grains, I would say the black stuff is basalt (iron and magnesium) with some independant grains of white coloured, rounded clasts of feldspars-plagioclase (calcium + potassium?). Its worth the note that the soluble minerals are rounded in this pic...makes me excited to see the difference There are some other unknowns which have have assorted colours and is probably just filling used by the company to dilute quartz content and thus save $$$ All in all, a relatively safe mix with minimal alteration of water chemistry should be enjoyed by this sample. Good porosity and permeability of water and nutrient flow should be enjoyed by this sand with minimal compaction due to the "locking" effect of angular grains in contact with adjacent grains. Hope this helps

[cody]

How do you go vacuming sand and how does sand go with heavy excertions id also like to use it on my new oscar tank but i wanted black sand anyone seen it before

[kalebjarrod]

pool filter sand stays WAY WAY cleaner than gravel

geuss it must be the finer particles, food can't get traped

as for gravel vacing it works awsome

and its that cheap you could change it every week if you need to (not that you would as that would be bad but you get the picture LOL)

[Davo]

The only question is do the plants thrive or just exist?

I am only saying this beacause if you look up any planted tank site I do not think that anyone actually uses pool sand. What I have read states that it compacts and is not god for plant growth.

Obviously you could add substrate ferts to it to aid the plants but I have not really seen anything on the net that recommends it.

Dave.

[kazkirk]

Ive had my sand in my tank for a month now and here is my opinion so far!

its *so much easier* to keep clean than gravel. Poop just sits on top, it doesnt get trapped underneath. When I vacuum, I vacuum up a thin layer of sand while Im at it, my python drains it into a bucket, which then overflows into my flowerbeds. THe sand I vacuumed stays in the bucket and the water flows out, then I just replace the sand from the bucket. its not more than 1/4 of a cup (in a 120 gallon tank) so I just return it every week or so when it gathers up in quantity.

As for the plants, I only have amazon swords, about 16 of them. They are in my opinion, doing very well. I have a dripper constantly replacing liquid fert. and I also used tabs in the sand. I trimmed them back fairly heavily when I put them in the tank, and now they are spurting out leaves left right and center.

[kalebjarrod]

it would not be my first choice in a planted tank with discus

it would be my first choice in a discus tank with plants

it all depends on your focus :wink:

[Merrilyn]

Well put Ryan 8-)

[spencer]

Its quite cheap as well as looking good
My local pool shop sells 25KG for $15

[Bad Inferno]

Stupid question but don't the discus suck up the sand when they are eating from the bottom ? ?

[kalebjarrod]

i thought they would to

but infact they don't, and they find it easier to get the smaller particles of food the bottom

[Bad Inferno]

I may change over my gravel to sand....Suck it out little by little get to bare bottom then put sand in.

[kalebjarrod]

it does look pretty tidy :wink:

[goldenpigeon]

ryan do u recon u could have a fairly well planted tank with the pool filter sand? not like dutch style but quite alot of plants?

[kalebjarrod]

reasonably good

with enough light and co2

root tabs and PMDD

yeah, you could have a pretty great one