Who wants a very nice bottle of Scotch and a dozen Roses?

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi all,

Last week I put up a post regarding our Albino's and the fact they were miles behind the other Discus in our grow out system. These fish have been driving us nuts for the last couple of months because even though I have some very experienced help/opinions up here when I need them no one can tell me what the problem is without sacrificing one at the vets. I will do that as a last resort but thought I would give the forum one last shot.

The main problem is if we don't fix these guys shortly they are going to be permanently stunted which would be a bit of a tradegy considering the standard of them, they are very nice fish. So, anyone that can give me a diagnosis and treatment to fix them gets one very nice bottle of scotch delivered to their door and if it's one of the ladies, a dozen red roses as well regardless of where you are.

Symptoms are plain and simple, won't eat much, will only touch live food in small amounts, aren't growing, virtually no belly but apart from that have colour and fins not clamped. They have all been treated over the last 10 weeks for flukes and worms with Prazi, Sterazin and Octazin for suspected flagellates. Not all at once I might add, over the 10 week period.

Rod suggested flagellates might be the first thing to look at so 3 days ago I split the 10 in to 2 groups of 5 and switched them off the system. I've treated one lot with a double dose of Sterazin and the second lot with Octazin, I won't really know the results of this for another week or so but no difference so far in any of them.

Here are some photos of them..

The water params are as follows:
Ph 6.8 : 6.9 and stable.
GH 5
KH 2 (sometimes less depending on council treatment)
Temp 28c -28.5c (stable)
W/C 50%-80% every other day.
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 5-10 depending on the day.

My apologies for the long post but I wouldn't have a bloody clue how to fixd these guys up.
MAC

[goldenpigeon]

ok here i go.
*god help me*
first r these guys in with any discus bigger than them? i know that you have treated for worms and all but it might be the case with them. are any other fish showing signs of stunted growth? who did you buy them off? try raising their tank to 31 degrees.

sorry bout the jumble of questions. i know i know how to fix it but i can remember. :cry:

[goldenpigeon]

also r they on the lean side? and if i can fix the promblem do i get the bottle of scotch? :D

[mistakes r crucial]

Junior,

They are on their own and from the same batch as all the rest from Singapore, no others have the same problem. We've had the temp up over 30c when treating with salt some time ago, no difference.
MAC

[mistakes r crucial]

How old are you Junior? That will be the deciding factor regarding the scotch lol!! I might have to send you the roses lmao!
MAC

[goldenpigeon]

no1 tell my age!!!! im over 18 ill leave it at that.
look i really hate to say this but i really think they must just be a bad batch :( i think you should just sacrifice 1 to the vet and find out the problem :(

i mean after all you have done and they havnt come good. and no other fish are affected BUT the ALBINO'S.

[leanne31]

In about 4 years you might be junior. Have you tried raising the temp to about 32 to increase metabolism it might make them more hungry maybe they're just gonna be small fish.

leanne

[goldenpigeon]

no they should atleast grow to about 12cm. his tank is over 30

[goldenpigeon]

whats you W/C reigeme like? maybe do some larger than normal changes for a while. also can you feed them live brine shrimp? they might like them. are they very intimidated by other fish?

[Dee]

Hi MAC,

I am in no way experienced with discus ailments (sp), but I had a very similar experience with 2 of my discus about a year ago. I would agree with Rod Lewis in that you may have a problem with flagellites (sp). I had the same symptoms you have described, for which I treated with Metro. If you decide to treat with Metro I would advise using the generic brand "metrogyl" in the 400mg tabs. Steer clear of liquid Metro for the reasons I posted in the Double Dosing Sterazin post. Here's a link to a URL I found very helpfull when I had my problems ...

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/spironucleus.php

The treatment that worked best for me was the 400mg/10G one listed in the URL link. I had treated at the lower dosage rate twice with no positive effect. I then treated at the 400mg/10g dosage and my fish where eating very well within a week. My fish had white poo which I dont think your's do, but my fish where only ever eating very small amounts of live food if any. This is only a suggestion, as I am not comfortable recommending medications etc for discus. If you decide to treat as per the URL keep the following in mind ...

1. Light out during treatment
2. Dose 3 times daily (every 8 hours) with 30% WC's

I hope this info helps, but please maybe get the opinions of more experienced discus keepers before trying this treatment. I found Metro to be very gentle on my my fish. One fish vet I spoke too about metro told me that metro in the higher doses can effect bio filter, I would tend to agree so keep up the water changes and remove bio filter for the duration of treatment. Anyway it worked for me ... good luck.

Cheers,

Dee :)

[Dee]

Forgot to ask what the active ingrediants in Octazin are ? If it does not contain Metro, it may not have effected the flagellites if that is what the problem is. They are beautifull albino's MAC, it would be a shame for them not too reach their full potential. Good luck with them.

Cheers,

Dee :)

[mistakes r crucial]

Junior,

From what I've seen there is no such thing as a bad batch from Roy Khoo, his fish are better quality than the vast majority of fish I've ever seen here in Australia. His reputation is first class and his fish prove why. It's more likely something I've done or haven't done due to lack of experience, but thanks for the input.
MAC

[Merrilyn]

MAC, I'm gonna give you a real old fashioned remedy. One that I haven't had to use for many years, but the last time I did, it worked wonders.

You need to find a friendly M.D. and get yourself a prescription of amoxycillin.

Once you get that, send me a PM and I'll give you the dose rate.

Hope it helps mate.

[Kaza]

Ladyred I wouldnt mind those dose rates, I have a similar problem with some blue diamonds which have just not grown. Everyone else in the tank is fine. I also have a packet of Amoxycillin sitting in front of me. So I wouldnt mine trying it.

[Dee]

Hi All,

Well I guess I was way off :oops: ... Merrilyn, what is amoxycillin and what is it used to treat ? I'm just intrested.

Cheers,

Dee :)

[Trebs]

For my 2 cents,

I've found Sterizin to be an ineffective treatment for gill flukes especially but I also don't put a lot of stock in it generally. May be worth looking at other meds.

I'd guess the genetic strength of albino white discus would generally be not as good as more common strains. Their genetic potential for growth may be limited. In this case regardless of environmental conditions they won't get very big.

[Merrilyn]

Amoxycillin is an antibiotic your doc will give you if you have a sore throat or an infection of some kind. A vet might also prescribe it if your dog or cat has an infection.

The idea behind using it, is that it is believed some spawns carry a low grade infection in their system. Not enough to make them really sick, just enough to stop them from reaching their full potential.

It was suggested to me by a long time friend who had been breeding discus from before I was even born. It worked on a spawn I had at the time, that was just not doing well. I would lose one fish maybe every two weeks, and some others would just stop eating, and look like they didn't want to live.

Five days after treatment, they all started looking better and were eating like little horses. No more losses, and they never looked back.

The dose I used was one 250 mg capsule in a standard three foot tank. Open the capsule and add to the tank once daily for 5 days, doing a full 80% water change in between. You must use for the full 5 days.

Remember, this was NOT recommended to me by a vet, just a long time breeder that I trust. Use this method at your own risk.

[Dee]

Hi Merrilyn,

Thank you for the information and explanation of Amoxycillin. Would you say that Amoxycillin is a broader spectrum antibiotic than Metronidazole? Being that Metronidazole is only really effective against the bug that causes hex and one other bug that I can't remember the name of :roll: Or is it a infection specific antibiotic ? G.P's prescribe Flagyl (Metro) for intestinal problems, would Amoxycillin be prescibed for more "open wound" like infections as in sore throats and infected cuts etc ? if that makes sense ?

MAC,

This may be a stupid question, but are the fish pooing ? I assume that if they are eating, even though not eating much, they would be pooing? If so does it look healthy ? Just thought I'd ask. I think Merrilyns point of a low level infection of some sort making the fish slightly unwell as apposed to a full blown illness very intresting. MAC and Kaza if you decide to try the Amoxycillin treatment can you please post the results, I would be intrested in how it goes.

Cheers,

Dee :)

[mistakes r crucial]

Merrilyn, Dee, Leanne, Trebs, thanks very much for all your input, it's very much appreciated.

Dee, I don't know what the active ingredient is in Octazin, Waterlife seem to keep these sort of things very close to their chest for some reason. The fact that it treats Hex would point to Metro but who knows.

As far as the old poo is concerned there isn't alot of it but what there is it's black and looks like it should do in small fish, mouse droppings.

As I said in my initial post I have split them up and treating with different meds right now so I think I'll let them run their course (2 more days), leave them a week with water changes every day and then try metro with one lot of 5 and Amoxycillin with the other lot.

Thanks once again for all the help, if I was treating Gold fish I would actually enjoy this learning curve. At least something has gone right this weekend, my Super Red Melon pair have just spawned again.
MAC

[Kaza]

Amoxycillin is a broad spectrum, gram positive antibiotic. Often nasty bugs will only be killed by a gram negative drug. However for discus who are kind of eatting, and not gaining weight its worth a go. What I want to know is will it kill the filter bacteria? I am adding one 500mg capsule per day to a 5 foot tank. It sure is a cheap drug to use.

[Dee]

Hi Kaza,

Thank you for the info. I was just intrested in what the difference is between the two antibiotics. Thanks again.

Cheers,

Dee :)

[Ben]

Mac,
How are your fish? Has anyone been able to give you an answer?
I hope they are on the road to recovery for you.
keep us posted,

Ben

[Lichan]

MAC,

Was browsing some old posts and found this one. I was wondering how these young ones turned out. Did Ladyreds suggestion give them a new lease on life so to speak. Did they start eating and growing as you would expect ??

Pete

[fishgeek]

just an idea for any future readers
collect feacal samples to rule out internal flagellate protozoa and worms before just treating with metronidazol or worming

when worming be aware that praziquantel is not controlling round worm
you will need levamisol/fenbendazol/flubendazol/piperazine for this

amoxycillin is used in ornamental fish though educated folk would suggest that it's use is limited by the fact that few gram positive bacteria are pathogens in fish
gram positive or gram negative is purely a denomination for the colour the bacteria turns when stained with a particular dye
most aquatic pathogens are gram negative

dose's fro amoxycillin are 40-80mg/kg in feed for 10 days

andrew
and by the way how did the fish go?

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi Andrew,

The fish have gone really well. We ended up sacrificing a fish from each tank to get to the bottom of the problems and at that time they were numerous but with the help of a brilliant vet all is now well and has been for many months. We have healthy, clean fish many of which are pairing off and some breeding already.

MAC

[endless]

Can you tell us what the problem was so that in the future if we encounter the same thing we might have a chance of beating it like you did.