Discus fever

[Sabrina]

Hi guys!

Long time no see.. Very big hello to Hollowman and Sayid, if you guys are still here? :D

Today I put a tank on hold at my local pet store.. Its this one: http://www.aquaone.com.au/2015-04-16-04-47-04/2015-04-16-06-00-17/aquariums/horizon/item/3159-56172
It is a 4 foot, 182 liter (48 gallons) AquaOne Horizon fish tank. For those who didn't know, I had trouble where I was living and had to sell up my fish and everything 6 months ago.
I have since moved town and am settled in a new home, and I'm happy again. I am getting back into my hobby fish keeping that I have missed so dearly. Of course I am interested
in keeping Discus again, I am however frightened to take the leap into them again, after all the trouble I had the first time last year.. Though, I am of course more experienced now
but that does not convince me enough. I lost a few Discus back then, which broke my heart, which is the only thing making me think twice.. I plan on picking that tank up next week,
I am in no rush to stock it, going to take it slow and get things right. I plan on bare bottom, some fake silk plants (don't want pest snails from live plants), a ship wreck and perhaps
some cool pieces of drift wood. It has a hang on the back filter 600 liters an hour flow rate, and a nice 25W LED T8 light, I will also add a jumbo sponge filter and round air stone and
last but not least a Eheim 200W heater..
Hm sounds perfect for discus lol.. Well maybe not the ship wreck :P
Do you guys think I should have another try keeping Discus?

[Hollowman]

Hey Sabrina, good to see you again. Myself and Sayid are still here.

Sorry to hear about your move and fish, but that is a lovely tank and great for a few discus. My last show tank was an AquaOne, the build quality is great.
If you are no hurry to stock, then take time to get your cycle done properly. Try a fishless cycle with ammonia, fish safe and you only need a test kit, no suffering little fish. I will try and find a link to the last time I did mine.

Good luck and welcome back fish friend.

[Hollowman]

Link as promised,

http://www.discusforums.com/forum/showthread.php?4962-Questions-re-fishless-cycling-UPDATE&highlight=Fishless+cycling

Read Merrilyn's post as she explained it well. A fully mature tank can be reached in 6 weeks.

Good luck.

[Sabrina]

Hey :D

Ooo thank you very much for the info on a fishless cycle, I will read up on it and learn what to do. Yes I am in no hurry to stock so this is a great idea!
I am so excited to pick up the tank, I'm glad its a good build, it certainly looks great I'm very happy..
Thank you again fish friend :D
Glad you guys are still here, I'm sure I will need your help again!

[Sabrina]

Hi, I have read the fishless cycle post and I think I have an idea where to start, just one thing.. I don't know where to find liquid Ammonia? Or have I became confused, am I meant to use fish food as the ammonia?
I just searched ebay for ammonia and only test kits and media came up.. :confused:

[Hollowman]

Sabrina, here is a link to Bunnings which I expect is near you somewhere.

https://www.bunnings.com.au/search/products?q=Ammonia&redirectFrom=Any

You will need a multi test kit, which will be best anyway. Test for Ammonia, Nitrites and Nitrates.

Like this one. http://www.theaquariumshop.com.au/shopexd.asp?id=424&name=Aquarium%20Pharmaceuticals%20API%20Freshwater %20Master%20Test%20Kit

[sayid]

Hi Sabrina,
It's great to hear from you,i am glad that you decided to give a tropical fish another go ,your tanks look nice and practical and it's new which means you can start fresh , the fact that you are not in a hurry is a great news so you can take your time to get to know your tank from A - Z ,also time to cycle it properly and add things to it in your own time , about ammonia , i am sure BUNNINGS will have it if not any good hard wear shop even your local chemist warehouse will have it ,just remember it has to be pure i.e no detergent or perfume also when you shake it should not have any bubble in the bottle .
BB tank is also a very wise decision ,i can see that you are going to enjoy this time .
Good luck.

[Sabrina]

Hey guys,

Thanks for replies and links/advice.. I will look for the ammonia in those places next week, and I already have the API master test kit on my list of so many things I need again :D
The tank was on a special price, $795 down too $450! So I am very happy about that. Hoping to pick it up next week along with many other things I need to start over again.

Question: Once the fishless cycle is complete and I am able to order/find my fish, can I add them all directly to the main tank? I will have a 2 foot Hospital tank on stand by, should
I be Quarantine them in the hospital tank first? Its just a 2 foot tank is small, how could I jam 5 Discus into one of them at the same time? :confused:

Looking forward to trying the fishless cycle and getting back into the hobby!
I will keep you all posted on updates as I go :)

[sayid]

Hi Sabrina;
I don't think you need to quarantine the fish in the hospital tank ,you can put them in the big tank straight away since you have no fish in there already , having said that you will put extra load on your new filter so please look out for ammonia spike you might need to have a few water change extra till your filter media catches up ,no heavy feeding either for same reason ,i am sure other people will give you additional advice as well ,this is ideal time to start reading about how discus keeping and care as well.
Take your time and enjoy the hobby .

[Sabrina]

Thank you Sayid :)
I am working on researching everything all over again, I would like to get things right this time, at least have a better time with it than I did last time anyway.

[Sabrina]

@Hollowman
After reading the fishless cycle a few times I have a question. The lady said to add plants air stones heater etc on day 2.. Considering it can take up to 6 weeks to cycle the tank, could I get away with not adding the heater on day 2? I wonder this because that's a long time to run a heater for no reason, or does it affect the bacteria if the water was cold and then weeks later once cycled I add the heater?

[Hollowman]

@Hollowman
After reading the fishless cycle a few times I have a question. The lady said to add plants air stones heater etc on day 2.. Considering it can take up to 6 weeks to cycle the tank, could I get away with not adding the heater on day 2? I wonder this because that's a long time to run a heater for no reason, or does it affect the bacteria if the water was cold and then weeks later once cycled I add the heater?

Sabrina, when I set up my filter tank I too did have a bit of a dilemma about this. As I remember I cycled without a heater for a few weeks. In the uk where I was living it was quite cold but the filter started to cycle anyway. As long as you are adding the ammonia solution every day, the cycle will start to show. When you start to think you are getting ready to add fish, then you can add a heater and gradually bring up to discus temperatures. Keep an eye on your nitrIte and nitrAte levels as at this point you should be adding ammonia and at the end of the day only show nitrAtes.

Maybe Sayid might be able to add to my thoughts, but I didn't have any problems by doing that way.

[Sabrina]

Thank you! That's great, I will follow that advice :)

Got the 2 foot hospital tank cleaned up with apple cider vinegar, looks brand new. Went into the pet store where I am getting the tank from and got together all the bits I'm going to need to start up. The tank is now coming home next week due to finances being delayed. Got on Ebay and ordered the master test kit, prime, sponge filter and air curtain.. Starting to get very excited lol

[sayid]

Sabrina, when I set up my filter tank I too did have a bit of a dilemma about this. As I remember I cycled without a heater for a few weeks. In the uk where I was living it was quite cold but the filter started to cycle anyway. As long as you are adding the ammonia solution every day, the cycle will start to show. When you start to think you are getting ready to add fish, then you can add a heater and gradually bring up to discus temperatures. Keep an eye on your nitrIte and nitrAte levels as at this point you should be adding ammonia and at the end of the day only show nitrAtes.

Maybe Sayid might be able to add to my thoughts, but I didn't have any problems by doing that way.

+1
I did a fishless cycling recently without heater with no problem, just start the heater 2 days before introduction of any fish ,good luck

[Sabrina]

Thank you :)

Sayid, I was planning to order my Discus from Sydney Discus World as I have done many google searches for Melbourne and cant find or don't know a reputable source there... Can I ask where you buy your Discus from in Melbourne? I would prefer to buy from Melbourne if I could as its closer to me, I'm only 1.5 hours north of Melbourne... If you could link me to a web site or telephone number I would be very grateful!

[discusriver]

lots of great aquariums in Melbourne with great discus.try new life aquarium and pet,aquatico aquarium just to name a few.both have good quality discus but you must go when there new shipments are released or the best ones sell quickly.look on Facebook at both aquariums

[sayid]

lots of great aquariums in Melbourne with great discus.try new life aquarium and pet,aquatico aquarium just to name a few.both have good quality discus but you must go when there new shipments are released or the best ones sell quickly.look on Facebook at both aquariums

+1
I have sent you PM.
Sayid

[Sabrina]

Hi discusriver,
Thank you so much for those, I just looked them up on FB, very nice! I will keep them noted down :)

[Sabrina]

Here is to new beginnings!
Wont be starting this project for a couple of weeks yet due to a shortage of funds atm but its home now and its awesome!
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[Hollowman]

Lovely, can't wait to see you start again. Even no funds Sabrina, you can fill it up with a body of water and start your cycle already.

[sayid]

Hi Sabrina;
It looks lovely ,very happy for you ,as Steve said you can but some water in that and start your cycling nice and slow ,i guess it will take 4- 6 weeks without a heater ,also you will get to know your equipment in the mean time .

[Sabrina]

Hi guys, thank you :D

I did end up filling it the other night, so its been running 3 days now. I changed my mind about the ammonia fishless cycle, I went with bottled bio booster instead. I have some Corydora catfish in there and despite the test results they seem very happy with all the space to swim in. Got my first reading of Nitrate yesterday, the ammonia and nitrite are stable in the tests, I have had the same reading 2 days in a row. Should I do a water change and how much water should I change at this stage? I have not done a water change yet because I'm using the bottled bio booster and didn't want to take out the good bacteria.
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PH 7.6
HRPH 7.4
Ammonia 0.50
Nitrite 0.25
Nitrate 10
This morning I dosed with prime and the bio booster after the above test, I took the test before feeding..
I have removed the original bio grid in the HOB filter and replaced it with Bio Noodles as pictured. There is still the sponge and carbon grid in there, and yesterday I added extra sponge media in preparation for the Seachem Purigen to arrive, when it arrives I will be removing the carbon/sponge grid, leaving the spare sponge media + purigen + noodles in the HOB. I also have a giant Sponge filter on the left of the tank..
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Any advice, suggestions at this stage would be great guys :)

[Hollowman]

In a rush to see fish in the tank you have made a mistake in my opinion Sabrina. The fish might look happy now, but the whole point of fishless cycling is not to let fish suffer in the time while the cycle is starting. Plus with adding of ammonia, you can increase the amount of ammonia to a level where your filters can handle bigger fish and more fish. In my opinion all of the off the shelf products to give you an instant cycle, don't... and give the user a false idea that they have a fully cycled filter.

Fishless is still the way

[Hollowman]

Remove the carbon.

[Sabrina]

Hi Hollowman,

Thank you for your response, I thought adding the Cories would also help in the cycle with the bottled bio booster, I didn't think they would be suffering due to the bio booster, should I remove them into my smaller tank?
By saying remove the carbon, do you mean right now? I don't have any of the Ammonia yet and cant get any until Tuesday. :(

[Hollowman]

Sabrina, it's just a case of doing it right first time and not rushing, as you said, you have lots of time.....to do it right. If you only have to wait until Tuesday for the ammonia then wait. Put the cories in your smaller tank where it will be easier to maintain them. The carbon will probably remove some of the bio stuff you are putting in so, yes out now.
Maintaining a fishless cycle is easy as you don't have to water change, unless things get way out, only towards the end of the cycle did I change the water as I remember.

Just have patience, ok

[Sabrina]

Hollowman, hello and thank you again..

Cories have been removed and so has the carbon grid.

Heating issues have happened, what should I do? I have it set on 26c and its holding at 28c.. Like right now its heating and the temp is showing 28.4c. Why is it going so high? It is a brand new heater. Calibrate it?
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It is a 200 Watt heater, 182L tank..

[Hollowman]

It happens with heaters, it is good you have a separate themometer to test it. At least you know that it reads two degrees difference in the future.

[Sabrina]

Okay :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkXR2-Kmlq4

[Hollowman]

Nice looking tank Sabrina

[Sabrina]

Thank you :)

Only 2 days until I can get the Ammonia now, I will report back then..

[sayid]

Hi Sabrina ;
One of the big lessons i have learned dealing with discus is the fact that you do need to have patience and not be compulsive .
Good luck

[Hollowman]

Hi Sabrina ;
One of the big lessons i have learned dealing with discus is the fact that you do need to have patience and not be compulsive .
Good luck
+1 for that

[Sabrina]

Hi Sayid,

Yes indeed, I agree. I need to contain my excitement..

How will I know how much Ammonia to add to the tank? Ive never done this before. I have just added some more filter media from my small tank to the new HOB this morning, to keep the bacteria alive. I did a test last night, following is the results.

PH 7.6
HRPH 7.4
Ammonia 0.50
Nitrite 0.50
Nitrate 10

I am going to order the Seachem Purigen tomorrow, hopefully it will only take a couple of days to arrive. The only things in the new HOB atm are ceramic bio rings and sponge filter floss and 2 small bits of filter media from my small cycled tank.. Which I hope will be the bacteria colony for the ammonia I buy tomorrow. Not sure how its going to work seeing I have used the bottled bio booster already though.

[Sabrina]

Also, Prime has been added to the tank last week, which on the instructions for ammonia fishless cycle it says not to add it.. Am I going to be wasting my time trying to now start the ammonia fishless cycle after everything I have done so far?

[Hollowman]

You only need ammonia right now Sabrina, no need for anything else.

[Sabrina]

HI guys,

Is this ok? It says on the side Contains: Ammonia 20g/l... But its called cloudy ammonia?
It was all I could find, I went to the hardware stores and they only had the cloudy ammonia too.. I might have to travel to another town if this stuff is wrong..

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[Sabrina]

Please note, the ammonia above does not foam or have any bubbles when its shaken up. I'm reading that cloudy ammonia has soap in it but I don't think the above one does have any soap.

EDIT: I am waiting on a call back from the manufactures of this product...

[Hollowman]

This is ok to use Sabrina, you can do some of your own searches about different ammonia for fishless cycles, and this one is ok.

[Sabrina]

Thank you Hollowman :)

[sayid]

Hi Sabrina;
I am glad that you are excited about your tank but trust me you need to slowdown your enthusiasm ,in my opinion you don't need to bring yet another factor ( seachem purigen ) in to the equation , your test shows that you are in the middle of your cycling ,you filter is already converting SOME ammonia to nitrite but still have some time to go ,do your self a favor and read one of the stickies on fishless cycling . As Steve said all you need is little bit of ammonia to keep your good bacteria happy .
Good luck.

[Sabrina]

Hi Sayid,
Thank you again for your reply, I am remaining clam now, I jumped the gun with adding the Cories I know. The reason I ordered the Seachem Purigen is I had got advice it was the best stuff to use in your filter, I can hold off adding it at this stage though. I added 2 capfuls of the Ammonia last night, I think that was way too much, I am about to test the tank now so I will report back with my results shortly.

EDIT:

KH 71.6
GH 107.4
PH 7.6
Ammonia 2.0
Nitrite 2.0
Nitrate 10

[sayid]

Hi Sabrina;
The reason behind fishless cycling is that when you are cycling and have no fish in the tank you can add ammonia to feed your beneficial bacteria (BB) now if you add alittle too much it's not a big deal but you have made your life more difficult by adding the cories ,they make their own ammonia which perhaps not enough to keep your cycling happen fast enough and you adding ammonia on top that will make your ammonia level above the comfort level of your fish (or cories ) that is the reason behind fishless cycling .
o.k you have a few option.
1. remove your cories to a smaller tank like hospital tank e.g 20 liter which is easy to wc and do 50% wc every day and do that till your display tank cycles, in the mean time do a fishless cycling on your display tank
2. continue what you are doing but reduce your ammonia dosing but keep it to minimum like o.5 ppm and be prepared that you might lose some cories as the result .
Remember that the you need some ammonia to keep BB alive and happy but you need ideally zero ammonia for the health of your cories so if you test and ammonia is high like 2 ppm you need to do wc .
You can help the situation buy keeping your ph less than 7 which we are lucky because our water is soft , i don't know why your water is 7.6 but i advise you to put a dritwood in the tank .
Also go and get as much reading as you have time .
Good luck

[sayid]

One other thing ,your KH and GH values are high for our water ,are you sure you are not adding any other chemicals to your water also your ph should be around 6.8 perhaps 6.9

[Sabrina]

Hi Sayid,

I removed the Cories days ago as Steve advised me too... So they are happy now :)

I havnt added any other chemicals to change PH GH KH levels, that's just what they are at the moment. The GH and KH were much higher where I used to live, so I thought the current test was quiet good actually.. And the PH took months to come down in the 6s at my old address..

Today I decorated the tank! I am so so excited at how it turned out. I think it looks amazing :D
Thoughts?
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[Sabrina]

The Swords and Blue Strictas are live plants :D
Here is a video guys!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG_XxAh906k

[sayid]

I would not have believed if you hadn't told me ,they are very colourful and look artificial , at least they will help your tank reducing nitrate ,BTW i know that you like helmets and things but you need some space for your discus ha.ha.ha......

[Sabrina]

lol Sayid I know, I went over board with decorations!

I have made a decision not to get Discus right now, I'm going to get them in the future, I would really prefer to have a 6 foot tank rather than my 4 foot as such. So for now I will just have some small fish to keep me occupied :)

I will be keeping an eye out for a good 6 foot tank from now, I want a really nice looking tank not those standard looking ones.. So for now I'm pretty sure this project is on hold..

Thank you both for all the help so far, I will see you around the forums :D

[Hollowman]

Sabrina, you can still discuss your tank and fish here, the rules are about the same for most fish, it's just that Discus 'are' the Kings of the Aquarium, there are no other fish to beat them imo. But good luck whatever you choose.

[Sabrina]

Hollowman, thank you :)
The main reason for putting my discus project off besides the tank size was the cost of 5 discus in one hit, I just don't have the money right now to fork out for 5 at once, we know how expensive they are :'(
It cost me more to start back up than I thought it would, to get the tank to where it is now cost $1000.. I'm not working so its hard for me to find the money right now.
So for the moment, I have small fish in the tank, 0.25 ammonia 0.25 nitrite and 20 nitrate..

[Krissy]

Hi Sabrina, so glad you decided to try again. I’ve been following your post and are keen to know how you went with your new tank. Have you got Discus in there now? Your plants looked absolutely amazing. Be great to see some updated pics. Hope all is going well ��

[Sabrina]

Hi Krissy!
Lovely to see you here :)
Well a lot has happened since I posted this thread back then. I didn't end up getting discus at that stage, I ended up doing a community tank with neon's, rams and cories. Which didn't end up going well, the tank turned into the bermuda triangle for a few weeks, my rams went missing. I finally found the culprit, it was the diving helmet ornament they were getting stuck in, which was fatal for the fish. So i ended up giving up fish keeping after that for awhile. But I'm now back keeping discus, i started the tank up again from scratch exactly 1 month ago now. Used Fluval Cycle and Prime to cycle the tank, it took 2 weeks. I had been visiting the local pet stores for weeks before, and at one of them there was this poor little discus all alone, i had to save him. So i brought him home, popped him in the tank with my 6 corydoras and that was that. As the weeks have gone on i have by chance been contacted by the woman that brought my old discus off me over 12 months ago, Red was a new father of 90 odd babies she tells me. So then the plans to buy some of the babies happened, 4 days ago i brought 2 of them, they are still white with no real colour except a tint on their fins. So i currently have 3 discus with plans to buy 2 more babies next week, that will make 5 for that tank. I was also offered by one of my friends her discus, there is 5 of them left now, some as big as my hand. She had a second hand 4 foot tank, so i brought that off her a couple of weeks ago, its currently having some repairs done to it but should be up and running in the next week. So i will be buying her discus in the next 2 weeks once the tank is cycled and ready to go. So as you can see alot is going down here in this little house hold in regards to fish, i might have chosen the hard road again but life is unpredictable. As much as i would have loved to buy the perfect discus from the perfect store or breeder costing me hundreds of dollars, it just didn't work out that way this time round again. Lets just hope i have better luck the second time around! Thank you for asking after me Krissy and sorry its such a long winded post! :)
Following are some recent photos of the tank and my current discus..
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[Hollowman]

looks great Sabrina

[sayid]

Hi Sabrina ;
Nice to see you back again ,by the look of it you are going to be a busy lady .

[Sabrina]

Hello Hollowman and Sayid!!

Thank you both for the replies. Yes very busy raising these babies, lots of water changes and feeding. Everything is going great so far, fingers crossed it stays that way!

Question: I have a HOB filter, how often do I need to change the Carbon cartridge please? Every 2-3 months?

[Hollowman]

Hi Sabrina,

I never had the need to use carbon so cant say for sure. Is there no information from the manufacturer?

[sayid]

Hi Sabrina;
As Steve mentioned you only use carbon if you want to get rid of some thing in the tank e.g medication ,antibiotic ,but in reality you don't need it ,also there is a danger with carbon if you don't replace it after 3 weeks ,if you forget the carbon will release all the toxin back in to the tank.
My suggestion is to replace carbon with sponge or polyester floss and clean it once a day ,some time simple ways are much easier.

[Hollowman]

You are correct Sayid, ok for removing meds but no need for constant use, I am not sure why some manufacturers supply with new filters to be honest. And again correct about leeching back toxins, I for got that, if used for too long.

[Sabrina]

Hi guys,
Just finished a 35% water change, with your advice I changed the Carbon/Floss cartridge to a new Carbon/Floss cartridge as that's what I had handy, the pet store was closed and I couldn't get my hands on some white filter floss to go with the new ceramic noodles I had brought last week, to replace the carbon/floss cartridge all together. So, I will now wait 3 weeks and then replace the carbon/floss cartridge with ceramic noodles and white filter floss.. There is also a bio grid in the HOB filter which held some BB, and I'm running a jumbo sponge filter too, so I will be interested to see if I loose my cycle after replacing the new carbon/floss cartridge today.. I will let the water settle for 3 hours now and then test it, hopefully my Nitrate will have dropped a bit, it was reading 40ppm.

If there is one thing I remember about researching carbon 12 odd months ago, it was that once the carbon was at the end of its life (3 weeks, as sayid said) the carbon then just stops working at removing toxins, it does not leech them back into the water. I just looked it up, here is the info:

Does Carbon leach absorbed contaminants back into the water once it’s exhausted?
Not under normal conditions, however there are a few exceptions. As long as your pH is within normal range for marine aquariums then the answer is no, carbon will not leach substances back into the water once it’s useful life has expired. Extreme shifts in pH to highly alkaline or acidic ranges would cause carbon to leach contaminants back into the aquarium water and at that point everything in the aquarium would cease to live. Therefore, carbon will not leach contaminants back into the aquarium.

Thank you both for your help on this note, I will report back with my water readings in a few hours :)

[Sabrina]

Hello again,
My readings were as follows last night:
PH 7.0
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 40
KH 35.8
GH 107.4
I tested the nitrite again in the morning to double check I had not lost the cycle, it was zero again thankfully. There is still an issue with the nitrate being 40 though, I cant seem to get it to lower. I havnt been taking out more than 40% water during a water change, perhaps I need to do a 60% one and see if that helps. Here is a vid and some pics I took today..
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Swayaj-9IY8

[sayid]

Hi Sabrina ;
Your tank looks very clean ,is it my imagination or a few of those plants are artificial ,i am a bit baffled by your nitrate level ,40 ppm is a bit high for the number of fish you have which makes me think if you may not be able to vacuum the waist/ detritus the way you want ,not very urgent but worth thinking about before it start the health of your fish . apart from that your tank and fish looks lovely.

[Sabrina]

Hi,
Only one of the plants is fake, the others are live. I have been doing regular water changes but they have not been big ones, only around 40% each time, which I thought was enough, but maybe not. I have time today to do a large water change so I'm thinking I will take out 50% water and vacuum, add it back and then back to back do another 50% change, surely that will bring my nitrate down. Thanks, I think they look good too :)

[Sabrina]

Turns out I only needed to do one large water change to bring the Nitrate down. I changed just over 100 liters of water, that's 26 gallons. My nitrate is now 10-20ppm, I am happy with that. Its been a busy day here with the big water change and I also set up my other 4 foot tank I brought a few weeks ago, its now full, running and dosed with Prime and Fluval Cycle. The Fluval cycle treatment goes for 3 days, so I will add some Cories on Wednesday-Thursday to complete the cycle process. This will be the 3rd time I have used Fluval cycle, your tank only takes exactly 2 weeks to the day to cycle fully with only a couple of small water changes, its much better than any other bottled beneficial bacteria on the market, I absolutely swear by it now. :)