Some doubts about discus, help please.

[donethur]

Hello, I am new here, and I have some doubts (tried in other forum, but it looks nobody knew), it would be great if somebody with more experience could clarify them:

1-I got a blue discus ill when I left my country, then, after arriving, I treated him and he totally recovered (now eating, fat, with a lot more color and very active). Nonetheless, the colour is still not what he had before. He is beautiful now, a lot more colour than when he was sick, but before he used to be more blue. The doubt is: is he going to recover the colour or when this happens there is no way back?.

2-I got time ago two albinos, one was red cover and AMG (young). The red one started to lose its colour, it looks that the seller (from USA) uses carotyll for the red, which was a bit dissapointing because I do not use any kind of colorants, I like more the natural colour they could get with natural products (i feed them with: dried blackworms, Cobalt pro breeder flakes, dried beefheart, Nutrafin for discus, live earthworms (daily), live artemia (daily), live daphnia, live zophoba worms, and some mussels on the weekends). My doubt here is: how a great albino red cover should look like without carotyll?, or they are always not that red and the only way to have them red is with carotyll?.

3-I have heard that AMG become orange if you feed them with pellet, all indicates that this happens with the red enhancer carotyll. My doubt is: all AMG full yellow are maintained with carotyll?. Mine is yellow, some orange coloration but more yellow, and the head is white. Should I expect a full yellow or without artificial colorants it is not going to happen?.

Graphic explanation:

https://www.imageupload.co.uk/images/2016/11/19/999999999999999999blue.png


Ok, as you can see in the image, you see the three of them.

-the blue one was really very blue, I went to Colombia for 1 month in September and after I arrived it was sick, so I medicated it with metro and all was fine afterwards. But the color never totally recovered as you can see in the next photos. I dont think he can change colour so fast (comparing with the normal change in the color while a fish is growing), and just after a desease, so it is more like the desease affected the color of the fish, and my doubt is if he will recover the beautiful blue or not, achieving the full potential he was appearing to show.

-the AMG has its head White. My doubt is: can I achieve full yellow coloration without artificial colorants as carotyll?

-The albino red cover is really red. Not that red afterwards. So, what can I expect from a real albino red cover or if all of them are always maintained with carotyll and colorants.

https://www.imageupload.co.uk/images/2016/11/19/66666666666666666666666discus.png

-look at this photo above, this is how the blue one looks like now. The color is still nice, but it dramatically changed, in the head is very noticiable.

https://www.imageupload.co.uk/images/2016/11/19/777777777discusred.png

Look how the albino red cover looks like above, he is not red cover animore . Now it is even more paled. Both sides were equally red at the begining.

Thanks!!!

[Hollowman]

Hi, & welcome to the forum.

You still have some beautiful fish even with the colour fading, sure many here would be pleased to own them.

I see your concern with the colour and unfortunately many breeders do enhance the fish's natural colour with chemicals. Your BD. I think will improve with time, if it was a stronger blue and lost its intensity after the treatment then give it time. For the Covers, have you considered feeding Krill? You can mix in with your beefheart or feed separately. Krill has natural red enhancing affects so might help return the lost colour.

Hth

H

[sayid]

Hello and welcome;
I am using tetra color tropical granules for many years ,it says on the box that it has got natural color enhancer ,i am quite happy with it ,the only short coming is that if you feed it to your yellow discus it changes to orange also if you feed it to snow white diamond discus it changes to milky white but for red base discus there is no problem.
good luck
sayid

[donethur]

Hi, & welcome to the forum.

You still have some beautiful fish even with the colour fading, sure many here would be pleased to own them.

I see your concern with the colour and unfortunately many breeders do enhance the fish's natural colour with chemicals. Your BD. I think will improve with time, if it was a stronger blue and lost its intensity after the treatment then give it time. For the Covers, have you considered feeding Krill? You can mix in with your beefheart or feed separately. Krill has natural red enhancing affects so might help return the lost colour.

Hth

H

Thanks for the welcome and the help!

Hey, doubt: krill could make the AMG orange or not?.

Just for general infom I would like to list the current food I use for them: zophobas worms (live, each 3 days), artemia (live, all days), earthworms (live, all days), Cobalt Probreeder flakes (all days), Nutrafin for discus (each 2 days), dried blackworms with dried beefheart (daily), frozen mussels each weekend, and thats it.

[donethur]

Hello and welcome;
I am using tetra color tropical granules for many years ,it says on the box that it has got natural color enhancer ,i am quite happy with it ,the only short coming is that if you feed it to your yellow discus it changes to orange also if you feed it to snow white diamond discus it changes to milky white but for red base discus there is no problem.
good luck
sayid

Thanks man. Yes, thats the problem actually, I dont want to lose the AMG. If I dont use red enhancer, the red will remain as it is (still nice, actually the seller who imported offered me to change it, but I already love him, thats is a big problem to me, it is really hard to me to remove a fish from my tank), and the AMG could keep the nice yellow. If I use it, the red will look pretier, but the AMG will be AMO (albino millenium orange :D)

[Sabrina]

Hi and welcome!
Your fish are lovely, hope you get the help you need here :)

[sayid]

Donethur; you have not said where you live ,but i am not familiar with the brands of food that you are using having said that i am worried that you are using live food for your discus not only that but so many different live food ,in Australia we don't use live earth worm you may as well play Russian rullet ,they are full of parasites and sooner or later you have to deal with a tank full of sick and dying fish ,i know in Asia they feed it to discus because it is cheap but it's risky .
Regarding natural colour enhancers the other food which i can mention is spirulina which is an algae and i add that to my home made beef heart and it does not change the fish orange ,you can buy them on line and its made by SERA and is used for blue discus .
hope this helps
sayid

[donethur]

Donethur; you have not said where you live ,but i am not familiar with the brands of food that you are using having said that i am worried that you are using live food for your discus not only that but so many different live food ,in Australia we don't use live earth worm you may as well play Russian rullet ,they are full of parasites and sooner or later you have to deal with a tank full of sick and dying fish ,i know in Asia they feed it to discus because it is cheap but it's risky .
Regarding natural colour enhancers the other food which i can mention is spirulina which is an algae and i add that to my home made beef heart and it does not change the fish orange ,you can buy them on line and its made by SERA and is used for blue discus .
hope this helps
sayid

Hi sayid,

Thanks for your input.

Well, I am from Chile, sorry for not mentioning it. Regarding live food, the only one that may represent a "risk" is the earth worm as you said. Nonetheless, you dont know what I do :D and I have some contra arguments actually.

Well, first I cut them all in smaller parts. Then I wash them A LOT to remove all the earth inside. This + chlorine in the tap water, I think represents a safe enough food for them. On the other hand, you have several breeders that feed them like this (bloodworms specially), and successful ones. Dont you think that this may represent something different?. I mean, if this would really matter, then they should have big losses, correct?. I think the fish itself has defenses, thats the explanation, and I think it is equally Russian rulet if you put your fish in a bubble where no illness exist, as at fist contact with them, they wont be able to defend against the new bacteries or protozoa. On the other hand, I think there is enough bacteries in the aquarium, because of the descomposition of the organic matter (waste, plants, food, etc.), not sure how bad it is to have actually a bit of bacteria inside. I think the most important thing is the water quality. That explains the success of the Asian breeders, and why I dont get discus sick (the case of the blue one is identified as exception, as I wasnt in my home, and the person in charge wasnt appropiate for the task). The evidence of this is: every single case of disease in discus I have seen is because water quality or stress (or a protozoa coming from a different already infected tank). Nothing related to food actually. Good water quality should keep the fish healthy, and thats only what matters in my opinion. Considering that logic, I think it may be better to give them a good quality food as earth worm, than a less quality food as dried food, or even the beefheart may have more fat than this, and it is actually a lot more dirty, which causes a lot of organic matters to be discomposed, which means more bacteries. I think at the end, it may even be the same or very similar.

It is easy for me to remove earthworm from the diet, as I have other alternatives more "clean". Nonetheless, there is a particular reason why I chose to keep them, after trying a lot: they are easy to breed, and the most important thing: not sure what the earth worm has (red earth worms, here they cal it "Californian worm"), but after they eat it they increase the natural colours a lot, but A LOT, more tan anything else. They start to mark territory, it looks their energy increases a lot. Also, they love them, more than anything I used before. I used to have a P. Altum, but I hasd to remove it as after eating earth worms, the Altum started to attack to the blue discus (the Altum variety has some blue color on it). So, something happens with this food that help them because of their vital energy. I have seen more grow rate and better behavior, all of them keep claiming a place in the shoal (some shy discus are not that shy now).

Finally, I dont get why you say that giving them so many different food may affect. Can you clarify this?, how variety means bad and why?.


Regarding spirulina, nice, thanks. I have it but dried, not the same than live I imagine. Does this increases an specific colour?, or all of them?.

Rgds,

[donethur]

Hi and welcome!
Your fish are lovely, hope you get the help you need here :)


Thanks Sabrina :)

I hope it too, but I think I had advances. At least now I have hope for the blue one, looks like I need to be more patient. Regardiong the albinos, I just want to know what to expect of a red albino without carotyll. Is there at least one???. And if the AMGs have the head yellow because of the carotyll or if they naturally will be full yellow.

[Sabrina]

Your welcome Donethur! I cant answer those questions though as i dont know the right answer sorry.. I would think that with good care, clean water and good food their colors will come back or be as good as they can be naturally :D

[donethur]

thanks Sabrina :) hope you are right and he will take the beautiful potential he had.

Sayid, I was investigating, because the earthworm has parasites as you said. I had the doubt which parasite exactly may affect discus. Do you have some papers or info?. What I investigated is that the most common parasite is monocystis. I searched info how this may affect to a fish, and there is no info so far. Which ones affect actually to the fish and how?. It would be great to have this info, for analysis. I am not saying I am right, I am saying that so far so good, but the day I find something weird, I will remove it from the diet. But I need more info now. In any case, it is hard to me to think in this as a risk, as too many time has passed. As I understand sickness, if the parasite would really affect to the animal, they should be all affected, no exception, unless the fish defenses do their job. If they do, then it is ok from my point of view, as the real cause of desease may be other, and not the food by itself, it may be a mix of things.

In any case, more info is totally welcome! :)


thanks

[sayid]

i am not against variety of food ,i was worried with the variety of live foods having said that i respect your sense of adventure and wish you luck and please keep us informed on the out come.
sayid

[donethur]

thanks sayid. BTW the pic of the discus are taken after 4 months of feeding. At least three things improved specifically with the earthworm:

-natural colors are better
-growth rate increased
-mood and behavior improved a lot, they never were so alive and predators. I have seen even small ones claiming hierarchy. :D

I will keep you posted. And thanks for your comments, actually they helped a lot, as probably I wont change the diet with the info I have so far (not enough), but I learnt a lot investigating after your comment, as I never had that in mind. That kind of interventions help me a lot, always. A different point of view is always welcome.

[Hollowman]

Your reply to my suggestion of Krill was very dismissive, if you come asking for help please do not doubt our experience. It seems you already know what you are doing although as warned by Sayid, you are playing with fire feeding so many live foods.

But they are your fish. I would not do what you do and use proven foods and methods.

[donethur]

Your reply to my suggestion of Krill was very dismissive, if you come asking for help please do not doubt our experience. It seems you already know what you are doing although as warned by Sayid, you are playing with fire feeding so many live foods.

But they are your fish. I would not do what you do and use proven foods and methods.


I would like to list you the points that would explain why I do this:

-First, I dont have to follow all the recommendations literally!, imagine I would do that after all my doubts, the possibility of wrong recommendations is high, i JUST CANNOT DO THAT. There is a lot of myths in this hobbie, and I am not in a scientific forum, anybody may issue an opinion.

-Second, my doubt is not how to colorate it again, my doubt is what I can expect of an albino red without carotyll, because I am not considering changing the diet, at least for now.

-Krill is no available in my country as live food, only in flakes. I prefer live food.

-Actually I didnt dismissed it. I even asked you something as I dont want to affect my yellow discus (red enhancer= bad for AMG, a reasonable enough doubt, right?)

-feeding with earthworm is a proved method used in fish farming, a lot of reasearch has been made and is available.

-discus also eat different varieties of live food in their natural habitat

-show me one example where live food affected please, variety of live food as well (I already searched both topics, but nothing found). Also, a lot of papers indicate that they are a superb food, high qualtity, and they fulfil all the nutritional needs of the fish.

-There are several other forums where a lot of people have been successful with earthworms, including breeders. When you have so many cases like those, there is enough data to at least having doubts that it really affects.

-I have this routine since a lot of time and no issues at all, I also have my own experience to add to this discussion too.


Therefore, there is no reasonable amount of information to conclude that they may affect discus, actually all experiences indicate that they are good, there no single experience with bad results.

I cannot believe everything I read just because other person says it, I need to take my own decisions, this may be helpful for analysis only, the conclusión should be mine, otherwise it is like being a zombie who follows rules, nothing else. Understanding to me is the key, not blind acceptation. People in this hobbie uses to share particular experiences as big truth, but they are only particular experiences. A lot of variables may change the results, so not because somebody was successful, it means he is doing the right thing, or not because one failed, it means he did everything correctly. Thats why, the best is to conclude your own things. The amount of people with success is an important information, as you could "filter" the particular cases with the sum up of cases.

Hope my position is clear.

[Hollowman]

Your position is very clear, you already know everything. Why not ask on another forum... oh you did already. Btw, Krill are normally in frozen form and can be mixed into your beefheart mix. Live cows don't fit in my tank.

As you specified in Simply Discus that you didn't here that you strip and clean your earthworms, maybe post all facts before shooting down people who are trying to help you.

Have I made my position clear.

Oh, one more thing, I have been a member of SD for 11 years

[donethur]

Your position is very clear, you already know everything. Why not ask on another forum... oh you did already. Btw, Krill are normally in frozen form and can be mixed into your beefheart mix. Live cows don't fit in my tank.

As you specified in Simply Discus that you didn't here that you strip and clean your earthworms, maybe post all facts before shooting down people who are trying to help you.

Have I made my position clear.

Oh, one more thing, I have been a member of SD for 11 years


Hey man, it is just not nice anymore...

-I never asked you how to colorate my fish nor how to feed my fish, thats something that appeared ramdomly. You say "if you request help dont doubt of our experience...blablabla" but I never requested help about that. Why should I follow all you say?. My doubt was really specific and nobody answered it yet, except for the blue one.

-I do not know everything, but I like to have backup of my actions. So far= more cases of success, zero not sucess.

-whats the problem that I ask in SD?, and why youi even say it here?. I participate in more than one forum, hope thats ok. Nonetheless, I think I am leaving this one, I cannot believe the level is so low that the moderator has an ego issue right now because I didnt put enough attention (acording with him) to his recommendation. So the level here is: follow rules, dont question anything, do what we say and see the light. Just like a church. I havent been disrespectful, your position is like obligating me to follow you. I dont care your résumé, to me, if you recommend red enhancer for an AMG, and if krill provides it, it will turn my AMG orange so that statement would be wrong, and it wont be less wrong if you have 100 years in the hobbie, it is what it is.

-Again, krill is normally in frozen form, IN YOUR COUNTRY. not here.

-I already said that I cut and I wash earthworms, you need to read more carefully. Just extracted from the page 1 of this thread: "Well, first I cut them all in smaller parts. Then I wash them A LOT to remove all the earth inside. This + chlorine in the tap water, I think represents a safe enough food for them."


-Again, never requested help regarding feeding.

So bad you took this position, you are moderator and you represent the spirit of this forum. A forum with good level would accept all point of views and the discussion should be based in experience and theory (not saying that people here have bad level, it is what you expect). Both should be analyzed, all the variables, and at the end the truth comes out. But here you only want blind acceptation of all what you say ("ok, I give to the discus krill", but lets imagine I do this, my AMG turns orange then, are you going to return me USD 350 which is the cost it had?. Never said why it wont affect to the AMG.

Ok bye.

[donethur]

BTW in SD they all say the earthworm is clean enough. Didnt mention it because I am not sure if I can post links to other forums here. Why that experience is not valid and only yours?

[Hollowman]

As I said, you must know more than me. Enjoy your fish