Extreme water hardness

[Krissy]

Hi, new to discus keeping and have a serious problem with the hardness of my bore water. After loosing my four discus last week when I'd religiously checked water parameters, undertaken 20 - 30% wc, chemical adjustments, incorporating live plant on driftwood etc I decided maybe there was something wrong with the water hardness, yep! Checked my tank and KH came out at 161.1 ppm & GH off the chart, took 14 drops to change to green, so in excess of 214.8 ppm. BTW, tank was up for three weeks without fish. Lost my discus within the second week of having them. Tank capacity 220 L. Any ideas of how I can correct this would be much appreciated.

[Hollowman]

Hi, new to discus keeping and have a serious problem with the hardness of my bore water. After loosing my four discus last week when I'd religiously checked water parameters, undertaken 20 - 30% wc, chemical adjustments, incorporating live plant on driftwood etc I decided maybe there was something wrong with the water hardness, yep! Checked my tank and KH came out at 161.1 ppm & GH off the chart, took 14 drops to change to green, so in excess of 214.8 ppm. BTW, tank was up for three weeks without fish. Lost my discus within the second week of having them. Tank capacity 220 L. Any ideas of how I can correct this would be much appreciated.
Water hardness will not kill the fish. Sounds like you were trying to get everything parameters to the book, often a mistake. Of course discus like softer water parameters, but they are fine in harder water too. What was the hardness of the water that they had been in before you bought them?

[Krissy]

Hi Hollowman,

Unfortunately I don't know what the hardness was. I purchased them from a local supplier who advised they believed when I told them what happened that it was probably the hardness of the water. Some of the research I've done seems to support this so I'm interested in your thoughts on water hardness as I've not replaced the discus as was thinking of doing a combination of Reverse osmosis water and bore water because of the research suggesting discus don't do well in hard water. I agree with you I was trying to do everything by the book - was just getting in a viscious cycle of chemical correction after chemical correction. Perhaps I should try again as I've kept the tank running since and the corydoras are still doing fine without all the chemical additives? Just don't like the thought of killing more of these beautiful fish if it doesn't work.

[Hollowman]

Krissy, I think many people do what you did and like you say, all the chemical buffering really is not so good or necessary. As an example, take a look at this web site for Stenker discus in Germany.

http://diskuszucht-stendker.de/en/Wissenswertes/

And these PDFs from his site, the link specifically refers to water parameters

http://diskuszucht-stendker.de/plugins_en/pdfs/3.3_Wasserwerte_und_Wasserchemie_en.pdf

Ok, this is in Germany, but water is water and even though it can vary in composition all over the world, what you have described is similar to what I have in the UK and in Germany.

I would also take issue with the diagnosis given by your supplier, how do you know that the fish were not infested with internal parasites or worms? This can silently kill many fish, although to the educated eye can be seen a mile off. Did you add your new discus to an existing stock of fish? Maybe there was an illness transmitted because of no quarantine.

Using water similar to the sellers water parameters is always a bonus, but though water changes you can ween them back onto the water you have from your bore hole, this can be done with mixing with RO water over a period of water changes, or if you already use RO then if you can only use RO. Having a big storage tank for RO water and aging/heating is always a bonus but not essential.

Other than this diagnosis of the reasons the fish died is not easy unless you have photos. Don't be put off keeping discus, they are quite bulletproof really if you do it right.

Good luck

[shiney2512]

BTW, tank was up for three weeks without fish. Lost my discus within the second week of having them. Tank capacity 220 L. Any ideas of how I can correct this would be much appreciated.

How did you cycle the tank? What were the nitrite & nitrate readings? Its possible the tank might not have been cycled long enough?

[Krissy]

I purchased the Fluval U4 (240 Litre) pump and followed the instructions and ran it without fish for three weeks - cannot recall now what else I did. The nitrites weren't too bad except for one occasion when they reached around 0.50 ppm; the nitrates on the other hand fluctuated between 10 - 40 ppm. I think Hollowman's suggestion of first timer's chemical buffering may have been my major mistake and perhaps you're correct that the tank needed to be cycled for longer than three weeks. The day my discus died I had been away overnight and come home in the morning to find the tank totally cloudy and the fish attempting to breathe up the top; took them out and put them in a bucket of water and rapidly did a wc of about 80% - pretty sure that the tank was still clouding, although after the w/c? Cleaned the filter but all to no avail as the discus did not survive the day. Having read the diskusucht pdf's that Hollowman put me onto I feel a bit more confident of trying again and perhaps this time, as you suggested, cycling the tank longer than three weeks?

[Hollowman]

Krissy,

Cycling a tank can take up to 6 weeks before it is mature. How did you cycle it? For example, when I cycled my sump filter for my system, I was adding neat ammonia to the water to kickstart the cycle. Some people in Aus will add a shrimp into the water and as it rots it gives off ammonia (quite smelly) but it will start the cycle and with daily checks you will see the ammonia levels start to lower and the nitrates get back to around 10-25 too. I will try and find a post about proper cycling for you to try next time.

[Hollowman]

Here is one thread


http://www.discusforums.com/forum/showthread.php?19281-best-way-to-cycle-new-tank&highlight=Sump

[shiney2512]

Here's another link

http://m.wikihow.com/Cycle-a-Fish-Tank

[Hollowman]

I would recommend the fish less cycle

[Krissy]

Took me a bit to recall as this all occurred at the beginning of the year around February. This is what I remember...I was advised to use API Quick Start by the store I purchased the fish from and Amazon extract. I used the 'Quick Start' to start the tank up. My pH prior to the purchase of the fish was continually rising to around 7.4 - 7.8 so I was using pH Down throughout the three weeks and nitrate down etc. I could go on and on as I was testing the water every day and in and out of the pet shop with water samples; going home with new products (all on advice from the store). The store was insistent that I had to get my pH to the magical number of 6.8. I think now, with the later advice and reading of the docs from the website you put me onto that I just didn't give the tank time to cycle well enough plus it was an over buffering of chemicals. My tank has been continually running now since the loss of the discus and my two corydoras are as happy as larks. I purchased a 150 litre tank and a RO system (which I've yet to run). I was considering just trying again with just my bore water rather than going to a combination of bore and RO as being able to just do wc from the tap would be a lot easier. in terms of the water hardness that I posted at the beginning of my post for help - do you think the fish would adjust to this hardness or would I be better to install the RO system and use a combination of RO and bore? I haven't read your link on cycling a tank yet but will do so now. Thanks again for all your help.

[Krissy]

Thanks Shiney, reading both links now. Thanks again for your help.

[shiney2512]

If possible try and keep it simple as possible with you water, especially with constant water changes, discus don't like ph fluctuations , (unless it above 8.2 or below 5.5, i wouldn't touch it).

Constant water changes - 2 x 30% weekly will help to keep your nitrates down. Make sure you use a water conditioner, preheat the water and age the water for atleast 24 hours before doing a water change.

I havent had to use an RO unit yet , so I can't give you advice on RO to bore water ratios - have a look through the forum , to find information on this.

And the most important thing is try and buy good quality discus - I can give you some recommendations if needed, where abouts are you located ?

If your on Facebook , look up Gold Coast Discus, Aussie discus keepers pages and another great website for information is http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forum.php

[Krissy]

Thanks Shiney. I'm going to give trying just the bore water and aging it in the water tank I purchased, (this is sealed so should be ideal). I've just enquired with the approp Govt Dept up here (in the NT) for a 'translocation permit' as the variety available in Darwin and the quality isn't that great. Hopefully I'll be able to obtain the permit to purchase from an interstate dealer. I'm in the rural area outside of Darwin. Wouldn't mind recommendations of where to buy good quality discus; once I know if the permit is approved (required in the NT to purchase discus from interstate) I'd like to get in contact with some reputable suppliers. I'm only looking at a grouping of 10 and have decided to purchase a bigger tank (398 L) with sump filter so they have as much room as possible to move and feel comfortable. Appreciate suggestions of suppliers however will look up Gold Coast Discus as you suggest. Cheers Krissy

[shiney2512]

Appreciate suggestions of suppliers however will look up Gold Coast Discus as you suggest. Cheers Krissy


When your ready to buy discus speak to Darren Thomson, from the Gold Coast Discus, great quality discus and very knowledgeable , and he ships them across Australia.

[Krissy]

I'm ecstatic as after months of deliberating and the last few weeks in getting the RO system up and running I now have a 1000 litre tank holding RO water with the following parameters:

ph 6.4 ppm , zilch in everything else. GH & KH reads at 1 degree or 17.9 ppm.

I've aged (28 hrs) some test samples of RO/Bore with the results being pleasing:

Mix RO 60/40 Bore pH 7.4 ppm , GH 1degree 17.9 ppm ,KH 5 degree 89.5 ppm
Mix RO 80/20 Bore pH 7.2 ppm , GH & KH 1 degree 17.9 ppm

Just need to work out if I go with the 80/20 mix whether I need to use the RO mineral buffer or whether the combination of mix will have sufficient minerals in it? Waiting on the arrival of discus books which may or may not answer this question. Purchased a 400 litre aquareef tank with sump filter (unfortunately arrived damaged and currently waiting a replacement) then I can start the fish less cycling of it for eight weeks and then hopefully I'll be a discus owner again (but this time with more success)