Water change problems - help needed please

[Ziggy]

I know we're supposed to do regular big water changes and I know why but I'm having problems every time I do even a 25% water change in my 700L. The discus spend 24 hours not eating and laying on their side each time after a 25% change.

I can't age the water first(nowhere to keep it and too far to pump it anyway) so when doing any water change I meticulously keep the temp the same, dechlorinate, keep the pH the same (as much as poss) etc. 10% changes they cope with no problem but anything more than that and they keel over. I lost one youngster overnight after a 25% water change yesterday and the others were looking very I'll for several hours.

So clearly the tap water has massive differences to the water in the tank but I can't figure out what. I've been doing 10% water changes instead and more frequently but too afraid to go any more than that. Can anyone throw any ideas my way about what I might be doing wrong or how to resolve the problem?

My water change regime:
1. Place hose (special one just for the fish) in the tank and siphon off the water gently.
2. In a bucket, I prepare Prime and add it to water with enough to dose the entire tank as instructions dictate. I gently add that to the tank.
3. Then I use the hose to add water back into the tank taking care to use water mixed to the right temp from the taps.

My tap water is about 7.2 pH and I have learnt not to bother trying keep the pH buffered at 6.5 or so because with water changes it just swings back and that upsets them. They seem very able to cope with pH at a higher level so I don't think pH swing is the problem.

Ammonia= 0
Nitrites = 0
Nitrates usually around 5 ppm.
9 discus (8 now), 5 clown loaches, 1 royal, whiptail, 1 angelfish, 1 dwarf gourami, 1 peppermint bristlenose and the clean up crew of 4 corycats and a couple of ottos.
I vacuum 4 times a week using an eheim battery vac (best invention ever!)
700L, 6ft tank with two cannister filters.

I'm at a loss about how to do any water change greater than 10% given how it seriously affects the discus. Help really appreciated.
Thanks,
Ziggy

[oldmanmike56]

adelaide tap water is always going to be a problem..

its hard, its alkaline.....basically its rubbish for discus (imho)

Only suggestion I could make is get a water tank and harvest rainwater.
Rainwater will be more acidic than you want it but combined with some aged tap water you should be able to arrive at a pH and hardness the kiddies can better cope with. When I was living in a more space limited place, Bunnings had a green wheelie bin that I fitted a tap to the bottom of to use for water storage....sat next to my other bins and didn't take up a lot of space.

I have the luxury of melbourne water, while its not as good as it used to be, it comes out of the tap relatively soft and with a neutral pH. All the conditioning I do is to leave it in a bath tub ( most domestic bathtubs hold about 220-250ltrs ) outside in the sun for a day or 2 to remove the chlorine. Chlorine dissipates when the water is left out in the sun, negating the need for chemicals..always a good thing, not tainting the water with rubbish expensive chemicals. I then bring the water inside to a 150ltr tank that contains some plants and over the course of a day bring the temperature up to 80 F with an aquarium heater.

Note. Sun removes chlorine, sunlight does not / cannot remove chloramines. Check with the local waterboard to find out what rubbish they taint your tap water with.

BTW. I change 15 % of tank water every 2nd day. Fry tanks, 10% daily.

The above works for me, and while I am happy to share what I have learned, you have to arrive at your own procedures and systems that will work for you.
What I have found out over the years is keeping discus is all about supplying them with the right conditions....clean, soft, slightly acidic water is a big part of that.

[TheFish]

Sorry if i have misinterpreted, but are you adding Prime in somewhat ad-hoc as you fill the tank with the hose?

It is preferable to first treat the tapwater with prime, then move that body of water into the tank, rather than simply dumping it all in at the same time.

Dumping the prime and tap water in at the same time would not ensure an even dispersion and your fish may be suffering mild effects from chlorine/chloramine burns.

On the contrary, too much Prime (due to ineffective dispersion) could also be harming the fish that swim through a section of water with too much Prime in it.


Solution: mix prime and water in bucket before adding back to the tank. Surely you have enough space for a 70 litre bin in front of the tank to fill with water and prime (effectively mixing the two), and then using a pump or your canister filter to pump the water out of the bucket into the tank.

[Ziggy]

Hi folks and thanks for those thoughts. I recognise that aged water would probably be helpful but The logistics of having aged water and then pumping it into the tank is an utter nightmare where I live. Hubby and I have thought about how it could be done where we live and just ant work out how to make it work here.

However, what I have done today is organised a triple filter system to be attached to the hose outlet so that the water change wAter will be filtered thus reducing any chlorine issues (although I will still ad Prime anyway just to make sure). I'm hoping that this will help.

Even though I've been adding Prime (mixed in a bucket if water) and adding that to the tank before or as the hose water is being put into the tank, I've been wondering if the chemical denatureing of the chlorine and chloramine isn't activated correctly because it has to operate within the yank rather than before it hits the tank which means the fish are still subjected to chlorine etc before the Prime can denature it.

So the inline filter goes on to the tap tomorrow and I will see how that goes. If I still have problems after that, I will need to go to to step you suggest of getting perhaps a wheelie bin, adding the filtered water to that and letting it age for a couple of days and then somehow work out how to pump it into the tank. For the life of me I can't work out how to do that though given the tank is in the lounge, the are steps into the house so we can't wheel a water holdingtank in to the house and I can't figure out the logistics of pumping the water from about 50 feet. Where there's a will, there's a way though I guess so I may need to pick your brains about that at some point in the next few weeks. :)

Will keep you all posted :)

[Ziggy]

I've been pondering your suggestions and trying to work out how to do this. How does this sound?

1. Inline filter on the outside tap (which is being plumbed in tomorrow) and then use that filtered water to full up a wheelie bin (with a tap added to the bottom of the bin- brilliant suggestion thanks!)
Will any plastic residue from a wheelie bin harm the fish?

2. Leave that water in the wheelie bin for 48 hours or so to age and add Prime to it as well just to make doubly sure. Heat the water with a spare heater I have.

3. Use my special fish hose to drain some water from the tank as I do now.

4. Attach the hose to the tap fitting at the base if the wheelie bin, turn the tap on and refill the tank with the aged water.

Would that work do you reckon given the distance (50 feet) that it has to travel from where the bin would be and where the tank is and that it has to go up hill to the lounge in the house? Surely the force of the water in the wheelie bin would push the water slightly uphill and into the tank?

This dilemma is doing my head in! :)

[TheFish]

I dont think the pressure from the wheelie bin will be enough to be honest. A proper water pump from bunnings used to clear out basements in times of flooding can be purchased from $50 and would do the trick.

Whilst ageing water is ideal, its not essential.

Just buy a 70 litre garbage bin, and on water change day, sit that in front of the tank, fill it with water and prime, and then pump that into the tank, or use small buckets to scoop the water in (this is killer on your back though).

^That is the easiest solution in my mind.

[oldmanmike56]

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but Professor Julius Summer Miller says....water will not flow uphill.

I use a pond pump that I bought on ebay for about $30 to provide the assistance and while a little slow, it works.

I have click fittings on both inlet and outlet so I use it to pump the 'aged and up to temp' water out of the holding tank into the fish tanks and then reverse it to help drag the replacement water in from outside because the genius that designed and built the stand for the bathtub wasn't too careful setting the levels and didn't build the bathtub stand high enough ( laughing at oneself here )

[Ziggy]

Right, gotcha. Yep I figured the goi uphill bit wouLd be a problem. :) seems to define the laws of gravity, chuckle.

Ok, so a pump it is then. I will need darling husband to work out how to get that to operate but I'm sure his genius can work something out. :) at least I hope so :)

I ginkgo we can get it to work if I have the wheelie bin outside the back door somewhere, filled with the filtered water for a couple of days and then somehow use the pump to push the aged water up into the tank.

Do I need to aerate the water to help the gas off process or can I trust that Prime will do the major chloramine and chlorine job? I assume no the ageing process will also assist with stabilising the tank pH parameters too.

Darling hubby doesn't appreciate yet how much more work there is to figure out with all this yet bless his cotton socks! Giggle.

Thanks folks for helping me figure this out. Will let you know how we go. :)

[Ziggy]

Oh, while if think of it... The wheelie bin I buy, should I try and find something made of any particular plastic. In other words, will the plastic from an ordinary wheelie bin release any toxins which could be lethal to the fish?

[Old Dave]

If you want to test plastic to see if it might be unsuitable just wet your finger and then rub it a little on the plastic. Now for the taste test. If what is on your finger leaves a taste when dabbed on your tongue it probably isn't food safe and needs to be avoided.

When doing your water changes don't be in a hurry. Take your time and fewer things go wrong. Mix slowly if possible. As you can see from so many posts on this forum, good planning avoids bad problems.

If 25%pw is a problem, reduce the quantity and increase the frequency.
The rules aren't written in stone.

Enjoy your discus,
hth,
Dave

[Merrilyn]

Ziggy, one thought comes to mind. Are you using the hot tap to adjust your water temp, and if so how old is your hot water service and pipes. You may have a copper liner in your HWS or the pipes may be old, and leeching copper into the water.

Never use water from the HWS to adjust temp, boil the jug and add it to the bucket or if you find that too difficult, it's safer to just use cold water, but only change a small amount at a time. Try not to make it too difficult for yourself, because it becomes a huge chore after a while, and you'll find you will be skipping water changes.

Remind me again, how big is your tank, and how many fish do you have, and have you tested the pH straight out of your tap, compared to the pH of your tank. There is something really wrong if your fish are acting so badly after a water change.

[Ziggy]

Thanks Merilyn and Dave.
Yep, sometimes I have been using the hot tap to regulate the temperature so I'll stop doing that from here on in. However, that means the water would be cold when replaced and would chill them. Does that mean I need to put a heater in the water tank I plan on getting to age the water too? I have a spare heater and could do it but it is starting to get a bit complicated I reckon now. Happy to do it and if I can get a simple system set up then it would help.

Merilyn, the big tank is 700L and that's my problem tank. That's the one which the discus are in and which is posing the problem. I've lost 2 discus since I did the last water change (25% done twice, one day after the other) having been doing only 10% water changes about 3 times a week prior to that. I did the bigger water changes because my nitrates had crept up to 20ppm but normally I would just do 10% 3 times a week.

Also in the tank with the now 7 discus are 5 clown loaches, 1 angelfish, 1 royal whiptail, 1 peppermint bristlenose, 1 dwarf gourami, 4 Corey cats and 2 remaining ottos.

Darling hubby has installed a three phase filter on the tap I use to fill the 700L discus tank so that will help a little I hope (although I will still add Prime) and I'm now researching to find a food safe water holding tank about 250L to age water in somewhere outside. Then I can use that with the heater, the spare air stone and add Prime to that before pumping that to the big tank.

I think pH is a massive contributing factor here as well and I'm hoping the aged water will eliminate or at least reduce any potential pH swing from a water change. I don't add buffers to my tank water because I find they then swing wildly with water changes and so I've always felt it safer to haver higher than best pH but have it more stable rather than have it wildly swinging. However, I wonder if the water from the tap is different pH to that which has been sitting in the discus tank and so is swinging too much anyway and that when I do a 25% change the pH swing is too much (certainly more than it would be when I only do a 10%).

So my next step is to test the water straight from the tap and also from the discus tank and see what the difference is. I did this about 2 years ago and have completely forgotten what it was but the was a difference and so I figured aged water would help with that too. So with the new filter on the tap, an aged water holding tank with Prime etc dosed in that, I'm hoping I may have licked the problem. Will keep you posted. Does that sound about right?

Thanks heaps :)

[Ghoti]

Hi Ziggy,

I think getting my head around water quality and water changes was the biggest challenge when I first started with discus...and I had the benefit of soft Melbourne water.

My salvation came in the form of some modest ebay purchases:
A 250lt drum, ex Olive imports, 'won' for $15.
A pond pump, from Hong Kong, at around $30.
A food-safe water hose, 15m for $20.

Then a trip down to Bunnings for an extension lead and some 'click fittings. Dropped in at the LFS on the way home and picked up an Aqua-One 300w heater for $25.

I cut a length of food-safe hose, around 1.5m, attached one end to the pond pump and the other to a click fitting for ease of connection to a garden hose. Cut a small hole in the lid of the drum and passed the food safe hose, heater and pump power cord through, then popped the pump and heater into the drum.

To fill I simply connected garden hose to the click fitting and turned on the tap. The extension lead was used to power the heater, and when ready to transfer the water to my tank I simply connected my tank-filling hose (the rest of the food safe hose) via the click fitting, unplugged the heater and plugged in the pump.

I have since upgraded my system with the addition of an air stone, and a filter intake pipe on the end of my water change hose to make sure it stays in place during filling (the pond pump seems slow until the hose falls out of the tank and water starts being pumped all over the floor :oops: ).

Cheers.,
Scott

[Ziggy]

Thanks so much Ghoti, great info and advice.

The three ohase filter is now on the garden tap and i brought the 200L water holding tank home this afternoon. Its one of those Food grade olive containers that i got off gumtree for $20 thanks to a link that Hooked on this forum gave me, bless him :)
Now to clean it out and get it ready. The plan will be very similar to what you suggest. It will sit beside our patio door outside next to a power point and I will fill it from the now filtered garden tap. I have a spare air stone and a spare heater so will use those in it. I figured I might insulate it with polystyrene to help keep the water heated in the water.
I have to go and buy a pond pump tomorrow to pump the water, once aged up to the discus tank.
It will be experimentation i suspect for a few weeks but I'm hoping this will resolve the issue now, especially having lost 4 discus this week from last weeks water change disaster. Fingers crossed and thanks so much for all the advice.
:)

[Old Dave]

Ziggy,

If you have issues trying to keep the airstone on the bottom of the container (most effective) you could use an old sponge filter (without the sponge) instead.

This will avoid any potential contaminates you might be tempted to use as weights.

hth,

Dave