7 dead discus!!!

[Mr.Tang]

:cry: :( :x
I carried out routine maintenace on my planted discus tank last night and woke up this morning to 7 dead discus (2 Adults, 2 Teens & 3 Babies) and three dead algae eaters. My loaches and cardinals and red finned tetras are all fine.

First thing check PH - 7.0
Next check ammonia - 0
check temp - 28
check all equipment - fine

Yesterday I went into LFS and asked about a phosphate remover to reduce green algae on glass - spoke to a lady that breeds discus and she sold me a GREEN-X form HAGEN. Said she uses them all the time with her discus in planted tanks. Said I should put 3 packs in my CF after all other media - Said one bag does 100 litres and that she has three bags in her std 4'. I did my math and thought 3 would be overkill so I used 2. This is the only thing I can think of that could be the cause.

Routine maintenance consisted of cleaning glass, 25% daily W/C and trim plants.

BTW the fish did not look like they had been thrashing about - no damage - most color & red eyes. They looked like they had just been paralised in an instant.

Question - Can anyone tell me if I committed mass murder?

Also - I'd like to add that although I have not posted many msgs on this forum, I have been absorbing as much info from you guys and girls as possible of the last 18 months. I respect your opinions so I would like you to express them here before I go back to that lady and go off!! :evil:

[Ben]

Sorry to hear about the bad news, my heart goes out to you.
I am not sure about that product but others might.... I am sure she would not sell it to you, if it would do even the slighest amout of harm.

This might be a long shot but it had happened to me, When i was living in queensland i had a small fish tank withgoldfish, they were doing fine and had them for 6 months, the same thing happened and they were all dead when i got home from work, well! i found out that my house mate had used 1/2 can of fly spray on a huntsman! In another room.
so the residue must have made its way into the water! i was very pissed off!
so could it of happened to you? but in saying that the tetras are ok?

lets see what some other people think......

Ben

[heckelboy]

That is just horrible. The only explanation is Green-X. It is the only new variable in the equation.

[Mr.Tang]

Prodigydiscus - Thanks for the fast reply and for the condolences...

My wife knows not to use any sprays (even hair spray and deodorant) within a fifty foot radius of the tanks so I am positive it wasn't that. You got me thinking though so I checked the tank again for any bugs that may have gotten into the tank (maybe after walking through a roach bait) but couldn't find any.

I have read that others have had success with the Hagen Green-X so maybe it isn't the prob.

It's bad enough thinking of the $$$$$$ and time I have invested in those little guys but even though I can save up $ and spend more time - I just can't replace em. :( And when I don't know where I went wrong it makes me wanna give up altogether.

Thanks again for the quick reply

[Dee]

Hi Mr.Tang,

Very sorry to hear about your loss mate :(

2 questions ...

1. Is there anything else you did differently from normal, add anything else to the tank ?

2. What are the contents of GREEN-X ? active ingrediants etc?

Cheers,

Dee.

[Mr.Tang]

1. Added two new plants that were from quarantine tank, then rinsed in new batch of tank water, then added to tank.

2. From the side of the box - (the only english writing on the box)
Green-X reduces many of the compounds that encourage algae growth. It absorbs and traps phosphate, nitrit and nitrate within its matrix. Makes maintenace easy blah blah blah.... and can be placed in canister filter, HOB, Internal and wet/dry. No instructions inside and no mention of active ingredients in any other language (that I can make it).

Checked Hagen's web site and got this:

A-1348 Phosphate Remover - Box


- 3 x 100 g pouches
- Each pouch reats 100 l of water
- 3 pouches per display box

[Ben]

Mr Tang, please dont give up on keeping discus, if you/we/others can find out the cause, use this as a learning experience so it wont happen again.

Keep an eye out on the tetras for any signs that might help us find the cause.
And please keep us posted.

Ben

[pitchblack]

hey Mr Tang I haver used the same green x for the past month and it doesnt cause the fish to die I can tell you that. What was the water like, cloudy and did you add any other chemicals in with your water change that caused your fish to die. It happened to me and the nitrate was at 160ppm ask prodigydisucs we were on the phone and the net most of the night fixing the problem??? Good luck

[Mr.Tang]

Water was crystal clear and still is. Nitrate was 40ppm. The only chemicals ever added to my tank are water ager/dechlorinater and ferts. My doses on both have not change in the last 3 months.

[goldenpigeon]

hi mr.tang did you use any ph down or plant ferts or anything ? if you put ph down in the tank it is very possible that you put to much and you in a way nuked the tank. this has happened to me before and they keel over as quick as clicking your fingers.

sorry about your huge loss.

[Chafule]

might have had some other chemical on ur hands or equipment before u did ur daily W/C? Do u smoke? might have had nicotene(spelling) on ur fingers.

[Proteus]

OMG, I am so sorry to hear of your loss :cry:

This may sound silly, but are your heaters in the tank (just asking in case they are in-line or sump heaters)...

It might be an idea to check the conductivity of the water... I realise this may sound strange, but if there is any power leakage, that could play a part in things, maybe a power surge just pushed things over the edge...

Apart from that, which is a long ask, the introduction of a poison or toxin of some sort... in the air, or on your hands.

Several people who have seen me feed my fish think I am kind of anal, as I NEVER handle any of the food... dry food is either dispensed by the auto feeder, or for snacks I have a plastic spoon which is only ever rinsed in aged water (I know, extra cautious, but hey...). When I feed frozen food, I used the non powdered surgical gloves as I get irritated by Bloodworms, and again to protect the fish.

Anyway, just another thought, and once again, sorry for your loss

[Mr.Tang]

Thanks for the replies, but no - nothing else was added. I always double dose on dechlorinator and have been fertilising the tank for the last 3 months at the same rate - always below the reccommended level. Yeah I smoke (ciggies) but have done so for the past 15 years and have never had a prob. BTW - always wash my hands in premade tank water before putting them in the tanks.

Some things must just happen for a reason - maybe I am meant to own a home instead of discus - lol.

Nah seriously, I just wish I knew what caused this - why just the discus and SAE's and not the tetras??

[Mr.Tang]

Proteus - how do I check for conductivity??

[Proteus]

um one of those voltage meters with probes I think....

[Merrilyn]

Don't think one of those probes will work (you mean a volt meter?). You would have to find something specific to measure voltage in water. I would think a small fish would be more likely to die with stray current in the water, than a larger fish.

Mr Tang, I'm so sorry for your loss. Give me some time to do some research and see what I can come up with. It has to be something that is common to both discus and SAEs for them to be affected and the tetras to be immune. Maybe the slime coating, or something like that. Nothing comes immediately to mind, so time to hit the books.

[goldenpigeon]

GO MERRILYN!!! THATS WHAT WE LIKE TO SEE AN ENTHOUSIASTIC FISH KEEPER !!! :)

[weird]

Is it possible to have water tested to see if there is anything nasty in it ?

Professionally tested that is, if it is not something obvious like ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates ? Someone must be able to perfrom a service like that cause I am sure it would be used in many industries ... be good to know so you can avoid it in the future.

[pitchblack]

Thought it might be the nitrate. Happened to me but luckly I Saved some of them my nitrate was at 160ppm. Chech your filter, how long ago was it serviced. It might not be running propelry, fish just dont die. There must be something.Drop the rate of fertilizer your adding that may help

[leanne31]

Sorry to hear that its a hard one your nitrates a bit high but dont think thats the problem you said you did a wc do you age your water and if so where, could something of happened to your water as in got something in it that you didnt know of and you said you tested for nitrates what about ammonia and nitrites are they ok.

Leanne

[wild_amazon]

This happened to my discus long time ago. I had cover glass on the tank and I moved a spraybar to reduce water movement. It suffocated the fish and they died the next day. Did you reduced the water flow or surface movement?

[duck]

That hurt's
Personally i don't add anything like nitrite remover, phosphate remover or anything else for that matter in my filters.

I've heard these products if not cleaned or changed reguarly they can leach back into the trank.

The only thing i can think of,Is it absorbed as much as it can then it dumped it back in the tank all at once which wouldn't be very good.
It's possible.

[Kaza]

I think wild amazon may be right, maybe the stuff you added to the water, effected the oxygen levels avaliable, added to this the hot weather which reduces avaliable oxygen. Maybe the oxygen levels were already low and this just tipped it over the edge.

I know I have a 4 foot tank, which at that time had 6 4 inch discus plus neons. They were in this tank for 6 months when one day I came home from uni and all the discus were gasping for air. I immediately added an airstone. Now the only change was the weather was hot and I had added a bit more water than I normally added, which then caused the water coming in, to not break the water surface.
As long as the water surface is broken creating airbubbles I was fine, from that point on I made sure a airstone is going 24- 7. No more porblems. I am not sure if this is your problem or not, however i it was me I would be checking every thing.
I do feel for you, we put so much time, effect and care into these fish that it can be quite devestating when they die.

[Ben]

Mr Tang, how are the remainding fish today?
any more clues to what happened?
Ben

[Mr.Tang]

Hi guys and gals, all remaining fish are loving it (16 cardinals and three red finned tetras all in a planted 55G) and look healthier than ever.

I considered getting a post mortem done on one of the discus but don't really have the money handy. Will get the water tested on next day off, probably thursday so will keep you all posted.

I have checked absoloutely all equipment and have looked for ANYTHING foreign in the tank. I don't have kids and didn't have guests over so I can only put it down to "The Killer Cardinals and their murderous rampage" - LOL. (Trying to keep a smile on my dial.
I am blessed with water that comes out of the tap at PH7.0 so I ONLY EVER ADD DECHLORINATOR - it isn't aged but i have had no problems for the past 18 months. Also bare in mind that on the same day i carried out same maintenance (bar the Green-X and plant trimming) on my 4' Tropheus tank and had no casualties.

The funeral was a sad event but all who attended (me) stayed strong. They will rest in peace in my back yard.

Thanks go out to all of you for you help and support etc. Now if anyone has any ideas on how to convince the wife to give it another go or if anyone has any juvies they are willing to part with on the cheaper side it'd be great.

I am not giving up yet - but will monitor tank conditions for the next week just to check for any changes.

[Ben]

Mr Tang, which state are you in? some of us might be able to help you out when your tank gets the all clear.

R.I.P our little discus friends,
Ben

[Mr.Tang]

I'm in NSW and am keen and determined to get some more discus in the next couple of weeks. I am in NSW and aren't expecting charitable prices - just fair ones. Don't really know if this should go in the classifieds but what the hey...

Would prefer solid colors preferably blues, whites & reds. Will need a couple of weeks to save $$$$ so have a think about it. Am willing to start with juvies and grow em up to save $$$.

And I promise you all that they will be looked after.

This loss of mine is the first loss in 18 months. (Lost 1 pedgeon blood to bullying when I first started out.)

Thanks again all. :wink:

[goldenpigeon]

thats the spirit mate! i would trust you with my most prized fish! i luv it when people dont give up!

[shrimp paste]

Very sad and makes me nervous as a newbie. However, i have already learnt something from your misfortunes Mr Tang during this post, and I thank you and everyone else for that.

I never wash my hands in tank water prior to maintenance, and am a smoker. (this will change)
I age my water in my garage which could introduce harmful chemicals and gases (this will change)
Even though things look good, you can be on the verge of catastrophy, so care and thought must be taken on each action. I remembered i forgot to rinse my Green X before introducing it to the filter, no side effects but that could have hurt.

Again, sorry for your loss, but others have learnt from it already, and i love your fighting attitude.

Haz.

[Ben]

Haz, good thinking with the thoughts!
"prevention is better than cure"

One this we all need to think about is to keep it simple, Maybe we need to watch what we put into the water, there are a million additives that can be used in fish tanks for every different problem.

Aquariums are an eco system, so we need to keep everything in balance and maybe look for more natural alternatives when faced with a problem.

Mr Tang, great spirit and if you were in Melbourne i would have given you an early Xmas present!

Cheers,
Ben

[jwight]

Just a stab in the dark but was there an oiuly film on the top of the water? Did you trim the plants with suspect scissors? Using hot water from a tap can be dangerous as it goes through different pipes whcih introduce heavby metals (That is what I have read or heard I've never had any problems)

[Bill T.]

After reading all this I'm wonderring about:
* a bad batch of Green X - talk to the manufacturer?
* a power outage during the night which could have allowed an ammonia/nitrite spike & reduced oxgen & temp. change? By the morning when the power is back on, all parameters have returned to normal?
* maybe you hit a patch of anearobic bacteria in the substrate? Distrubing this, I'm told, could relelase nasty toxins into your water.
* virus or bacteria - bad luck!

Perhaps you could get a couple of not so expensive discus & see how they cope. If they collapse, then there must be some toxin or pathogen in your system.

[Trebs]

I've used green-x with discus a fair bit. I have used it to mop-up nitrite with young fry before I started culturing my own bacteria with fishless cycle.

[buddlefish]

I think Leanne is on to something sydney water is not the best do you test the water befor and after water changes.Are thay doing any work on any water pipes around you area or any renovations going on.A few years ago this happened to me but lucy i test my water befor the ph was in the 9 range were nornally it is 7ish.very sorry about your loss.
dont give up Matt